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How good was Bob Probert? (Awesome Tribute Video @ Post #1)

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Old
02-04-2012, 06:31 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexus View Post
I started following the NHL in the late 90's, when they actually started to air NHL games over here.

Anyway, im just wondering how good Bob Probert was during his hey-days? Both as a player and a fighter, was there anybody who was superior to him during his time in the NHL (fight-wise)? Especially during his years in Detroit uniform.

Any input is welcome.


Oh! and btw.
If you haven't seen this tribute of him yet, which HockeyWebCaster put together when he passed away you sure have missed out of something.

I've seen it probably 20 times. One of the best tribute videos ever.

Probert = meanest powerforward ever

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Old
02-05-2012, 03:42 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kryb View Post
And back on topic, while Probert did have one 60 point year and a few 40 point years, these years were during a period when scoring was at an all-time high with numerous guys getting 100. I don't think it's fair to call him the best combination of skill and toughness. I honestly would have to say that that one goes to Lindros. While I think it would have been a decent fight, had Probie ever gone after Lindros, I feel like Kordic and LaCroix would've collectively murdered him.
62 pts in 74 games is good in any era but assuming he would play a 20 minute TOI that 400 PMIs translates into 20 games worth of box time.

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02-05-2012, 01:46 PM
  #53
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At first glance one would say he was the meanest ever. However was it him or the coke? Seems like once he got sober he was not as mean as he once was. Anyone who has tried it knows you don't feel anything and have abnormal energy on it. Was he that bad or did he just play high a lot? Who knows.

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02-05-2012, 04:45 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by yohan1212 View Post
At first glance one would say he was the meanest ever. However was it him or the coke? Seems like once he got sober he was not as mean as he once was. Anyone who has tried it knows you don't feel anything and have abnormal energy on it. Was he that bad or did he just play high a lot? Who knows.
Probie was a naturally mean dude, no question... what the drugs/alcohol did were keep him willing to do a very tough job night after night. Getting punched in the face for a living (by the likes of Grimson, Berube, Domi, Twist etc.) probably ain't much fun.

I'm sure he's not alone there. Gino Odjick was not the same force of nature after he quit drinking and "lost his anger".

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02-05-2012, 11:34 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by yohan1212 View Post
At first glance one would say he was the meanest ever. However was it him or the coke? Seems like once he got sober he was not as mean as he once was. Anyone who has tried it knows you don't feel anything and have abnormal energy on it. Was he that bad or did he just play high a lot? Who knows.
In his book it kind of touches on how his dad used to lay a beating to him but kind of skirts aronud the topic. Seems like it must have been something that really bothered him giving all the stuff that he admitted in that book.

I figure that had A LOT to do with his meanness and also why he was drinking 12 beers a night by 17 and doing so much coke

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02-06-2012, 12:31 AM
  #56
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He was wicked to watch. He made Don Cherry a lot of money on his Rock em Sock hits videos.

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02-20-2012, 03:21 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
for how he abused his body, his fighting stamina was unreal. A lot of fight he would allow the other guy to tire then beat the **** out of him.
The Cocaine helped Him not feel too much pain.

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02-20-2012, 03:23 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kryb View Post
Clarke Gillies was the exact same. As was Rick Tocchet. And those two had some pretty amazing stats for guys who were so tough.
Tocchet in His prime could really go. Probie couldn't touch Tocchet in the skill department.

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02-20-2012, 03:26 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryb View Post
Clarke Gillies was the exact same. As was Rick Tocchet. And those two had some pretty amazing stats for guys who were so tough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryb View Post
Not at all. Schultz, in the enforcer role, was the most effective tough guy in the history of the game. He was the most effective on-ice policeman.



I get what you're saying with Gillies, but Tocchet? C'mon man. Go look at his fight card and tell me he's not a heavyweight. And since when does size decide who's a heavyweight fighter? Engelland, Domi, and Berube were/are all smaller than Tocchet and wouldn't you consider them heavyweights?
People are just jealous of the Board Street Bully days. They scared teams to the point that the game was already won before the game even started.

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02-21-2012, 07:19 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Youre in the minority on the first part, Probert is pretty much unanimously considered the best enforcer of all time. Not only as the top fighter, but he could also play unlike 99% of the guys who are even close to comparable to him.

As for the second part, Tocchet broke into the league scrapping and had 2 seasons with 20 fights but after that he averaged around 8, not exactly close to a guy like Probie who regulary put up around 20 a season against the absolute toughest players and hardly lost.

