HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Defensemen)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-14-2012, 02:00 AM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Defensemen)

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top 10 of the available defensemen
  • Final results will be posted and the top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
  • The process will be repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.
Eliglible Voters (23):
BiLLYShOE1721; Canadiens1958; chaosrevolver; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Der Kaiser; Dreakmur; Epsilon; Hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; Hockey Outsider; intylerwetrust; JaysCyYoung; McNuts; MXD; overpass; pappyline; reckoning; seventieslord; TheDevilMadeMe; tarheelhockey; tony D; VanIslander

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 02:05 AM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Vote 9 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 9PM EST on Thursday 1/19/12 and 9PM EST on Saturday 1/21/12. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with me via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM me your votes during the above timeframe.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 9 will be for places 41 through 45 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Rob Blake
Emile "Butch" Bouchard
Georges "Buck" Boucher
Carl Brewer
Harry Cameron
Zdeno Chara
Ebbie Goodfellow
Ernest "Moose" Johnson
Tom Johnson
Sylvio Mantha
Larry Murphy
Ken Reardon
Albert "Babe" Siebert
Jan Suchy
Doug Wilson

Please note that you are voting for your top 10 of the 15 available candidates.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 02:08 AM
  #3
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,918
vCash: 500
The guy I was so eager to argue for top-5 this round ain't even available yet.

Wilson? Really?

VanIslander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 02:16 AM
  #4
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Note on the new candidates: Ken Reardon appeared on only 17/23 ballots, the least so far of any available candidate. Moose Johnson held the previous mark of 18/23 ballots.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-14-2012 at 02:42 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 03:17 AM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Norris/All Star voting records:

Parenthesis indicated range of consideration. Note that when Norris votes aren't available, I'm using all-star votes indicated by italics. Moose Johnson, and Jan Suchy never played in the NHL and are not included. Harry Cameron retired from the NHL in 1923, before the Hart Trophy was awarded, so he is not included.

Georges Boucher: Hart voting didn't exist for most of his career. 2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1924 and 1925 when the NHL only had half the world's best players.

Sylvio Mantha (1929-1934): 2nd*, 3rd, 4th, 7th
*2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1929
(Note that we don't have much beyond the top 2-4 Hart getters from 1923-1930).

Ebbie Goodfellow (1935-1941): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th*
Babe Siebert (1936-1939): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th**

Butch Bouchard (1944-1948, 1956): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th
Ken Reardon (1946-1950): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th

Tom Johnson (1954-1962): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Carl Brewer (1959-1965, 1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Doug Wilson (1982-1990): 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th

Rob Blake (1998-2004): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th
Zdeno Chara (2003-2011): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th****

*From 1931-1934, Goodfellow finished 3rd and 4th in AS voting for Center. All finishes listed above are as a defenseman.

**Siebert as a LW/utility player (1926-1935): 1926: 14th in Hart voting. 1931: 2 votes for 1st Team LW, 1932: 1 vote for 1st Team, 1 vote for 2nd Team LW. All finishes listed above are as a defenseman.

***Brewer spent prime seasons (aged 27-30) outside the NHL due to a feud with Punch Imlach. During his "free spirit" time, he was an All-Star at the World Championships among other accolades.

****For those of you not following the NHL this season, Chara is well on his way to another top 5 Norris finish, barring injury.

Obsevations:
  • Babe Siebert is a very unique player. Spent 10 years as a utility player who usually played left wing but filled in at D when needed. Switched to D full-time at the end of his career and had an amazing short peak. 3 straight 1st Team All Stars followed by a 6th place finish in AS voting, then retired. Won the Hart and led all dmen in All Star votes in 1937. Was a very close 2nd to Eddie Shore in All Star voting in 1938 and finished 3rd in Hart voting.
  • Goodfellow won the Hart Trophy in 1940, but he received slightly fewer votes than Dit Clapper for the All-Star team.
  • Butch Bouchard almost rivals Niedermayer in terms of shortness of peak, and his 4 All Star finishes were during the 2 worst War years and the 2 years following. After 1948, Bouchard only has the 1 6th place finish in 1956.
  • Ken Reardon is another unique player. Had two unspectacular seasons in 1941 and 1942, left to fight the war for 3 seasons, then returned and was immediately an all-star. 5 straight seasons as an all-star after he retured, then retired immediately.
  • Tom Johnson won his Norris the season his teammate, Doug Harvey, was injured and playing less effectively than usual.

Note that I added a correction to Ebbie Goodfellow's data. Now that BM67 linked to the 1934-35 data, I see that Ebbie is effectively tied with Hap Day for 5th in All Star voting.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-16-2012 at 02:07 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 03:28 AM
  #6
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Norris/All Star voting records:

Georges Boucher: Hart voting didn't exist for most of his career. 2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1924 and 1925 when the NHL only had half the world's best players.

Sylvio Mantha (1929-1934): 2nd*, 3rd, 4th, 7th
*2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1929
(Note that we don't have much beyond the top 2-4 Hart getters from 1923-1930).

