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Selanne - Greatest to never win one of the 3 major awards?

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01-14-2012, 04:51 AM
  #1
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Selanne - Greatest to never win one of the 3 major awards?

Is Teemu Selanne the greatest forward in NHL history to never have won at least one of the 3 major individual awards (Art Ross, Hart, Conn Smythe)?

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01-14-2012, 04:57 AM
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No. For example Jari Kurri was better for sure.

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01-14-2012, 05:44 AM
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No. For example Jari Kurri was better for sure.
"For sure"? You do realize Kurri was no longer relevant after only his 30th birthday and barely an NHLer by his 36th birthday, right? Despite being considered Gretzky's greatest sidekick, he put up just ONE 70-goal season in the FIFTEEN seasons he played alongside the Great One. Bernie Nicholls accomplished the same feat in a single full season. Gretz, Moose and Coffey can be credited with turning the likes of Glenn Anderson and Jari Kurri into HHOFers, because the latter two didn't accomplish **** once they left Edmonton. If anything, an argument can be made that Kurri's career was rather underwhelming when you consider the fact that no player in NHL history played more games alongside Wayne than Jari: 1,259 Games. For comparison-sake, let's take Luc Robitaille and Bernie Nicholls, the two most prolific scorers Gretzky played a significant amount of time with in his post-Oilers days yet two players no one would put in Kurri's class. Lucky played 628 games with Gretzky and notched 730 points in that time, good for scoring rate of 1.16 PPG, which looks that much better when you consider that approximately 25% of their time together came following the last truly high-scoring season in NHL history ('92-'93). Then you have Bernie Nicholls, whose 1.76 PPG scoring rate (137 GP - 241 PTS) is good for the greatest clip by any teammate of Wayne's, yet no one would place him in the HHOF. Kurri was an exceptional backchecker, which is often used in arguments against Selanne, but Jari's offensive totals aren't as impressive upon further inspection.

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01-14-2012, 05:52 AM
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KEEROLE Vatanen
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He could have easily won the hart in I think it was 99' awful team, he was the only reason the team wasn't a joke. I know others had great years, but put any talent around him and he may have led the league in scoring....

regardless, doesn't take away from his career. if he plays next year he could challenge 700 goals

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01-14-2012, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
No. For example Jari Kurri was better for sure.
Disagree. Selanne is better player. Even if not, it's close.

EDIT: BTW Selanne may be the only player whose stats werent hurt by lockout year


Last edited by begbeee: 01-14-2012 at 06:11 AM.
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01-14-2012, 06:16 AM
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Expect Selanne to win the Masterton trophy this year.

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01-14-2012, 08:02 AM
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Expect Selanne to win the Masterton trophy this year.
He has already won it. I don't think it can be won twice by the same player.

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01-14-2012, 11:07 AM
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Excluding Soviets who never played in the NHL, I'd give it to either Syl Apps or Frank Boucher.

Syl Apps, Sr. Runner up for the Art Ross 3 Times. 5-Time Hart finalist (2nd 3 times, 3rd twice). Very good playoff performer, but the Smythe didn't exist at the time.

Frank Boucher. 4 Top 5 finishes in points (2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th), but that likely underrates his offense. He led the league in assists 3 times and was 2nd 3 more times, playing in an era when the league undercounted assists. If the league awarded assists like they do today, he would have had more points. Combined with excellent longevity (8 times top 10 in points, 9 times top 10 in assists) and excellent defensive play. Won 7 Lady Byngs back when that trophy was second only to the Hart in terms of prestige.

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01-14-2012, 11:19 AM
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vadim sharifijanov
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of all postwar NHL players, i think frank mahovlich is the best forward with a mostly bare trophy case (a single calder trophy, though he certainly had his share of post-season all-star nods).

i'd like to hear arguments that selanne can be considered in the same conversation, let alone above, guys like stastny, bucyk, perreault, delvecchio and ullman, etc. not saying the argument can't be made that teemu is close to or perhaps even with some of those guys, but i'd like to hear the arguments. (selanne > kurri, i don't buy)

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01-14-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
of all postwar NHL players, i think frank mahovlich is the best forward with a mostly bare trophy case (a single calder trophy, though he certainly had his share of post-season all-star nods).

