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The group of defensemen

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Old
01-13-2012, 12:10 PM
  #1
Aurel Joliat
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The group of defensemen

Gauthier said last night that he made the trade to get bigger up front because we were too small. It's true and it's a good trade. I'm happy he realizes this weakness even if it's 1 year too late...

But what about the D ? It's the smallest group I ever saw in Montreal. They are soft, not very offensive and make a ton of mistakes. He must rebuild the entire defence.

I checked what we looked like a couple of years ago (03-04)
Souray (toughness, PP, size)
Brisebois (PP)
Markov (PP)
Bouillon (PK, heart, grit)
Rivet (PK, toughness, size)
Quintal (PK, toughness, size)
Komisarek (prospect, toughness, size)

I really think it was a great defence and that's the way it should be build for the future.

Right now it's :
Markov (always injured)
Gorges (PK, heart)
Subban (PP, prospect)
Diaz (puck moving)
Kaberle (PP)
Gill (PK, size but not tough)
Emelin (toughness)
Weber (PP)
Campoli (?)
St-Denis (puck moving)

They all have only 1 strenght. They are very unidimensional. Nobody in this group can clear the front of the net or protect a teammate... Even offensively they are behind what we had in the past.

We are the only team in the NHL to have a defence build this way and we can't say it's a success...

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01-13-2012, 12:16 PM
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ClasslessGuy
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We have to many offensive minded player on the defense and it is not a secret for anybody (I hope)

Subban Gorges
Markov Emelin
Kaberle Player X (someone who can hit hard and stay at home)
Diaz

Couple of game for: Tinordi, Beaulieu, St-Denis

That should be our plan for next year because we can't get rid of Kaberle

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01-13-2012, 12:16 PM
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Not keeping The Beard and O'Byrne were big mistakes. Imagine these 2 with Emelin and then having your 3 puck moving guys.

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01-13-2012, 12:17 PM
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Tinordi is in the pipelines and is mean, but doesn't have much offensive prowess.

I do agree they need someone with skill and size, but I think a little part of me believes that Emelin can fill that role with Markov on the top pairing.
The 2nd pairing has to be Gorges and Subban which as far as 2nd pairings go have all the needed elements with poise, speed, grit and defensive abilities.
The 3rd pairing is where we get in trouble and without our top defenseman right now in Markov playing they are forced to play more then they should. Unless Kaberle can be dealt somehow he'll be there with a another puck moving defenseman in either Diaz or Weber next season. That is where I agree we need an upgrade in size and grit. Bryan Allen would fit the bill but to make room someone would need to be moved, my guess would be Weber.

So go into next season with, barring anymore injuries or prolongation of current injuries

Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Subban
Kaberle-Allen
Diaz

I can live with that going forward. But the forward group needs work, since our lottery pick from this draft (cross your fingers) will be a year or two from being the stud we need upfront.

Just my $0.02 though.

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01-13-2012, 12:18 PM
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DekeLikeYouMeanIt
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OMG you really thought that was a GREAT defence?! Unreal. That was one of the ********* d corps in the league. And for good reason.

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01-13-2012, 12:21 PM
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Andy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GinoCyber View Post
Not keeping The Beard and O'Byrne were big mistakes. Imagine these 2 with Emelin and then having your 3 puck moving guys.
I just still don't understand the constant bringing up of O'byrne as some sort of Demi-god. When he was here everyone on this board hated him because he was flat out terrible.

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01-13-2012, 12:22 PM
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Patccmoi
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Well to me what we should have if Markov ever comes back is:

Markov (PP, all-around solid)
Subban (PP, all-around solid)
Emelin (toughness/defense)
Gorges (PK, very good defense)
Diaz/Weber/Kaberle (PMD, can keep 2 out of 3 including 7th D)
UFA (or trade) with toughness and physicality that can play on the PK

So really all I think we need is to get one solid D with toughness that can clear the net to replace Gill. Emelin added a lot on the side of toughness and making people pay.

I think we can quickly have a very solid D core in Montreal. I hate being stuck with Kaberle's contract though, because I would've rather slightly overpay for a solid D with size and toughness than another PMD, we have enough of those in the system (Beaulieu will come up eventually too).

Emelin and Diaz should still improve quite a bit too, it's still only their first year in the league, many thought Diaz would only play in Hamilton...

But if Markov doesn't come back, then it's more complicated, we can keep Diaz, Weber and Kaberle but they're not nearly as good all-around as Markov was.

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01-13-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I just still don't understand the constant bringing up of O'byrne as some sort of Demi-god. When he was here everyone on this board hated him because he was flat out terrible.
Agreed. It's one of those HFboards things that drives you nuts.

Imo they should have re-signed Hamrlik and obviously the Markov fiasco was a big screw up. They went into the season with basically no experience at all on the back end. I knew the D would be horrible in September.

