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Old
01-14-2012, 02:08 PM
  #51
Jumping
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By now everyone should know what the Flyers want

a) a #1 defenseman
b) a 3/4 defenseman whose contract expires at the end of this year, because Pronger could come back or we will make an offer to a free agent #1 defender that he can not refuse.

For "a" we will deal a very good attacking player, a #1 and a prospect - or less
For "b" we will deal a #2 and a prospect

Any other proposals are a waste of bandwidth.

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Old
01-14-2012, 02:09 PM
  #52
Crisp Breakout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You also know that JVr was drafted to one of the deepest and strongest teams in the NHL where he doesn't see top line minutes nor top PP unit time. If you put JVR on a crappy team he'd most likely be on their top line (or at worst their 2nd line even when he was a rookie) and he's DEFINITELY have produced more than he has in Philly.

when you are stuck behind truly great players on a team it's no wonder you aren;t an instant 70 point producer.
While I can't speak to how much of an effect this has had on his production, surely you can see why others do not value him as highly. Hopefully he realizes his potential, but in the meantime when someone acts as if a solid top4 RFA defenseman plus is an insult, most people are going to say potential is just that.

I fully understand he's worth more to you (Stastny raises a similar situation for me). I just don't see the offer as an insult, and frankly was annoyed with the floater comments.

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Old
01-14-2012, 04:05 PM
  #53
Dolph Ziggler
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I'm really hesitant to trade Schwartz, especially without knowing where McDonald will be when he comes back.

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Old
01-14-2012, 04:14 PM
  #54
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[QUOTE=sandlansd;42451333]No from the Flyers.

Value isn't horrible, but it's 2 dimes and a nickel for a quarter...

Well said.

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Old
01-14-2012, 05:59 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SuperSwede21 View Post
Philly would want much more in return for JVR. This kid was supposed to be their cornerstone. I still believe Van Riemsdyk can be a 1st line 70+ point scorer, Bring him to Vancouver to play with the twins.

Daniel - Henrik - JVR = OWNAGE.
ok...you can have him for Edler

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Old
01-14-2012, 07:49 PM
  #56
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The Blues Avs trade is interesting. I think the Avs do it in a second and the Blues stop and think a little more.

I think the JVR trade is close in terms of current value, but I also think if the Avs pull this one off, I'd be amazed.

JVR is worth more to the flyers than Quincey in my opinion...especially long term. I don't think there is any chance the flyers make a trade like this, as much as I would like them to, from an Avs perspective.

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Old
01-14-2012, 07:52 PM
  #57
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Colorado gets shafted in both trades.

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Old
01-14-2012, 07:55 PM
  #58
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I don't see Army trading Tarasenko or Schwartz. There is way too much potential in both of them. I would be interested in Stastny, but not interested in giving up Schwartz.

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Old
01-15-2012, 12:35 PM
  #59
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
While I can't speak to how much of an effect this has had on his production, surely you can see why others do not value him as highly. Hopefully he realizes his potential, but in the meantime when someone acts as if a solid top4 RFA defenseman plus is an insult, most people are going to say potential is just that.

I fully understand he's worth more to you (Stastny raises a similar situation for me). I just don't see the offer as an insult, and frankly was annoyed with the floater comments.
I for one never called him a floater. While the proposal may not have been an "insult", it would be much like you guys trading away Stasny for two or three lesser players and picks who would have a combined "value" of about that of Stasny. IF you are going to trade a highly skilled player (albeit one that may not be meeting those expectations currently) you want to get back a similar high valued/skilled player in return. You can't always do it but normally you do (look at your trade for EJ, you had to give up REAL value for him, not a bunch of 2nd/3rd line tweeners and bottom 4 dmen). THIS is my point.


IMO in a deal of JVR for Quincy + Siemens, JVR will most likely remain the best player in the deal for the balance of their careers. Simens is the type of "high value" player that the Flyers would be wanting in return for JVR if he were to be traded. I can understand that you don't want to trade Siemens as I wouldn't either but if you want a top end talent like JVR then you are going to have to be willing to part with a similar top end talent to get him. If you would rather have Siemens over JVR then that's gine. I personally think JVR will be the better player and I really really don't want to trade him. I personally wouldn't do that trade but seeing how high our staff was on siemens I think they might be willing to trade JVR if Siemens was on the table. If he's not I really can't see the Avs having anything the Flyers would want in exchange for JVr (at least not anything the Avs would be willing to part with for him).