Ebbie Goodfellow (1935-1941): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th*
Babe Siebert (1936-1939): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th**

Butch Bouchard (1944-1948, 1956): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th
Ken Reardon (1946-1950): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th

Tom Johnson (1954-1962): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Carl Brewer (1959-1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Doug Wilson (1982-1990): 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th

Rob Blake (1998-2004): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th
Zdeno Chara (2003-2011): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th****
Most top 2 finishes

3. Babe Siebert, Butch Bouchard
2. Ebbie Goodfellow, Ken Reardon, Zdeno Chara
1. Sylvio Mantha, Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer, Doug Wilson, Rob Blake
0. Larry Murphy

Most top 3 finishes

4. Zdeno Chara, Butch Bouchard, Ken Reardon
3. Ebbie Goodfellow, Babe Siebert, Rob Blake
2. Sylvio Mantha, Carl Brewer, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson

Most top 5 finishes

5. Ebbie Goodfellow, Ken Reardon, Rob Blake, Zdeno Chara
4. Butch Bouchard, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson
3. Sylvio Mantha,* Babe Siebert, Tom Johson, Carl Brewer

Most placements

7. Larry Murphy, Zdeno Chara
6. Ebbie Goodfellow, Butch Bouchard, Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer, Rob Blake
5. Ken Reardon, Doug Wilson
4. Sylvio Mantha,* Babe Siebert

*Note that data for the first half of Mantha's career is incomplete

Observations:
  • Chara looks awfully good this round, and this isn't even including his 2011-12 year to date where he is currently the favorite for the Norris.
  • This is a great illustration of just how weak Larry Murphy's peak value is compared to other guys available, but just how much he makes up in terms of career value.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-16-2012 at 02:08 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 03:38 AM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Hart Trophy Top 5 finishes for Mantha, Siebert and Goodfellow

These three men spent the entirity of their careers in the era when defensemen got serious consideration for the Hart. So it's another useful method in comparing them.

1929
1. Roy Worters, NYA G 74
2. Ace Bailey, Tor RW 64
3. Eddie Shore, Bos D 62
4. Sylvio Mantha, Mtl D 60
5. King Clancy, Ott D 50

1937
1. Babe Siebert, Mtl D 63
2. Lionel Conacher, Mtl M D 43
3. Ebbie Goodfellow, Det D 42
4. Tiny Thompson, Bos G 31
5. Marty Barry, Det C 26

1938
1. Eddie Shore, Bos D 68
2. Paul Thompson, Chi LW 61
3. Babe Siebert, Mtl D 38
4. Gord Drillon, Tor RW 28
5. Neil Colville, NYR C/D 28

1940
1. Ebbie Goodfellow, Det D 57
2. Syl Apps, Tor C 51
3. Dit Clapper, Bos D 40
4. Milt Schmidt, Bos C/D 32
5. Earl Robinson, NYA C/R 21 (Earl Robertson, NYA G)

Goodfellow was also 4th in Hart voting in 1931, but as a forward.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 08:36 AM
  #8
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 36,828
vCash: 500
-Among the new additions, Sylvio Mantha showed up probably a round too early, and Doug Wilson is barely even worth discussing. The others I have to think about some more.

-The further we get into this, the more shame I feel about some of the rankings on my original Top 80 list.

-Chara and Moose Johnson should be my top two for this round in some order.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 11:33 AM
  #9
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,397
vCash: 500
About four rounds too late, Ken Reardon finally shows up. He might get my first place vote this round, definitely in the top five. His all-star record is phenomenal considering the length of his career.

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 11:49 AM
  #10
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,316
vCash: 500
Regardless of one's feelings toward Zdeno Chara, I think the smaller the gap between Bill Quackenbush and Ken Reardon will be, the most sense this list will make in the end...

17 on 23, really?

However, this is probably the round with the biggest initial inner debate. Reardon vs. Moose for first place.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 12:21 PM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
About four rounds too late, Ken Reardon finally shows up. He might get my first place vote this round, definitely in the top five. His all-star record is phenomenal considering the length of his career.
But isn't the short length of his career a negative?

He played 2 very unspectacular years in 1941 and 1942 (not a single All Star vote), then fought in the war for 3 years. Then came back an All Star and was an All Star for 5 straight seasons, then retired.

I think at first glance, he could be underrated because people see he only played 7 years (with only 5 of them really relevant), and forget that he lost 3 to the war. Well, he was definitely underrated by the 6 people who left him out of their top 80 entirely!

But this isn't like Jack Stewart, where we can just assume that Reardon lost all-star calibre hockey to the War, since Reardon was not an all-star (or even close to one) before the war. Like I said, leaving Reardon out of the top 80 entirely is very wrong, but I don't know if I'd take Reardon over anyone who we already added, either.

That said, it does seem wrong that Butch Bouchard became available so much sooner than Reardon. (I had Bouchard about 10 spots over Reardon on my original list and I have no idea why).


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-14-2012 at 12:39 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 12:24 PM
  #12
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
About four rounds too late, Ken Reardon finally shows up. He might get my first place vote this round, definitely in the top five. His all-star record is phenomenal considering the length of his career.
What do you mean, considering the length of his career? As in, a longber career would mean more all-star spots? Not sure I agree... and playing at any level is better than just not playing.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 12:58 PM
  #13
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Zdeno Chara

REPOST FROM LAST ROUND

More on Chara: One thing that really impresses me about Chara is that the NHL completely changed the rules during the last lockout in a way that should have really hurt big, slow, defensemen, yet Chara barely missed a beat.