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01-13-2012, 12:29 PM
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habs03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasslessGuy View Post
We have to many offensive minded player on the defense and it is not a secret for anybody (I hope)

Subban Gorges
Markov Emelin
Kaberle Player X (someone who can hit hard and stay at home)
Diaz

Couple of game for: Tinordi, Beaulieu, St-Denis

That should be our plan for next year because we can't get rid of Kaberle
This, we should have enough cap space after resigning everyone to add a 3-4M stay at home D-men, Tim Gleason or Bryan Allen as "Habsawce suggested.

But in regards to "getting rid of Kaberle", really, 9 points in 14 games only a -2 as a Hab. His cap hit isn't bad, its the price for a good 4-5 D-men, it only takes 6.75% of the cap.

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01-13-2012, 12:29 PM
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Kirk Muller
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Even with Markov the defense isnt anything special. Montreal still needs a tough SOB top pairing defenseman.

Realistically Subban and Gorges should be your number two pairing. Emelin and Diaz your 3 pairing. Markov and a stay at home, big physical defensmen your first pairing.

Kaberle can be driven to the air port, sent on a boat or hell a fricken inner tube out of Montreal.

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01-13-2012, 12:29 PM
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If we could clean up the D to look something like this i would be happy

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Kaberle - Sarich

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01-13-2012, 12:30 PM
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Aurel Joliat
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
OMG you really thought that was a GREAT defence?! Unreal. That was one of the ********* d corps in the league. And for good reason.
You had everything in this D corp : a big shot for the PP, 2 players to give him the puck, at least 1 guy with a lot of size and toughness on every pairs

I want Jim Vandermeer next year...

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01-13-2012, 12:30 PM
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Et le But
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I'm more worried about our lack of fundamentals back there than the lack of grit. Gorges is the only consistent decision maker.

Also, O'byrne sucks.

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01-13-2012, 12:33 PM
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I just still don't understand the constant bringing up of O'byrne as some sort of Demi-god. When he was here everyone on this board hated him because he was flat out terrible.
I never wanted him out, even after scoring in his own net. I personally think he was always in JM's dog house for no reason when compared to the blatant mistakes the vets were making.

Also, he was the 1st to drop the gloves when he had to and was always the most physical.

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01-13-2012, 12:33 PM
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Habsawce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Even with Markov the defense isnt anything special. Montreal still needs a tough SOB top pairing defenseman.

Realistically Subban and Gorges should be your number two pairing. Emelin and Diaz your 3 pairing. Markov and a stay at home, big physical defensmen your first pairing.

Kaberle can be driven to the air port, sent on a boat or hell a fricken inner tube out of Montreal.
I think in today's NHL you ideally want your top pairing to get the puck and move it out as fast as possible. It's all about puck possession and Markov-Emelin both have good hands and skating ability. The only problem is they're both left handed. I'm not sure a banger is really beneficial to the top pairing. Size and skill is essential though. Like Brent Burns, or Seabrook. Where they are tough but can still skate and handle the puck.

It's interesting going forward though, and who knows maybe we'll be drafting Murray or Dumba and they can come in after next year and be a stud for us.

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01-13-2012, 12:41 PM
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Andy
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Originally Posted by GinoCyber View Post
I never wanted him out, even after scoring in his own net. I personally think he was always in JM's dog house for no reason when compared to the blatant mistakes the vets were making.

Also, he was the 1st to drop the gloves when he had to and was always the most physical.
And that helps the team's overall defensive game how?

I love how people when they describe O'byrne all they can mention is that he can hit and fight, but they always fail to mention that his positioning and decision making were pure garbage. On a team that needs it's defensemen to be better defensively first, O'byrne is not a solution.

If all you are looking for is physical play and fighting, you may as well as bring up Alex freaking Henry. He'll fight, but it's not like he'll make the team any better.

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01-13-2012, 12:41 PM
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Andrighetto Fabolous
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Would be nice to somehow get rid of Kaberle and get a guy like Gleason in the off-season, he's a solid physical shutdown guy.

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Gleason - Diaz

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01-13-2012, 12:41 PM
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What people often fail to realize as well is that a good defense means more offense especially with smaller forwards who tend to not score from dirty areas as much. Both because of the transition game (I.E the first pass as they call it) and because of the D-men knowing when to pinch and helping out on the scoresheet.

Last year the Habs D got 190 points. This year they're on pace for 160. That's 30 points thrown out the window.

Not to mention that many of those likely came on the PP and the PP wins you games in the NHL.

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01-13-2012, 12:42 PM
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dcal64
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Agreed. It's one of those HFboards things that drives you nuts.