I just can't see any scenario where the Flyers would trade JVR for a package of lesser parts. Depth really isn't an issue for us and we don't need more "depth players" even on defense. While Quincy most certainly WOULD make our defensive core better for this year he really doesn't make us SIGNIFICANTLY better to the point where it justifies us losing JVR. There are other dmen available out there that can improve our defensive core and the cost to aquire them will be far less than JVR. There just is no incentive for the Flyers to make the more as originally posted.

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Old
01-15-2012, 04:07 PM
  #60
i2strange97
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Wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I for one never called him a floater. While the proposal may not have been an "insult", it would be much like you guys trading away Stasny for two or three lesser players and picks who would have a combined "value" of about that of Stasny. IF you are going to trade a highly skilled player (albeit one that may not be meeting those expectations currently) you want to get back a similar high valued/skilled player in return. You can't always do it but normally you do (look at your trade for EJ, you had to give up REAL value for him, not a bunch of 2nd/3rd line tweeners and bottom 4 dmen). THIS is my point.


IMO in a deal of JVR for Quincy + Siemens, JVR will most likely remain the best player in the deal for the balance of their careers. Simens is the type of "high value" player that the Flyers would be wanting in return for JVR if he were to be traded. I can understand that you don't want to trade Siemens as I wouldn't either but if you want a top end talent like JVR then you are going to have to be willing to part with a similar top end talent to get him. If you would rather have Siemens over JVR then that's gine. I personally think JVR will be the better player and I really really don't want to trade him. I personally wouldn't do that trade but seeing how high our staff was on siemens I think they might be willing to trade JVR if Siemens was on the table. If he's not I really can't see the Avs having anything the Flyers would want in exchange for JVr (at least not anything the Avs would be willing to part with for him).

I just can't see any scenario where the Flyers would trade JVR for a package of lesser parts. Depth really isn't an issue for us and we don't need more "depth players" even on defense. While Quincy most certainly WOULD make our defensive core better for this year he really doesn't make us SIGNIFICANTLY better to the point where it justifies us losing JVR. There are other dmen available out there that can improve our defensive core and the cost to aquire them will be far less than JVR. There just is no incentive for the Flyers to make the more as originally posted.
This is a well thought out counter to the previous statement. Great read. If I can chime in...

Fact #1 - I am an Avs fan.
Fact #2 - My knowledge of the players on the Philly roster is limited.

For the Avs to obtain Van Riemsdyk, I agree it would take both Quincey, and Siemens. Van Riemsdyk being a #2 overall is an expensive asset to acquire, the fact that his stats may not be superstar level yet may lower his value slightly, but not much. That said, I, personally, would rather keep Quincey and especially, Siemens.

Would Philly consider trading Simmons or Voracek? Voracek is a player I very much like the looks of. Is acquiring Voracek the same as trying to trade for Van Riemsdyk? Keep in mind, players/draft pics are not the only thing the Avs can offer the Flyers... cap relief. We have one of the lowest salary caps in the NHL, dumping a player on us would allow you more cap room to find that #1 defensemen you want so much.

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Old
01-15-2012, 04:54 PM
  #61
Lonewolfe2015
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Yeah, last time I mentioned Quincey + Duncan as an expected counter by the Flyers I was told that was wrong too.

I'd look to move Quincey for Voracek then, if JvR is off limits. He should be considered a little less valuable I would assume.

As for the Blues deal - not a chance I do that. No Oshie, no Stastny.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:04 PM
  #62
i2strange97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Yeah, last time I mentioned Quincey + Duncan as an expected counter by the Flyers I was told that was wrong too.

I'd look to move Quincey for Voracek then, if JvR is off limits. He should be considered a little less valuable I would assume.

As for the Blues deal - not a chance I do that. No Oshie, no Stastny.
Knowing the little that I do about both players, they seem to be pretty close to equal. They both look like big, skilled wingers, something we could very, very much use.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:16 PM
  #63
Crisp Breakout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i2strange97 View Post
This is a well thought out counter to the previous statement. Great read. If I can chime in...

