HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

The group of defensemen

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-13-2012, 01:05 PM
  #26
Em Ancien
Sexy 2nd Rounder
 
Em Ancien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mount Real Life
Posts: 8,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
OMG you really thought that was a GREAT defence?! Unreal. That was one of the ********* d corps in the league. And for good reason.
It actually wasn't. But nice try.

Em Ancien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 01:06 PM
  #27
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
No the Hamrlik that's got 5 points and is -3 on Washington this year. And the suckers are stuck with him for another year.
And that couldn't possibly have to do with the fact that he's not a good fit over there right?

Because it's either that or he went from a very reliable solid D who pitched in offensively to a scrub in 3 months.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 01:09 PM
  #28
Sargent Pepper*
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: St Pierre and Miquelon
Posts: 2,234
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm more worried about our lack of fundamentals back there than the lack of grit. Gorges is the only consistent decision maker.

Also, O'byrne sucks.
to be fair, Subban, Diaz, Weber and Emelin are still in learning mode.....

As for the rest, well, other than Gorges, they can all be easily replaced....I doubt Markov will be himself when he comes back......too much time away and he is advancing in age.....plus, will the knee hold????

Sargent Pepper* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 01:15 PM
  #29
dcal64
Registered User
 
dcal64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 520
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
And that couldn't possibly have to do with the fact that he's not a good fit over there right?

Because it's either that or he went from a very reliable solid D who pitched in offensively to a scrub in 3 months.
So you would have agreed to sign Hamrlik for 2 years?

Believe it or not, most hockey players that are 37 years old get worse with each passing year, not better.

dcal64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 01:22 PM
  #30
HabFan1975
Registered User
 
HabFan1975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Gatineau
Country: Lebanon
Posts: 239
vCash: 500
Right side: Subban Diaz Weber Left side: Markov Gorges Emelin Kaberle Gill Campoli

We need to get rid of some of the dead weight on the left side and balance this D. I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but the Gorges signing was a bad move cause it comes at the expense of Emelin who I think needs to stay on the left side.
Cause if u look at it we have Markov - Gorges - Emelin and Kaberle for next year unless goat can unload Kaberle somehow but it will be very hard to do.
Using Gorges for a Rivet like trade would've been a much better move IMO, then upgrade the right side in the offseason with a solid physical Dman a Bieksa Type, not saying it has to be him but a similar type player.

Subban - Markov
Bieksa clone - Kaberle
Diaz/Weber - Emelin

That looks like a much more balanced D corp with Tinordi and Beaulieau ready to go in 1-2 years.


Last edited by HabFan1975: 01-13-2012 at 01:32 PM.
HabFan1975 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #31
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
I think in today's NHL you ideally want your top pairing to get the puck and move it out as fast as possible. It's all about puck possession and Markov-Emelin both have good hands and skating ability. The only problem is they're both left handed. I'm not sure a banger is really beneficial to the top pairing. Size and skill is essential though. Like Brent Burns, or Seabrook. Where they are tough but can still skate and handle the puck.

It's interesting going forward though, and who knows maybe we'll be drafting Murray or Dumba and they can come in after next year and be a stud for us.
While i dont disagree you would optimally have a two way, skating and also physical top pairing defensman, i just see those as much tougher to acquire. If at least you can acquire a tough as nails, physical stay at home defenseman to insulate Markov's physical shortcomings, you at least address a good portion of the needs. Its also a need of the defense as a whole.

Kirk Muller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 01:38 PM
  #32
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
Ohhhh you mad
 
DekeLikeYouMeanIt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In space..with goats
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
You had everything in this D corp : a big shot for the PP, 2 players to give him the puck, at least 1 guy with a lot of size and toughness on every pairs

I want Jim Vandermeer next year...
Look at Colorado. They're stacked with big guys on D. Got a solid goalie in Varly and they still suck ass especially their high Goals Against stat.

Hey I wanted VDM last year too and I want the D to get bigger and tougher. Those 2 are different BTW. You can be big but not tough. You can be Gorges/Bouillon (small but tough). That D was bad back then. Rivet and Souray were solid but we had no true 1st pairing. Good pieces but no one was a player you can rely on in all situations. The guy who steps up when everyone is ****.

Anyway, I'm all for a guy like Babchuk, Hannan, Vandermeer joining the team, but not just add big D-men for the sake of having a big D.

DekeLikeYouMeanIt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 01:45 PM
  #33
swimmer77
What's an ROW?
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
And that couldn't possibly have to do with the fact that he's not a good fit over there right?