Imo they should have re-signed Hamrlik and obviously the Markov fiasco was a big screw up. They went into the season with basically no experience at all on the back end. I knew the D would be horrible in September.
Speaking of things that drive people nuts on the Hfboards.

Gauthier did try to sign Hamrlik, but he wanted a 2-year deal, only a complete moron (McPhee) would agree to that. That's one of Gauthier's better move not caving in to Hamrlik, can't believe people on this board still bring up Hamrlik.

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01-13-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
Speaking of things that drive people nuts on the Hfboards.

Gauthier did try to sign Hamrlik, but he wanted a 2-year deal, only a complete moron (McPhee) would agree to that. That's one of Gauthier's better move not caving in to Hamrlik, can't believe people on this board still bring up Hamrlik.
You mean the Hamrlik who was +6 with 34 points last year and who only missed a single game all year and saved our ***** the last two seasons when Markov went down?

Yeah geez, sorry how silly of me to bring him up in a thread about defense.

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01-13-2012, 12:46 PM
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And that helps the team's overall defensive game how?

I love how people when they describe O'byrne all they can mention is that he can hit and fight, but they always fail to mention that his positioning and decision making were pure garbage. On a team that needs it's defensemen to be better defensively first, O'byrne is not a solution.

If all you are looking for is physical play and fighting, you may as well as bring up Alex freaking Henry. He'll fight, but it's not like he'll make the team any better.
It's not his fault that JM never helped his development. Also, WRT being physical and fighting, yes, it's always good to have 1 or 2 defencemen that have the reputation of taking your head off if you come in his "house". The last time we had someone like that was Ludwig and Langway. Not all 6 are going to be smooth puck moving defensemen. During the playoffs, it's these types of players and typically your grinders that are the ones that stand out.

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01-13-2012, 12:46 PM
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Would like to see Bryan Allen get sign here to replace Gill, but with bringing more toughness.

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01-13-2012, 12:47 PM
  #23
Andy
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Originally Posted by GinoCyber View Post
It's not his fault that JM never helped his development. Also, WRT being physical and fighting, yes, it's always good to have 1 or 2 defencemen that have the reputation of taking your head off if you come in his "house". The last time we had someone like that was Ludwig and Langway. Not all 6 are going to be smooth puck moving defensemen. During the playoffs, it's these types of players and typically your grinders that are the ones that stand out.
It's great when the player can actually play defense like Emelin. O'byrne was absolute crap defensively, whether he can fight or not.

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01-13-2012, 12:54 PM
  #24
dcal64
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You mean the Hamrlik who was +6 with 34 points last year and who only missed a single game all year and saved our ***** the last two seasons when Markov went down?

Yeah geez, sorry how silly of me to bring him up in a thread about defense.
No the Hamrlik that's got 5 points and is -3 on Washington this year. And the suckers are stuck with him for another year.

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01-13-2012, 01:00 PM
  #25
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The way I see it, assuming PG doesn't have his head stuck somewhere awful (and there's no assurances he doesn't) then he's got to have both a short term and a long term plan. Say next season and three seasons from now. Maybe even one at five or six seasons out, but the old crystal ball gets foggy quickly at that distance.

Next Season
Markov (PP and top minute eater) - Gorges (PK and top minute eater)
Emelin (PK and defensive anchor for the more creative Subban. Also a huge physical presence) - Subban (Swing man with PP and PK minutes, being groomed for a bright future)
Kaberle (PP and limited exposure otherwise) - Diaz (PK and limited exposure otherwise)

This projection has flaws. I think our PK will suffer with a Gill like specialist (but I don't think Gill will be back, nor do I want him back) and we still only have one real physical presence on our blueline, when ideally you want two or more. It also largely hangs on Markov returning and returning to his old form. At this point I might consider shutting down Markov for the season anyway, signing a top-notch conditioning expert (to make sure Markov is game ready) and brining in a knee specialist (to make sure Markov's knee is game ready). If Markov goes down then we are left without a true number one defenseman and, other than a fishing expedition in the waters of free agency I'm not sure we'll get what we want.

2015-2016
Markov and Kaberle are gone. In their place are Beaulieu and Tinordi.
Emelin (big bodied defender, hits hard and is a role model for Tinordi. Plays on the PK) - Subban (elite puck rushing blueliner PP time)
Beaulieu (Beaulieu likes to hit and has offensive upside. His partner provides stability so that he can take himself out of position from time to time to do these things. He and Mr. Subban make player's heads spin on the PP) - Gorges (A Rivet-esque defender. Solid and dependable. Keeps Beaulieau grounded. Plays the PK and the PP)
Tinordi (A hard hitting PK specialist. What we all wish Gill was) - Diaz (Bottom pairing kind of guy. Good both ways and as such plays on the PP and on the PK with limited exposure in each).

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