2003-04: The last year before the lockout. Chara builds off his strong 2002-03 season to emerge as a superstar in his own right, finishing second in Norris voting to Scott Niedermayer. The story down the stretch was: Niedermayer's offensive advantage vs. Chara's defensive advantage. The writers went with the guy who put up better numbers. But Chara was great this season - the prototypical shut down defenseman of the dead puck "bigger is better" clutch-and-grab era - and it certainly wasn't becasue of his goaltender (Patrick Lalime).

The NHL changed the rules during the lockout in a way that should have really hurt Chara. Clutch and grab was gone and speed became king. Yet Chara barely missed a beat.

2005-06: Chara finished 4th in Norris voting behind a rejuvenated Nicklas Lidstrom, Scott Niedermayer, and (by far) the best season of Sergei Zubov's career.

2006-07: The one and only bad season of this stretch for Chara. He signed a huge contract and was expected to immediately turn around a dynfunctional Boston team, and failed to deliver. He wasn't awful - but he certainly wasn't up to the standards of what a star defenseman should be.

2007-08: Chara rebounds big time, finishing 3rd in Norris voting behind Nicklas Lidstrom (who blows everyone away with 127 out of 134 first place votes) and Dion Phaneuf's powerplay-driven season.

2008-09: Chara wins the Norris over Mike Green and Nicklas Lidstrom. There's a good case that Lidstrom "deserved" this Norris, but that shouldn't take away from Chara's season.

2009-10: Chara finishes 8th in Norris voting. Slight set back, right? I would argue that Chara may have been just as good at even strength as the previous year, while his PP performance is what dropped off.

In 2008-09, Chara had 20 even strength points and was +23
In 2009-10, Chara had 27 even strength points and was +19

But on the PP:
In 2008-09, Chara had 28 PP points, including 11 PPG
In 2009-10, Chara had 16 PP points, including only 4 PPG

2010-11: Chara finishes 3rd in Norris voting, despite a weak presence on the PP. He again scores 27 even strength points (to go along with a league-leading +33) but only scores 15 points on the PP (though 8 of them are PPGs).

2011-12 (to date): Chara has been strong at both even strength and on the PP. He has 13 even strength points and 12 PP points in 36 games, along with an outstanding +27 (first among defensemen, 3rd behind 2 forwards on his own team) while taking the toughest defensive assignments. Not that the polls section of hfboards is littered with the best hockey minds, but it should be noted that Chara is the runaway winner in the "midseason Norris" poll being conducted: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1072871

And remember: Everything Chara has done after the last lockout has been done with a skillset that would appear to be even better suited to other eras.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:01 PM
  #14
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Moose Johnson

Moose Johnson

REPOST FROM LAST ROUND

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Johnson was a forward in the CAHL and EC(A)HL. In the NHA's first season he moved back to defense for the Wanderers. He was a defenseman for the vast majority of his time in the PCHA. Note that his bio from The Trail states he was sometimes used as a rover in his later years. I don't think it was that much, because he was still a first all-star defenseman every year through 1919. (the spike in his 1917 numbers makes you wonder, though). Since he missed the ASTs in 1920 and 1922, and was a 2nd teamer in 1921, he was either finally in decline, or his time as a rover was keeping him off the AST as a defenseman.

In my estimation, Johnson's eight 1st AST selections in the PCHA are indicative of being a top-4 defenseman in all of hockey eight times. The top end talent was spread pretty evenly between the PCHA and NHA/NHL and I see no one other than Cleghorn who was a real challenge to his status as #1 or 2 in the 1912-1919 range. (Gerard may/may not have been better but only started playing defense in 1919)
We should take the PCHA seriously

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
The Pacific Coast Hockey Association (PCHA) was a professional men's ice hockey league in western Canada and the western United States, which operated from 1911 to 1924 when it then merged with the Western Canada Hockey League (WCHL). The PCHA was considered to be a 'major' league of ice hockey and was important in the development of the sport of professional ice hockey through its innovations.

The league was started by the Patrick family, professional hockey players from Montreal, building new arenas in Vancouver and Victoria, British Columbia. After a few years of play, the league was accepted by the Stanley Cup trustees as being of a high enough standard that teams from its league were accepted for Stanley Cup challenges. Starting in 1915, the league entered into an agreement where the Stanley Cup was to be contested between the National Hockey Association and the PCHA after the regular seasons were finished. The league struggled to make money, and various teams moved into different cities in an attempt to be successful financially. Eventually, the league, to survive, merged with the WCHL in 1924.
The WCHL would fold in 1926, ushering in the era when the NHL had all the best talent in North America. But for a number of years, the PCHA was the NHL's main rival.

After the Portland Rosebuds, an American-based team, joined the PCHA in 1914, the Stanley Cup trustees issued a statement that the Cup was no longer for the best team in Canada, but now for the best team in the world.

The PCHA would would win Stanley Cups in 1915 (Vancouver Millionaires) and 1917 (Seattle Metropolitans), beating the NHA winning Ottawa Senators and Montreal Canadians in the finals.