Tocchet fought Probert once, got his ass kicked and resorted to headbutting him a couple times cause he was so outmatched lol

I dont really think Schultz 7 year career playing in an era with less tough guys and being the best matches up with Proberts 16 year career in the toughest era of hockey when it came to enforcers

I'll give you that probert was probabley tougher and a better fighter.. but you can't tell me their was less tough guys.. In fact I think there were better fighers and tougher players back in shultz's era. Yes there was more "goons" in the 80's and 90's but to a man on many teams there were guys who could more than hold their own.

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05-23-2012, 12:04 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
Tocchet in His prime could really go. Probie couldn't touch Tocchet in the skill department.
Well, i certainly agree with you but Tocchet on the other hand couldn't touch Probert in the fighting department either.

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Old
05-24-2012, 05:56 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by traditionalhockey View Post
Probert was/is "The King." As far as enforcers are concerned, he is #1 all-time... and no one touches him. Not Wendel Clark...
Wendel Clark wasn't an enforcer. But I have to say, he was just as tough as Probert. If not, more.


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06-02-2012, 02:14 PM
  #63
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Wendel Clark wasn't an enforcer. But I have to say, he was just as tough as Probert. If not, more.
Probert was very tough, no question -- but a consensus #1? Not a chance. You're right to say Wendel Clark was just as good a fighter, as their matchups show. Donald Brashear and Craig Berube had very similar careers as Probert in terms of longevity and being prolific. Berube and Brashear each got at least a split against Probert in their career matchups -- I'd go so far as saying both had the edge over him. Guys like Crowder, Twist, Worrell, Sandy McCarthy and others definitely won career matchups against him.

As far as an enforcer Probert was similar to Clark Gillies. He did a great job of protecting smaller skilled players and making guys accountable. Larry Playfair was the best pure enforcer I've seen though.

The guys who think Probert is a consensus #1 either started watching hockey in his era, choose to ignore his many lopsided losses, or both. The best fighter is the guy who almost never loses -- and there are several heavyweights of that era who have better win-loss records.

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06-02-2012, 06:12 PM
  #64
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Probert's 87/88 season will go down as one of the best in history by any player. Including playoffs his totals were insane..
GP G A Pts +/- PIMS
90 37 46 83 24 449

15 PP goals,6 GW's and 21 fighting majors.

He was a monster this season and instilled fear upon all.

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Old
06-02-2012, 06:24 PM
  #65
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Amazingly enough, Probert actually broke the all-time Red Wings record for pts in a playoff year with his 21 pts in 16 games in 1988. The previous record holder was Gordie Howe, set in 1955.

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06-02-2012, 07:09 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by CLF4life View Post
Probert's 87/88 season will go down as one of the best in history by any player. Including playoffs his totals were insane..
GP G A Pts +/- PIMS
90 37 46 83 24 449

15 PP goals,6 GW's and 21 fighting majors.

He was a monster this season and instilled fear upon all.
I'd stack Paul Holmgren's 79/80 season up against it:

40 goals, 45 assists for 85 points in 94 games. He was +35 in the regular season, scored a hat trick in Game 2 of the Stanley Cup Final (first US-born player ever to do so), and if Leon Stickle did his job and called an offside goal in Game 6 Holmgren might have had a Stanley Cup ring to go along with it

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Old
06-03-2012, 11:59 AM
  #68
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LOL. You have got to be a bitter Rags fan. I personally believe the 80s Flyers were tougher, but saying that the Bullies weren't tough and that Schultz isn't top 25 makes me question your sanity.
Larry Robinson kicked Schultz ass, and then the Habs showed you how to dismantle the Flyers by mixing lots of skill with toughness.

Probie is a beast though.

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Old
06-03-2012, 07:31 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Armyofall View Post
Probert was very tough, no question -- but a consensus #1? Not a chance. You're right to say Wendel Clark was just as good a fighter, as their matchups show. Donald Brashear and Craig Berube had very similar careers as Probert in terms of longevity and being prolific. Berube and Brashear each got at least a split against Probert in their career matchups -- I'd go so far as saying both had the edge over him. Guys like Crowder, Twist, Worrell, Sandy McCarthy and others definitely won career matchups against him.

As far as an enforcer Probert was similar to Clark Gillies. He did a great job of protecting smaller skilled players and making guys accountable. Larry Playfair was the best pure enforcer I've seen though.