Fact #1 - I am an Avs fan.
Fact #2 - My knowledge of the players on the Philly roster is limited.

For the Avs to obtain Van Riemsdyk, I agree it would take both Quincey, and Siemens. Van Riemsdyk being a #2 overall is an expensive asset to acquire, the fact that his stats may not be superstar level yet may lower his value slightly, but not much. That said, I, personally, would rather keep Quincey and especially, Siemens.

Would Philly consider trading Simmons or Voracek? Voracek is a player I very much like the looks of. Is acquiring Voracek the same as trying to trade for Van Riemsdyk? Keep in mind, players/draft pics are not the only thing the Avs can offer the Flyers... cap relief. We have one of the lowest salary caps in the NHL, dumping a player on us would allow you more cap room to find that #1 defensemen you want so much.
I disagree with the bolded, and that's essentially what causes the divide in opinion. At what point do you stop the valuation based on draft position and base it on play?

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:16 PM
  #64
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Why the hell would Flyers want Quincey? What does he bring to the table that we don't already have?

and why should Flyers settle for **** that Avs can afford to give up.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:19 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
I disagree with the bolded, and that's essentially what causes the divide in opinion. At what point do you stop the valuation based on draft position and base it on play?
Well Erik Johnson cost a good amount.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:45 PM
  #66
Crisp Breakout
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Well Erik Johnson cost a good amount.
Erik Johnson had put up 40 points as a defenseman. Not to mention, not many first overall picks could have been had for what we gave up.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:47 PM
  #67
bleedblue1223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Erik Johnson had put up 40 points as a defenseman. Not to mention, not many first overall picks could have been had for what we gave up.
No he didn't

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:51 PM
  #68
i2strange97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
I disagree with the bolded, and that's essentially what causes the divide in opinion. At what point do you stop the valuation based on draft position and base it on play?
That's a very valid point, buy my comment/thoughts about "a #2 overall is an expensive asset to acquire" is based on a couple of things for THIS particular player...

- Being drafted 2nd overall means SOMEONE feels your skill set/talent level/compete level is at an extremely high level.
- This is only the players 3nd year in the NHL.
- Every report I can find on the "interweb" suggests this guy has that talent.
- The Flyers management thought so highly of the player they locked him up on a multi-year deal already (and they know a bit more about the player then we do).
- I could go into stats, time on ice, PP time, playing 3rd line minutes and what I thought would happen if Stastny was feeding pucks to him... but this is entirely based on MY opinion.

So, with that said, I feel that if the Avs truly pushed to obtain Mr. Van Riemsdyk, the cost would be our top 4 dman Kyle Quincey and top prospect Duncan Siemens. I personally would NOT make this trade.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:54 PM
  #69
i2strange97
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40 point seasons.

Erik Johnson has yet to have one.

Link

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:56 PM
  #70
Dolph Ziggler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
No he didn't
He did put up 39 though and 33 in a different season where he played less than 70 games.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:58 PM
  #71
bleedblue1223
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Originally Posted by Falco Lombardi View Post
He did put up 39 though and 33 in a different season where he played less than 70 games.
The 39 was when he played 79 games and the 33 was in 69 and over an 82 game pace would've put him at 39 points, still not 40.

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Old
01-15-2012, 05:59 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i2strange97 View Post
Erik Johnson has yet to have one.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
No he didn't
Boy its amazing how defensive Blues fans still are over EJ.

Sorry 39 points in 79 games. HUGE difference.

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Old
01-15-2012, 06:00 PM
  #73
bleedblue1223
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Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
Boy its amazing how defensive Blues fans still are over EJ.

Sorry 39 points in 79 games. HUGE difference.
Just sayin he hasn't scored 40 points yet, that's all.

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Old
01-15-2012, 06:02 PM
  #74
i2strange97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
Boy its amazing how defensive Blues fans still are over EJ.

Sorry 39 points in 79 games. HUGE difference.
Um... last time I checked, I was an Avs fan... but okay.

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Old
01-15-2012, 06:03 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
Boy its amazing how defensive Blues fans still are over EJ.

Sorry 39 points in 79 games. HUGE difference.
Hey don't paint us all with that brush! lol

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