Moose Johnson was the best defenseman in PCHA History

Referree Mike Ion hand-picked all-star teams for the length of the PCHA's existence. I believe he referreed every PCHA game, but I'm not sure, so if you have to rely on the opinion of only one guy, he was the guy you wanted to rely on. These are the 1st Team PCHA All-Star Teams for defense:

1911-12: Moose Johnson, Frank Patrick
1912-13: Moose Johnson, Lester Patrick
1913-14: Moose Johnson, Frank Patrick
1914-15: Moose Johnson, Lester Patrick
1915-16: Moose Johnson, Lester Patrick.
1916-17: Moose Johnson, Lester Patrick
1917-18: Moose Johnson, Bobby Rowe
1918-19: Moose Johnson, Bobby Rowe
1919-20: Art Duncan, Lloyd Cook
1920-21: Lloyd Cook*
1921-22: Art Duncan, Eddie Oatman
1922-23: Lloyd Cook, Bobby Rowe
1923-24: Art Duncan, Clem Loughlin, Gord Fraser

*Only 1 First Teamer is listed on D. Moose Johnson is credited as a 2nd Teamer along with Clem Loughlin and Wilf Loughlin. This is the only time Johnson was credited with being a second teamer.

The strength of the PCHA seemed to peak while Johnson was the dominant defenseman in the league, as the league won Cups in 1915 and 1917.

Moose Johnson's team was not that successful, however, as he only reached the finals once while starring in the PCHA (in 1916).

Pre-PCHA years.

Johnson won 4 Cups, all of them for the Montreal Wanderers before he joined the PCHA. He won 3 straight as a forward (1906, 1907, 1908) and a 4th after converting to defenseman (1910).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail of the Stanley Cup
It is generally supposed that Johnson was always a defence player. Actually he was the speedy left wing on a line with Pud Glass, centred by Ernie Russell that swept everything before them for three successive Cup wins. It was not until his seventh year in hockey that he became a regular defence man with Jack Marshall when the Wanderers again won the championship and Stanley Cup.
Style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Players: The Ultimate A-Z Guide Of Everyone Who Has Ever Played In the NHL
His poke check made it virtually impossible for forwards to get around him with any success... He was a big man, and he played much longer than the average star player... Perhaps most amazing was that in 1900 he absorbed a 2300 volt shock and lost two fingers on his right hand.
Johnson had incredibly long reach, augmented by the longest stick ever used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
It was while playing in Victoria as a member of the Cougars that he was first called Moose. "As far as I know," he recalled later, "I was the first 'Moose' in sports history. Now there are dozens." He was noted for using the longest stick in hockey and had a 99-inch reach. "The year I quit they buried my stick," said Johnson. "It was the longest stick ever used. In those days there was no size regulations and they couldn't take it from me because it was my livelihood." His final year in the PCHA was with Victoria in 1921-22.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trail of the Stanley Cup
Johnson used a very long stick that enabled him to develop an extraordinary skill at playing the puck rather than the man, although he was by no means backward with his bodychecking. He developed his poke check to such an art that in his last few years with Victoria, Lester Patrick used him frequently at rover to spearhead the defence.
"By the time a forward got around Johnson on defense, the rest was easy for me. They were usually somewhere over by the boards." - Jack Marshall, defense partner (via hfboards poster BM67)

For more flowery quotes see seventieslord's profile but I tried to pull out what I thought were most important.

An article after Moose retired in 1922 after 21 years of hockey

An article on Moose Johnson's retirement (via Sturminator)

Quote:
In the hockey world "Moose" Johnson for years has occupied much the same position as did Larry Lajoie in baseball. For 21 years Johnson has been the idol of the hockey fans. He has been cheered and jeered, with emphasis on the cheers. No matter what the reception he always played remarkable hockey.

Big and husky, he carried fear into the hearts of the opposing players when he took the puck down the ice. Criticism from the fan always brought out the best that was in him. Fighting mad he would take chances that meant the constant flirting with serious injury. His nose dives in an effort to beat some player to the puck, and his "poke check", in which he took a big chance of being slashed by opponents' skates, always provided a big thrill.

Johnson began playing in the east in 1901. His long reach, great speed, and powerful build soon attracted much attention. For years, he starred with the Montreal Wanderers, the 1906 world champions, and for six years either holder or runner-up for the Stanley Cup, hockey's most prized trophy.

Johnson has the longest reach of any professional hockey player. He accentuates this with the longest stick used in the game, making him effective as far as 91 inches from the puck. When the cheers of the home fans turned to jeers Johnson decided he was through. In his passing hockey loses a player who has done much to popularize the sport.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:08 PM
  #15
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Jan Suchy

Jan Suchy

REPOST FROM LAST ROUND

Golden Hockey Stick voting for best player in Czechoslovakia existed since 1969

Suchy finished:

1st in 1969 at the age of 25.
1st in 1970
2nd in 1971 to fellow defenseman Frantisek Pospisil (who IMO is a top 60 defenseman of alltime)

Suchy would never finish top 10 in voting again. 1971 was the year of his car accident (not sure if he got in the accident after the season or during the season)

To me, the real question is: How good was Suchy before 1969?