Because it's either that or he went from a very reliable solid D who pitched in offensively to a scrub in 3 months.
Hamr's fine right now. He was injured and they shut him down for 4 games. He's back to playing like the Hamr from Montreal.

He's taking on the babysitting role just like you and I and others thought he could do in Montreal. Washington's D is very, very young - younger than Montreal's. They just called up another baby - Tomas Kundratek who is Czech.

Hamr's role is very different. He's not used on PP so his point production will naturally drop. Most of his points have come since he's been back. He leads the team blocking shots, kills penalties and plays about 19 - 22 minutes.

Watching what has transpired with Montreal's D this year there is no doubt Hamr would have helped. He was Martin's go to guy in ALL situations. And I would not have minded the extra year.

Compare Hamr's numbers to Kaberle numbers from last year and they are very similar. Except with Hamr you would have had a better, shot blocking d-man who eats major minutes. It was rumored he could have been had at about 3 mil with a two year term.

But right now it's much better to have Kaberle at 4.5 or whatever for more years.

What could have been..............

Gorges - Subban
Hamrlik - Diaz / Weber
Spacek / Emelin - Diaz / Weber

With Campoli maybe thrown in there or not. Or Woywitka or whatever. LOL

swimmer77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 03:06 PM
  #34
habitue*
 
habitue*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by odishabs View Post
If we could clean up the D to look something like this i would be happy

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Kaberle - Sarich


That's (one of) the guy I wanted from Calgary in the yesterday's trade.

habitue* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 03:08 PM
  #35
UniverStalinGraduate*
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,253
vCash: 500
I love this teams defence. The best part is they have some very tradeable assets right now.

UniverStalinGraduate* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 03:18 PM
  #36
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
So you would have agreed to sign Hamrlik for 2 years?

Believe it or not, most hockey players that are 37 years old get worse with each passing year, not better.
Yes I would have. He gave us very strong years here and showed no obvious signs of slowing down. Also by the sound of Swimmer's post he's doing well now in Was.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 03:27 PM
  #37
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,048
vCash: 500
assuming Markov is finally back for next season, i'd like something along these lines:

Subban - Gorges
UFA - Markov
Diaz - Emelin
Weber

UFA = one of Suter gleason, stuart, beauchemin, allen... pretty much in that order of priority.

Suter is most likely out of the question, but landing one of the other 4 should be both a priority and certainly possible.

i'm hoping that Cole/Gleason had a good relationship in Carolina and that he can help make that signing happen.

if we were to fail to land one of those 4 (on a 2-5 yr deal depending on the guy), then you scrap it, do a 1 year deal for a guy like Hannan/Huskins/Mitchell/O'brien, as a stop gap.

What you don't do, is panic and go blow a big contract on some 4th or 5th option out of desperation.

Only circumstance where Kaberle should be back is IF Markov is still on LTIR to end the season and it looks like the worst-case scenario happens and his career is permanently derailed... in which case they'd better go really really hard after Suter.

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 04:24 PM
  #38
Poulet Kostopoulos
Registered User
 
Poulet Kostopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,843
vCash: 500
Fast puck moving and mobile defense. That's what (practically) everyone here was drooling over before the start of the season while I was watching that group of Ds (in included Markov) and it worried the crap out of me. We managed to get smaller and softer on defense. Kaberle, Campoli. More softness. Oh but they are mobile.

Poulet Kostopoulos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 04:43 PM
  #39
JGRB
#EllerThugLife
 
JGRB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,618
vCash: 500
Despite his struggles I still project Subban as a top pairing defenseman. He's going to come back very strong next year, hopefully with a little help from Markov or some more veteran presense from trades or the UFA pool.

The fact Gorges is the only real experienced guy we have that contribute a medium-to-high level is very telling as to what Subban has to deliver, and it wasn't fair to him what so ever. Having 2 of 3 in Weber, Emelin and Diaz on the ice in every game plus the fact it's Subban's sophomore season and the fact Gill is finished is having a very adverse effect on PK's game. Obviously Kaberle hasn't lived up to his potential thus far either.

We need support for the poor guy.

JGRB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 04:58 PM
  #40
Habsawce
Registered User
 
Habsawce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,837
vCash: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
While i dont disagree you would optimally have a two way, skating and also physical top pairing defensman, i just see those as much tougher to acquire. If at least you can acquire a tough as nails, physical stay at home defenseman to insulate Markov's physical shortcomings, you at least address a good portion of the needs. Its also a need of the defense as a whole.
Yeah I would agree with you. Most people (myself included) tend to forget how much better Markov makes his partner. Komisarek and Souray come to mind. That being said I still think he has to be able to do something with the puck to Markov hence they need hands. That being said I would rather bring that from within, I honestly think watching Emelin progress he can be that guy, with some experience on how to handle the front of the net it could go well.