The guys who think Probert is a consensus #1 either started watching hockey in his era, choose to ignore his many lopsided losses, or both. The best fighter is the guy who almost never loses -- and there are several heavyweights of that era who have better win-loss records.
His many lopsided losses?? Like?

I'm not saying Probert never lost, but he fought to a lot of draws, had some epic battles, and lost a handful. But many lopsided losses? Brashear wasn't fighting Probert in his prime. As overall enforcers I can't believe many people would put either one over Probert, especially Berube. For a heavyweight Brashear was the king of hugfests.

Here they are in 93 when Probie was still close to his prime. It wasn't until Probert's off ice problems and age had slowed him down a bit before Brashear would actually go with him.


He may not be consensus #1, but he's gonna be top two or three on almost everyone's list.


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Old
06-04-2012, 11:30 PM
  #70
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His many lopsided losses?? Like?

I'm not saying Probert never lost, but he fought to a lot of draws, had some epic battles, and lost a handful. But many lopsided losses? Brashear wasn't fighting Probert in his prime. As overall enforcers I can't believe many people would put either one over Probert, especially Berube. For a heavyweight Brashear was the king of hugfests.

Here they are in 93 when Probie was still close to his prime. It wasn't until Probert's off ice problems and age had slowed him down a bit before Brashear would actually go with him.


He may not be consensus #1, but he's gonna be top two or three on almost everyone's list.
Like Ken Belanger for one. That loss all by itself drops Probert at least 1 place on any all-time list; probably the most lopsided and embarrassing loss ever suffered by an elite heavyweight.

His chin was suspect on more than one occasion -- dropped by Todd Ewen, Morrisette, and Chris Tamer. These guys are not all-time fighters; the last two are run-of-the-mill guys.

Chris Simon gave Probert a lopsided beating. Sandy McCarthy easily beat Probert even after Probert jumped him. Probert was so soundly beaten and embarrassed he resorted to headbutting McCarthy. Troy Crowder manhandled Probert twice -- Probert fans brag up his "revenge" win over Crowder, but don't remember Crowder beat Probert worse than the first beating later in the same game. Paul Laus ragdolled and busted Probert open. Way too many lopsided beatings

Probert is a top 5 guy in DET. In CHI he embarrassed himself more than anything

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06-05-2012, 03:20 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Armyofail View Post
Probert was very tough, no question -- but a consensus #1? Not a chance. You're right to say Wendel Clark was just as good a fighter, as their matchups show. Donald Brashear and Craig Berube had very similar careers as Probert in terms of longevity and being prolific. Berube and Brashear each got at least a split against Probert in their career matchups -- I'd go so far as saying both had the edge over him. Guys like Crowder, Twist, Worrell, Sandy McCarthy and others definitely won career matchups against him.

As far as an enforcer Probert was similar to Clark Gillies. He did a great job of protecting smaller skilled players and making guys accountable. Larry Playfair was the best pure enforcer I've seen though.

The guys who think Probert is a consensus #1 either started watching hockey in his era, choose to ignore his many lopsided losses, or both. The best fighter is the guy who almost never loses -- and there are several heavyweights of that era who have better win-loss records.

Berube shouldn't be anywhere near a best fighter discussion.



Most of the guys you mentioned were never near as prolific. Crowder, Twist, Worrell etc. please, I played with a few of them (not professionally) and they weren't even good beer league players. Every fighter has taken his lumps if he fights 15 + times a season. That means double when said fighter actually fights and doesn't hold on he is dancing with his girlfriend, like some of the above you mention.

That said Probert wasn't the toughest guy on his own team, Kocur was.


Last edited by Miamipuck: 06-05-2012 at 03:31 PM.
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Old
06-05-2012, 09:56 PM
  #72
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Berube shouldn't be anywhere near a best fighter discussion.



Most of the guys you mentioned were never near as prolific. Crowder, Twist, Worrell etc. please, I played with a few of them (not professionally) and they weren't even good beer league players. Every fighter has taken his lumps if he fights 15 + times a season. That means double when said fighter actually fights and doesn't hold on he is dancing with his girlfriend, like some of the above you mention.

That said Probert wasn't the toughest guy on his own team, Kocur was.
To say Berube "shouldn't be anywhere near a best fighter discussion" knocks Probert down another few pegs -- very similar guys. Pretty much an equal amount of fights against much of the same opposition and with basically the same sort of W-L record -- and as I mentioned Berube was better than Probert head-to-head.