These are his international awards:

IIHF Best Defenseman (1969, 1971)
WC All Star (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

So Suchy probably started to peak in 1968.

Here is a profile of Suchy by Patrick Houda: http://www.1972summitseries.com/othersuchy.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Houda
During his 16 seasons in the Czech league, Suchy racked up 162 goals in 562 games, which made him the highest scoring defenseman in Czechoslovakian league history. He won the league title 7 times (1967-72 and 74).
So it would appear that while Suchy's peak probably only lasted 4 years (1968-1971), he was a useful player outside this time. On the other hand, while Suchy was 1st in Czech league scoring in 1969 and 3rd in 1970, those are the only seasons he was in the top 7 in overall scoring. Source: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=639099

It should be noted that Suchy only played on the Czech national team once after 1971 - in 1973. begbeee found information in czech sources that indicated Suchy would have been allowed to play in the 1972 WCs if he agreed to spy for the communists, but he declined and went to prison for the car accident.

For anyone wondering if Suchy was considered NHL-worthy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Houda
Another interesting tidbit - Suchy was the first European star to be placed under a NHL protected list when the Boston Bruins claimed him as their prospect.
It's not much, but this is the best footage I've seen of Suchy:



Footage from the first 2 minutes are from the 1963 WCs. At 2:00, you get footage from 1969, which is when Suchy played. Just from this video, it appears to me the pace in 1969 was already much higher than in 1963.

Fast forward to 3:10 in for footage from the famous 1969 Czech win over the Soviets. This is the game they won 2-0 (they would win the second game 4-3). Suchy is #17. He's the guy on the far (left) point on what looks like a powerplay and he ends up scoring the first goal of the game after sneaking in from the point on a rebound. This is this famous goal:

Quote:
In the footage from game one, after defenceman Jan Suchy had given CSSR a 1-0-lead, one can see how Jaroslav Holik taunts Soviet goaltender Viktor Zinger after the goal, poking his stick repeatedly at Zinger’s face, calling him a “bloody communist”. Holik even put hockey tape over the Czechoslovak crest on his jersey, covering the star that symbolized the country’s allegiance to the Warsaw Pact.
On Czechoslovakia's second goal, Suchy grabs the puck in the defensive zone, is double-teamed by two Soviets and springs a perfect outlet pass leading to a 2-on-1 Czech goal.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:11 PM
  #16
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
-Among the new additions, Sylvio Mantha showed up probably a round too early, and Doug Wilson is barely even worth discussing. The others I have to think about some more.

-The further we get into this, the more shame I feel about some of the rankings on my original Top 80 list.

-Chara and Moose Johnson should be my top two for this round in some order.
Well, he did win a Norris trophy.

And only Orr & Coffey have ever scored more than his 39 goals in one season.

For those that don't remember him, Wilson had the biggest shot in the game until MacInnis came along.

As I recall he was also a top pair guy, playing both power play and penalty kill.

This is the range I had Wilson in on my original list. (which I am also chuckling at at this point)

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:14 PM
  #17
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Ebbie Goodfellow

In Round 7, overpass made a good profile of Ebbie Goodfellow. It was too early for Ebbie then, but I think he's starting to look like a viable candidate for this round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Ebbie Goodfellow and positions: I posted this in the preliminary discussion thread.

Goodfellow played part of the 1933-34 season at centre and part at defense, before returning to centre for the playoffs. He started the 1934-35 season at defense, but moved back to centre around the new year. Goodfellow finally moved to defense for good in the 1935-36 season.

Mar 31, 1934 Border Cities Star:

Quote:
Ebbie Goodfellow, blonde-haired Ottawa boy who had led an uncertain career most of the Winter...bouncing from centre to defense, and defense to centre...was the hero of the piece.
Quote:
Ebenezer Goodfellow, who a few weeks ago wasn't sure whether he was a defenseman, or a centre, or even how long his job was going to last.
Goodfellow was playing centre in this game, centring Sorrell and Wiseman on the second line, as he did for the rest of that years playoffs. He also played on the power play with Weiland, Lewis, Aurie, and Sorrell.

Leader-Post, Dec 29, 1934:
Quote:
Ebbie Goodfellow will return to his old position at centre with Eddie Wiseman and Johnny Sorrell...
Goodfellow's career looks like this.

The Forward Years (1929/30 through 1932/33)

Goodfellow was a top scorer on a bad, low-scoring team.

1929-30 - Goodfellow was a close second to Carson Cooper in team scoring, on a low-scoring Detroit team. 17th in league scoring.

1930-31 - Goodfellow led the league in scoring for much of the season, finished second in points, and was fourth in Hart voting behind Morenz, Shore, and Clancy. He registered a point on 48 of Detroit's 102 goals.

1931-32 - Goodfellow led the offensively inept Detroit team with 30 points, but finished only 19th in league scoring.

1932-33 - Goodfellow slipped to 20 points, 6th on Detroit. It appears that Detroit had a more balanced attack this season, and Goodfellow played on the second line for much of the season.