I don't think the team is going to have the cap space to pay 4-5 million for a player of top pairing potential, so unless we draft it this year we're going to have to fill the role of big nasty d-man for the 6th spot and concentrate on the forwards.

But if Markov is done for good, we're in a load of trouble going forward. The entire success of next year much like this year depends on him. Les sigh!

Habsawce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 05:20 PM
  #41
The Doors
Registered User
 
The Doors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,504
vCash: 500
Markov, Gorges, Subban, Kaberle, Emelin, one of Webbiaz, and one tough veteran Sunnoffa***** stay at home D signed in the offseason. Gill and Campoli thank you for your services - Gill especially over the years - but enjoy new homes in exchange for draft picks at the trade deadline. It would have been nice to have slotted Wizniewski in Kaberle`s spot but his contract is ridiculously long and such is life.

The Doors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 07:27 PM
  #42
neofury*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal, PQ
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,277
vCash: 500
My friend and I were just discussing in general how back in the day 5'11" Koivu was considered a small player for us. Now a days he would be considered to be average size

Now maybe I'm wrong but I could have sworn we were bigger

neofury* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 07:44 PM
  #43
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
Ohhhh you mad
 
DekeLikeYouMeanIt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In space..with goats
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yes I would have. He gave us very strong years here and showed no obvious signs of slowing down. Also by the sound of Swimmer's post he's doing well now in Was.
Are you kidding me? Age was definitely catching up to him last season. And this season is proof. He's been terrible with the Caps. Even in a limited role.

DekeLikeYouMeanIt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 07:44 PM
  #44
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
Fast puck moving and mobile defense. That's what (practically) everyone here was drooling over before the start of the season while I was watching that group of Ds (in included Markov) and it worried the crap out of me. We managed to get smaller and softer on defense. Kaberle, Campoli. More softness. Oh but they are mobile.
I agree. The D really scared me going into the season. I felt like we needed to improve on the D from last year, but we didn't. We went backwards. But back then all you heard was how Markov was going to transform this D into an elite squad. How Gill was a defensive dynamo, PK would be the 2nd coming of Ray Bourque and how Emelin was Scott Stevens.

hockeyfan2k11 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 08:03 PM
  #45
Em Ancien
Sexy 2nd Rounder
 
Em Ancien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mount Real Life
Posts: 8,869
vCash: 500
2-way D has always been the way to go.

But hey, we didn't give away a stud top 4 guy to NY for their garbage, amirite?

Em Ancien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 08:38 PM
  #46
yianik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,874
vCash: 500
I thought last year and this year was going to give tha Habs a chance to try to really craft the D because we had several contracts coming off the books. Markov continuing to be out has thrown a curve ball into that because we went out and got Kaberle to help generate the missing offense. But, I still think we can build a good group of players here.

Markov- have him for 2 more years after this one. Not much of a hitter, but positionally terrific defensively. Real puckmover and playmaker. Legitimate No.1, when he plays.Gorges-hits but not a big hitter. Does nothing on the offense but is a rock defensively and relied on the PK and in all key defensive moments. A warrior. Long term deal and we paid up, but that is the fair rate for a defensive player like Gorges who is a UFA. Can play first or 2nd pairing as needed by the team.

PK- makes you drool. Needs to keep improving his defensive game but not bad at all for such a young player. Talenteed offensively, does hit and can deliver big ones now and then. Seemed to have a better year last year than this one but hes been forced to take on the most minutes of any of our D-men and the pressure that goes with it, so no panic. Just finishing his ELC so we should have RFA status over him for 4 more years. All I ask is that we do a long term deal with him when he has at least 2 RFA years left so we can have leverage for a long term deak that eats into at least 3, hopefully 4 UFA years. No question a top 4 player, probably no worse than top 3, with the chance to be a No.1

Emelin- I believe he has one more year as an RFA and that creates issues. A first year player who has really improved over the season as he has adusted to the NHL game. Put up points in last year of KHL but that hasnt translated here yet and he may never put up points and that is fine. Defensively pretty solid positionally but makes occassional really big gaffs, especially on passes. But again , overall good defensively. Is big, is able to hit, is not just willing to hit but loves to hit, and he hits clean and hard. Surprisingly, finfing a good sized D-man who actually hits isnt easy. Really like him. Problem is he is a top 6 D-man right now and if we sign him to top 6 d-man money ie $1.5M or so Emelin would be foolish to take that on a long term deal. So we run a huge risk losing him as a UFA. To lock him up long term I think we need to project him as a solid d-man, a notch below say Gorges, who hits big. Kind of what Komisarek was supposed to be. Its a riskId take because we need a D-man who hits alot and can put a guy through the boards. Players like this are intimidating and throw players off their games. Id risk signing him this year to a long term deal. As he has 1 year of RFA left Id sat$16 over 5 years should be in the range.