As far as Kocur goes, since you like putting up clips, go ahead and put up a clip of Kocur's fight vs Dave Richter. It pretty much puts to rest any discussion of Kocur in a best fighter discussion -- hard puncher, not a great fighter

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06-08-2012, 09:53 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Armyofall View Post
Probert was very tough, no question -- but a consensus #1? Not a chance. You're right to say Wendel Clark was just as good a fighter, as their matchups show. Donald Brashear and Craig Berube had very similar careers as Probert in terms of longevity and being prolific. Berube and Brashear each got at least a split against Probert in their career matchups -- I'd go so far as saying both had the edge over him. Guys like Crowder, Twist, Worrell, Sandy McCarthy and others definitely won career matchups against him.

As far as an enforcer Probert was similar to Clark Gillies. He did a great job of protecting smaller skilled players and making guys accountable. Larry Playfair was the best pure enforcer I've seen though.

The guys who think Probert is a consensus #1 either started watching hockey in his era, choose to ignore his many lopsided losses, or both. The best fighter is the guy who almost never loses -- and there are several heavyweights of that era who have better win-loss records.
There are 2 websites dedicated solely to hockey fights - hockeyfights.com and hockey-fights.com - that have tons of members that have debated this for years, both websites on their own have basically come to a consensus that Probert is the overall #1 guy. In no way does that mean that he was unbeatable, but based on # of fights, win/loss, longevity, fightcard, he probably was the best. It is subjective though, you may not agree, but it is the consensus. BTW, Wendel Clark does not sniff the top-15 all time fighters.

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06-09-2012, 09:36 AM
  #74
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There are 2 websites dedicated solely to hockey fights - hockeyfights.com and hockey-fights.com - that have tons of members that have debated this for years, both websites on their own have basically come to a consensus that Probert is the overall #1 guy. In no way does that mean that he was unbeatable, but based on # of fights, win/loss, longevity, fightcard, he probably was the best. It is subjective though, you may not agree, but it is the consensus. BTW, Wendel Clark does not sniff the top-15 all time fighters.
Probert's career win-loss was barely 3-1. Dave Brown, Behn Wilson, and Larry Playfair were miles better than that. Wilson about 20-1, Brown and Playfair at least 15-1. Because the majority of hockeyfights.com members hail from the Toronto/Windsor/Detroit demographic and have a bias for Probert does not make him a consensus #1

You cannot be the #1 guy when fighters of your era are better head-to-head. It's just that simple. Twist, McCarthy and Crowder all gave him severe beatings on more than one occasion and Probert has only one win against any of them -- the "great revenge victory" over Crowder, which Crowder avenged in record time by whooping Probert later the same day.

The best fighter is the man who wins, wins, and wins. By that measure Behn Wilson is by far #1 -- never knocked down, never bloodied, never manhandled, never beaten more than once by the same guy. The only man to beat Clark Gillies twice -- I won't count Terry O'Reilly because Gillies pounded him about 6 times. The only man ever to beat Barry Beck in an NHL fight. Probert just doesn't have any such signature victory. His win over Dave Brown was the best of his career, and he had to do it to compensate for being embarrassed by Brown in their previous fight.

Go check out the common opponents Probert and Wilson fought on their "fightcard". In virtually every case Wilson did better -- and fought them when they were younger and stronger than when Probert fought them.

Btw, trashing Wendel Clark doesn't make your case for Probert any stronger; it diminishes it. Clark was the better fighter vs Probert head-to-head. Also Btw -- Clark fought both Behn Wilson and Bob Probert on more than one occasion and declares Behn Wilson the best he's ever fought.

Stu Grimson fought both Probert and Dave Brown many times and when asked he replied immediately Dave Brown was the best. He didn't even mention Probert's name.

Ed Hospodar had his face famously rearranged by Clark Gillies and he put Behn Wilson #1 all-time.

I hate to dispute the validity of your panel of "experts" from your favourite websites, but I'll go ahead and take the word of the guys who actually fought in the NHL for a living. Consensus #1 huh?? Yeah right

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06-09-2012, 02:53 PM
  #75
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the best fighter is the man who wins, wins, and wins. By that measure behn wilson is by far #1 -- never knocked down, never bloodied, never manhandled, never beaten more than once by the same guy.


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