The Transition Years (1933/34 and 1934/35)

1933-34 - Goodfellow was off the first line for good, with the arrival of Cooney Weiland. He spent most of the season playing defence. He still scored 26 points, 5th on Detroit, as he was part of Detroit's strong power play unit of Lewis-Weiland-Aurie-Goodfellow-Sorrell. He also received a single vote for the all-star team at defence. One of the quotes above suggests that Goodfellow's job was in danger, so maybe he wasn't playing well earlier this year. In the playoffs, he moved back to second line centre.
Quote:
In order to provide his forwards with every ounce of scoring punch, Manager Adams has moved Ebbie Goodfellow from his defence post to centre.
Quote:
Goodfellow has played defence for the greatest part of the season...
Goodfellow had a strong playoff as Detroit lost in the Stanley Cup finals. Four of those came in the first two games against Toronto, which Detroit won, and Vern Degeer of the Border Cities Star wrote that Goodfellow played two of the greatest games of his career.

1934-35 - Goodfellow started the season at defence. He was on fire, leading all players in the American division in scoring as of Dec 17 with seven goals and 14 points. But around the new year, to break up the team's slump, he was moved back to the second line between Wiseman and Sorrell, where he had played in the playoffs the previous year. The move didn't help, as Detroit missed the playoffs. Goodfellow's point totals remained high despite spending part of the year as a rearguard, finishing fifth in scoring on Detroit once again. His presence on the power play probably drove that, with the five power play players finishing 1 through 5 in scoring on Detroit (Aurie-Lewis-Weiland-Sorrell-Goodfellow.) Goodfellow's position switching in this season may have cost him an all-star spot.

The Defence Years (1935/36 through 1940/41)

1935/36 - Goodfellow moved back to defence for good before the season. He was paired with Ralph "Scotty" Bowman, and Doug Young and Bucko MacDonald formed the starting pairing. Syd Howe replaced Goodfellow on the second line, and Marty Barry replaced Weiland on the first line. As a full-time blueliner, Goodfellow "only" scored 23 points, which still led all defencemen in the league. He was named to the second all-star team after the season. In the playoffs, Detroit won the Stanley Cup.

1936/37 - Detroit returned another strong team this season. Goodfellow and Bowman were the starting pairing this year. Goodfellow finished in a tie with Lionel Conacher for defenceman scoring, behind Babe Siebert. He was named a first-team all-star after the season. In the playoffs, Detroit won their second straight Stanley Cup, and Goodfellow contributed four points in Detroit's first eight playoff games. He missed Game 4 of the final due to injury and played only briefly in the deciding Game 5, but star centre Marty Barry put the team on his back and scored three of Detroit's four goals in those two games.

1937/38 - Detroit crashed hard, missing the playoffs and finishing last in the division, in one of the big stories of the NHL season. Their core players were getting a little long in the tooth, with all of Lewis, Barry, Aurie, Sorrell, and Hec Kilrea aged 30 or older. Goodfellow himself was 30 years old, and he broke his wrist early in the season and missed 18 games in total. It was a season to forget.
Quote:
Big Ebbie Goodfellow, the blond Ottawan with the winning smile, shattering body check, and world of speed, will be on the spot in Detroit tonight...
Quote:
Opinion has been growing lately that Goodfellow's absence for some weeks with an arm injury is the answer to the dismal showing of last season's world champions...
During Goodfellow's absence in November and December, Detroit went 2-10-1. In January, he missed another 5 games and the team was 2-2-1. Overall, Detroit was 8-13-9 (.417) with Goodfellow in the lineup, and 4-12-2 (0.278) while missing Goodfellow. He may not have been in top form even while playing, as he failed to score a goal all season and only had 7 assists.

1938/39 - Goodfellow was named team captain before the season. He played in all 48 games and scored 16 points. Detroit improved, but still failed to make the playoffs. They had failed to bring in enough young talent to replace their aging stars, and struggled to score. Goodfellow's 16 points were good for a tie for fifth among blueliners (Clapper, Heller, Pratt, Shore.) In the all-star voting, he was a non-factor, receiving only 3 votes total, the same as his teammate Bowman.

1939/40 - After two off-years, Goodfellow had a huge comeback season. Detroit continued the rebuilding process, as Jack Adams let Barry, Lewis and Doug Young go and brought in dozens of young players for tryouts, leaving Goodfellow and Bowman as the only holdovers from their championship seasons. The moves led to little on-ice success, as the Wings finished 16-26-6, good for fifth out of seven NHL teams. But Goodfellow scored 28 points, second on a weak Detroit attack. He tied for the lead in points among all defencemen. He was second in all-star voting among defencemen, with 16 first team votes and 9 second team votes to Dit Clapper's 21 and 4. And he won the Hart Trophy in a close vote over Syl Apps and Clapper.

Windsor Daily Star:
Quote:
The Ottawa-born Goodfellow, a 10-year man in the N.H.L., long has been recognized as one of the best defense-men in the league and was chosen this year with Clapper on the first Canadian Press All-Stars team.