Diaz- really nice surprise. Certainly top 6 player but has been hanling quite a few minutes. Definite keeper if you can get a reasonable deal ie 2M or so longer term.

Kaberle- is weak defensively and really best suited for the PP. Has absolutely done all we could have hoped for from him when we traded for him. Didnt like the trade because I couldnt care less about saving the season, I want a good team long term. I say try to move him now while he is still producing and get rid of the contract.

Campoli and Gill. Thanks to Gill because we realtically couldnt have expected more from the guy. Campoli, heres your coffee.

Weber-top 7, you keep him, hes signed.

Need- atop 6 guy with decent size, who wont make too many gaffs as he plays an okay defensive game, and hits.No offense required but nice to have.

Prospects-Tinordi and beauleau (sp) are probably 2-3 years away from any NHL game time.

The key to everthing is Markov because without him we have a hell of a hole in the top pairing and PP. I just dont think Kaberle fills the void at all, so why blow the cap space and then not be able to sign a guy like Emelin. If Markov never comes back then you have to pay up when the right UFA comes along, because I doubt we could snag a No,1 d-man in a trade. Anyway, with Markov in I reallylike the D, especially adding in another physical player. Realistically if Markov never came back full time wed need to get a top 4 two way player because thats probably the best you could get and hope PK panned out.


Last edited by yianik: 01-13-2012 at 08:51 PM.
yianik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 08:45 PM
  #47
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,203
vCash: 500
The biggest loss has been Subban going from fast, dangerous cannon to mediocre defensive dman with no shot. I hope it is just a sophmore slump because he is not looking like a top pairing dman anymore. He make s apile of mistakes that gorges has to cover and ruins our powerplays.

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2012, 10:59 PM
  #48
Habstract
Registered User
 
Habstract's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 793
vCash: 500
Would you guys like to sign a guy like Willie Mitchell let's say... UFA at the end of the year.

Habstract is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 07:01 AM
  #49
dcyhabs
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 701
vCash: 500
Comments:

-Emelin looks really good sometimes but he has been beaten badly for too many goals. He has good streaks, but too many misses. Have to hope he is learning. Being coached by Martin could not have helped his confidence (Martin does not like hitting for the sake of hitting) but may have helped his D.
-We need one more big, phyiscal, shutdown guy. O'Byrne would have been good if he could deal with Martin. Not a star, but capable of playing shutdown on the right side.
-If only Martin had coached rookies more like he coached vets... And appreciated goals and hits a little more.
-MAB is actually looking like he would have been a good option.
-Subban will be fine in a year or two or if we get a real number one. He's not ready to be the number one D but he is really good.
-We need a number one D (Markov?) and a right-handed shutdown guy.
-Diaz and Emelin would both benefit from a 2 week "conditioning" stint or two in the AHL playing 30 minutes per game with focused coaching. Well it might make Emelin shakier defensively as he continues to try stuff that works in lower leagues and gets him scored on in the NHL...
-Most of the habs D-men, like the small forwards, would be great if there weren't so many small, left-handed, fairly offensive guys. Campoli and Kaberle should go at the deadline.

dcyhabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 10:04 AM
  #50
Roulin
Registered User
 
Roulin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,126
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
The biggest loss has been Subban going from fast, dangerous cannon to mediocre defensive dman with no shot. I hope it is just a sophmore slump because he is not looking like a top pairing dman anymore. He make s apile of mistakes that gorges has to cover and ruins our powerplays.
That's a chicken/egg argument, that I think makes more sense if it is flipped. Subban has been given too much reponsibility for a 2nd year dman. He is not the first to have a hiccup when his role is escalated - see Myers this year, Bogosian last year, Jack Johnson in his sophomore season... IMO the organization let Subban down, not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
They went into the season with basically no experience at all on the back end. I knew the D would be horrible in September.
I agree with this. It's not lack of toughness specifically, or any one quality that is the problem. It is the fact that the Habs leaned on too many young dmen at the same time.

Roulin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.