i'd like to hear arguments that selanne can be considered in the same conversation, let alone above, guys like stastny, bucyk, perreault, delvecchio and ullman, etc. not saying the argument can't be made that teemu is close to or perhaps even with some of those guys, but i'd like to hear the arguments. (selanne > kurri, i don't buy)
Well, I think it's clear he peaked higher than Bucyk. Bucyk only has 1 top 5 finish in points and that was in 1971 when he finished way behind 2 teammates (Orr and Esposito). Ditto with Delvechhio. Delvecchio has 11 top 10 finishes in points, but only 2 top 5s - a 4th and 5th place finish - while spending the majority of his career on the same line as Gordie Howe. Delvecchio (unlike Selanne) was a great defensive player though. Perreault vs. Selanne is interesting - a large part of the argument for both is excellence in international play. Selanne actually has better points finishes, but there is an argument that Perreault was held back by playing his NHL career on a smaller rink.

My contention is that very little seperates Selanne from Brett Hull in a career sense. Hull has the slightly better peak, but also fewer years as a star.

Good point with Frank Mahovlich though - I'd definitely take him over Teemu.


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01-14-2012, 01:15 PM
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If it wasn't for the single Ross, Marcel Dionne.

Edit: typo


Last edited by Eisen: 01-15-2012 at 04:02 AM.
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01-14-2012, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
No. For example Jari Kurri was better for sure.
Well, Kurri is one of the greats to not win. But Selanne was better. IMO.

I would like to see why you think otherwise.

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01-14-2012, 01:47 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Well, Kurri is one of the greats to not win. But Selanne was better. IMO.

I would like to see why you think otherwise.
The argument is easy - Kurri was much better defensively (as in not even in the same league) and much better in the NHL playoffs.

I'm not sure whether I would pick Kurri or Selanne. I'd definitely pick Apps or Boucher over either, though.

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01-14-2012, 01:55 PM
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Steve Yzerman?

EDIT: Scratch that. I completely blanked out the Smythe.

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01-14-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
If it wasn't dor the single Ross, Marcel Dionne.
This was the first name that came to me too but yeah, barely stealing the Ross from Gretzky on the virtue of scoring 2 more goals despite the fact that Gretzky played one less game.

Anywho...I like Devil's choices and would prolly go with Apps here.

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01-14-2012, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Is Teemu Selanne the greatest forward in NHL history to never have won at least one of the 3 major individual awards (Art Ross, Hart, Conn Smythe)?
Darryl Sittler is far and away the best player with the fewest awards, in my humble opinion.

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01-14-2012, 05:55 PM
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Just tossing out a couple of names:

Doug Gilmour
Brendan Shanahan
Ray Bourque

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01-14-2012, 06:16 PM
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Just tossing out a couple of names:

Doug Gilmour
Brendan Shanahan
Ray Bourque
Should have a winner here.

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01-14-2012, 06:26 PM
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Should have a winner here.
OP said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Is Teemu Selanne the greatest forward in NHL history to never have won at least one of the 3 major individual awards (Art Ross, Hart, Conn Smythe)?
I'd take Kurri over Selšnne as well BTW.

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01-14-2012, 06:38 PM
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OP said:
Well "FORWARD" isn't in the thread title. Maybe an edit is in order.

FTR I would take Gilmour or Shanahan or Neely before Selanne or Kurri.

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01-14-2012, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The argument is easy - Kurri was much better defensively (as in not even in the same league) and much better in the NHL playoffs.

I'm not sure whether I would pick Kurri or Selanne. I'd definitely pick Apps or Boucher over either, though.
I get the defensive part, that can be attributed solely to Kurri's game.

And don't get me wrong Kurri was a great player but the only reason we are even considering him with Selanne in this thread is that his scoring and playoff totals are greatly enhanced by Gretzky.

Even with the total package and picture of regular season, playoffs and international play and prime, peak, career it's pretty hard to argue that Kurri tops out Selanne.

Apps and Boucher I haven't looked at in depth but it doesn't look like either guy has more in total Temmu does IMO.

Selanne has lead an integrated NHL in goals 3 times (with a 2,3 and 10th as well) been top 10 in points 7 seasons and has a 31-20-17-37 line in the Olympics as well as an outstanding non NHL career.

He lead the Finnish league in goals with 39 in 92, the next best had 29 and was 4th in points with 62 at the age of 21.