Conceded by Manager Jack Adams to have been the rallying force of the Detroit club during the 1939-40 season, Goodfellow was second highest point-scorer for the Red Wings during the season.
1940/41 - Goodfellow continued his strong play at the age of 33. Not only a captain and star player, he became a playing coach for this season also. Adams was still the bench coach, and Goodfellow was an on-ice coach. Detroit's rebuild paid dividends this season, as they finally climbed back over 0.500 and made the Stanley Cup final. Their 102 goals against was a big improvement, and they tied for 2nd in the league in GA. Syd Howe and Goodfellow were the stars once again, and young stars Sid Abel and Jack Stewart were developing. On the ice, Goodfellow was once again among the leading scorers from the blueline, with 22 points. He received substantial support in the all-star voting, with 19 voting points, but finished fifth and fell short of making the first or second team.

Goodfellow was injured in Detroit's first round victory over the defending champion Rangers. His injured elbow and knee kept him out of the rest of the playoffs. Detroit beat Chicago without him, but probably missed him as they were swept by Boston in the final.

The Coaching Years - 1941/42 and 1942/43

1941/42 - Goodfellow was recovering from a knee operation, and only played in 9 games. He continued as a coach of the Red Wings. The team's regular season record suffered, as they dropped below 0.500. They went on a run in the 1942 playoffs, winning the first two rounds and going up on Toronto 3-0 in the final, but lost four straight games to Toronto. Goodfellow's playoff contribution was limited to his coaching duties.

1942/43 - Goodfellow's knee again allowed him into only 11 regular season games, and no playoff games. But by this time Detroit didn't need him on the ice anymore. Under Goodfellow's tutelage, Jack Stewart had developed into the best defenceman in the league. Led by a strong mix of veterans and young players, and coached by Adams and Goodfellow, the Wings won the regular season title and the Stanley Cup.

Random note: Goodfellow was a big man, one of the fastest skaters in hockey, and he had a hard shot. He was also tough.
Quote:
"Goodfellow, long known as the "best one-punch fighter in hockey's history,"

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:16 PM
  #18
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
The guy I was so eager to argue for top-5 this round ain't even available yet.

Wilson? Really?
Total shot in the dark here but I'm guessing that your guy didn't win a Norris.

Don't worry though, I'm sure Housley will be up soon.

Wilson is okay for this round but it's unlikely that he is going to make the top 5.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:22 PM
  #19
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
About four rounds too late, Ken Reardon finally shows up. He might get my first place vote this round, definitely in the top five. His all-star record is phenomenal considering the length of his career.
Really, when Cahra gets another all-star nod this year it will be his 6th in 13 full seasons.

Reardon had 5 in 7 but the 40's was an extremely weak era for Dmen.

No doubt someone is going to argue that his playoff resume is better than Chara's though.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:28 PM
  #20
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
REPOST FROM LAST ROUND

More on Chara: One thing that really impresses me about Chara is that the NHL completely changed the rules during the last lockout in a way that should have really hurt big, slow, defensemen, yet Chara barely missed a beat.

2003-04: The last year before the lockout. Chara builds off his strong 2002-03 season to emerge as a superstar in his own right, finishing second in Norris voting to Scott Niedermayer. The story down the stretch was: Niedermayer's offensive advantage vs. Chara's defensive advantage. The writers went with the guy who put up better numbers. But Chara was great this season - the prototypical shut down defenseman of the dead puck "bigger is better" clutch-and-grab era - and it certainly wasn't becasue of his goaltender (Patrick Lalime).

The NHL changed the rules during the lockout in a way that should have really hurt Chara. Clutch and grab was gone and speed became king. Yet Chara barely missed a beat.

2005-06: Chara finished 4th in Norris voting behind a rejuvenated Nicklas Lidstrom, Scott Niedermayer, and (by far) the best season of Sergei Zubov's career.

2006-07: The one and only bad season of this stretch for Chara. He signed a huge contract and was expected to immediately turn around a dynfunctional Boston team, and failed to deliver. He wasn't awful - but he certainly wasn't up to the standards of what a star defenseman should be.

2007-08: Chara rebounds big time, finishing 3rd in Norris voting behind Nicklas Lidstrom (who blows everyone away with 127 out of 134 first place votes) and Dion Phaneuf's powerplay-driven season.

2008-09: Chara wins the Norris over Mike Green and Nicklas Lidstrom. There's a good case that Lidstrom "deserved" this Norris, but that shouldn't take away from Chara's season.

2009-10: Chara finishes 8th in Norris voting. Slight set back, right? I would argue that Chara may have been just as good at even strength as the previous year, while his PP performance is what dropped off.

In 2008-09, Chara had 20 even strength points and was +23
In 2009-10, Chara had 27 even strength points and was +19

But on the PP:
In 2008-09, Chara had 28 PP points, including 11 PPG
In 2009-10, Chara had 16 PP points, including only 4 PPG

2010-11: Chara finishes 3rd in Norris voting, despite a weak presence on the PP. He again scores 27 even strength points (to go along with a league-leading +33) but only scores 15 points on the PP (though 8 of them are PPGs).

2011-12 (to date): Chara has been strong at both even strength and on the PP. He has 13 even strength points and 12 PP points in 36 games, along with an outstanding +27 (first among defensemen, 3rd behind 2 forwards on his own team) while taking the toughest defensive assignments. Not that the polls section of hfboards is littered with the best hockey minds, but it should be noted that Chara is the runaway winner in the "midseason Norris" poll being conducted: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1072871

And remember: Everything Chara has done after the last lockout has been done with a skillset that would appear to be even better suited to other eras.
Good thing you re posted this, it seems like a couple of guys missed the post in the last round.

Chara is clearly a top 3 guy this round and looks pretty good for #1.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:32 PM
  #21
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Most top 2 finishes

3. Babe Siebert, Butch Bouchard
2. Ebbie Goodfellow, Ken Reardon, Zdeno Chara
1. Sylvio Mantha, Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer, Doug Wilson, Rob Blake
0. Larry Murphy

Most top 3 finishes

4. Zdeno Chara, Butch Bouchard, Ken Reardon
3. Ebbie Goodfellow, Babe Siebert, Rob Blake
2. Sylvio Mantha, Carl Brewer, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson

Most top 5 finishes

5. Ebbie Goodfellow, Ken Reardon, Rob Blake, Zdeno Chara
4. Butch Bouchard, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson
3. Sylvio Mantha,* Babe Siebert, Tom Johson, Carl Brewer

Most placements

7. Larry Murphy, Zdeno Chara
6. Ebbie Goodfellow, Butch Bouchard, Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer, Rob Blake
5. Ken Reardon
4. Sylvio Mantha,* Babe Siebert, Doug Wilson

*Note that data for the first half of Mantha's career is incomplete

Observations:
  • Chara looks awfully good this round, and this isn't even including his 2011-12 year to date where he is currently the favorite for the Norris.
  • This is a great illustration of just how weak Larry Murphy's peak value is compared to other guys available, but just how much he makes up in terms of career value.
Do you have the ranking for Blake and Murphy among Canadians only in their finishes so it's a more apples versus apples comp to compare to earlier players.

I should at some time make an inventory of all the all-star records over the years but feeling a bit lazy today.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 01:47 PM
  #22
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Do you have the ranking for Blake and Murphy among Canadians only in their finishes so it's a more apples versus apples comp to compare to earlier players.

I should at some time make an inventory of all the all-star records over the years but feeling a bit lazy today.
Not offhand, but it shouldn't be hard to do from the data posted in the awards thread.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 02:05 PM
  #23
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,055
vCash: 500
Norris records of Murphy, Blake, and Chara* with all non-Canadians removed

*For Chara, I obviously removed all non-Canadians but him.

Murphy:
6th in 1981 (remove Langway)
2nd in 1987 (remove Howe)
3rd in 1992 (remove Leetch and Housley)
2nd in 1993 (remove Chelios)
3rd in 1995 (remove Chelios)
5th in 1998 (remove Lidstrom)
7th in 1999 (remove Lidstrom, Leetch, Olausson, and Housley)

Blake:
1st in 1998
2nd in 2000 (remove Lidstrom)
3rd in 2001 (remove Lidstrom)
1st in 2002 (remove Lidstrom and Chelios. 4th was Gonchar - this would have been an easy win for Blake in an all-Canadian league).
2nd in 2003 (remove Lidstrom, Hatcher, and Gonchar)
5th in 2004 (remove Chara, Lidstrom, and Schneider)

Chara:
4th in 2003 (remove Lidstrom, Hatcher, and Gonchar)
2nd in 2004
2nd in 2006 (remove Lidstrom and Zubov)
2nd in 2008 (remove Lidstrom)
1st in 2009
7th in 2010 (remove Lidstrom)
2nd in 2011 (remove Lidstrom)

So in this hypothetical Canadian-only league (where we are pretending Chara is Canadian only when comparing him to himself):

Larry Murphy: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th
Rob Blake: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th
Zdeno Chara: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 7th

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 02:10 PM
  #24
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But isn't the short length of his career a negative?

He played 2 very unspectacular years in 1941 and 1942 (not a single All Star vote), then fought in the war for 3 years. Then came back an All Star and was an All Star for 5 straight seasons, then retired.

I think at first glance, he could be underrated because people see he only played 7 years (with only 5 of them really relevant), and forget that he lost 3 to the war. Well, he was definitely underrated by the 6 people who left him out of their top 80 entirely!

But this isn't like Jack Stewart, where we can just assume that Reardon lost all-star calibre hockey to the War, since Reardon was not an all-star (or even close to one) before the war. =why).
While Reardon's seasons were quite "average", let's not forget that he was 19/20 years old at that time and that the only player who did frankly better than Reardon prior to the Expansion is already in since A WHILE (King Clancy). In other words, if Reardon doesn't play in the NHL at an age where nearly no d-men played in the league, all we have is a 5-year stretch of AST, in spite of missing quite a few games for every season.

It's also interesting to note that Reardon played for a moribund franchise that was on the verge of bankruptcy -- thus might have gotten less exposure -- and that he ... actually outscored Stewart those years.


Last edited by MXD: 01-14-2012 at 02:26 PM.
MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2012, 02:30 PM
  #25
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 36,828
vCash: 500
I'll admit that I was one of the guys who didn't have Reardon in my top 80, a stupid mistake that I will blame on me finishing the bottom 40 of the list somewhat quickly and haphazardly. I made a scan through the ATDs to see if I had forgotten anyone obvious that I shouldn't have, and somehow in this double-check Reardon's name slipped through the cracks. Mea culpa, but at least the 2nd round should make up for it somewhat.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.