The previous year at age 20 he was a solid 2nd in the league with 33 goals 2 behind the leader and 5 up on the 3rd place guy and 7th in total points.

we all know about his incredible rookie season where he scored 76 goals, it was a high scoring era and his rookie line comes out to only 62-45-107 adjusted.

62 goals adjsuted is tied for the 22nd best season of all time in terms of goal scoring.

In raw numbers his 76 goals is tied for 5th. And he did this with Housely 2nd in team scoring at 97 points 35 points behind him in team scoring. Zhamnov and Steen were 3rd and 4th with 72 points.

Selanne quite simply is one of the top 10 goal scorers in the history of hockey IMO.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 01-14-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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01-14-2012, 08:03 PM
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I get the defensive part, that can be attributed solely to Kurri's game.

And don't get me wrong Kurri was a great player but the only reason we are even considering him with Selanne in this thread is that his scoring and playoff totals are greatly enhanced by Gretzky.

Even with the total package and picture of regular season, playoffs and international play and prime, peak, career it's pretty hard to argue that Kurri tops out Selanne.

Apps and Boucher I haven't looked at in depth but it doesn't look like either guy has more in total than Temmu does IMO.
If you want to know my honest opinion, most players before 1967 expansion have inflated scoring finishes. Andy Bathgate cracked the top five on 9 occasions, ted lindsay was top three on 6 occasions, henri richard has similar totals to trottier/clarke. Its simply easier to crack the top five and top ten in a much smaller league, with no americans or europeans. The fact that delvecchio was a top ten scorer 11 times just further proves, no one in thier right mind would think he would accomplish that post 1980.

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01-14-2012, 08:14 PM
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If you want to know my honest opinion, most players before 1967 expansion have inflated scoring finishes. Andy Bathgate cracked the top five on 9 occasions, ted lindsay was top three on 6 occasions, henri richard has similar totals to trottier/clarke. Its simply easier to crack the top five and top ten in a much smaller league, with no americans or europeans. The fact that delvecchio was a top ten scorer 11 times just further proves, no one in thier right mind would think he would accomplish that post 1980.
Whether there are Europeans and Americans or not, it was still only a 6 team league. Even with the Euro's and Yanks today, the league itself is still more diluted than it was then.
If you want to make that case for the 70's, as has been done before with some success, then fine but I see no basis for such an argument pre-'67.


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01-14-2012, 08:24 PM
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Whether there are Europeans and Americans or not, it was still only a 6 team league. Even with the Euro's and Yanks today, the league itself is still more diluted than it was then.
If you want to make that case for the 70's, as has been done before with some success, then fine but I see no basis for such an argument pre-'67.
Its not a coincidence that every star from the 0-6 era has a ridiculous amount of top 5 and top 10 finishes. Do you really think bathgate would have 9 top 5 finishes, in the last 40 years two players have done it, mario and gretz. Bathgate couldn't carry thier jock.

How many players post expansion have 11 top ten finishes, delvecchio pulled it off, no way he does it post expansion. Hes not even considered a top 50 all time player. How many players can u name post expansion that have 7 or more top five scoring finishes, it seems like everyone in the 0-6 era was pulling it off. Theres no doubt that playing with howe or a beliveau is going to inflate someone's totals.

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01-14-2012, 08:27 PM
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Its not a coincidence that every star from the 0-6 era has a ridiculous amount of top 5 and top 10 finishes. Do you really think bathgate would have 9 top 5 finishes, in the last 40 years two players have done it, mario and gretz. Bathgate couldn't carry thier jock.

How many players post expansion have 11 top ten finishes, delvecchio pulled it off, no way he does it post expansion. Hes not even considered a top 50 all time player. How many players can u name post expansion that have 7 or more top five scoring finishes, it seems like everyone in the 0-6 era was pulling it off. Theres no doubt that playing with howe or a beliveau is going to inflate someone's totals.
Lets put it another way. Is it easier to finish in the top 10 in scoring for the Olympics or the NHL today?
A condensed group of top players playing together against other condensed groups of top players or a much looser group of top players playing against other much looser groups of top players?
Personally, I think the best players are going to be able to exploit playing against looser groups.

The real question should go the other way though. Does Gretzky still manage to finish with all his top 5 finishes? That's a yes BUT does he do it by the same margins if he's playing against better players on average every shift and isn't able to exploit weak teams?
Even a last place team pre-expansion has a better concentration of talent than any team has today.


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