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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Selanne - Greatest to never win one of the 3 major awards?

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Old
01-14-2012, 08:36 PM
  #26
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Lets put it another way. Is it easier to finish in the top 10 in scoring for the Olympics or the NHL today?
A condensed group of top players playing together against other condensed groups of top players or a much looser group of top players playing against other much looser groups of top players?
Personally, I think the best players are going to be able to exploit playing against looser groups.
well thats not the case after all is it. Yzerman, Messier, Trottier and Lafluer have fewer top 10 scoring finishes than henri richard and andy bathgate, um something about that doesnt seem right. Delvecchio having more top ten finishes than joe sakic? Yeah something about that doesnt seem right. Norm Ullman having identical scoring finishes to mike bossy? Something about that doesnt seem right at all. Ullman, Richard, Bathgate and Delvecchio were not even top 5 forwards in that era.

In the last 43 years, 5 players have consistently finished top five in scoring: jagr, gretzky, mario, espo and dionne. In that 20 year period there were 8-10 players that pulled it off, you dont see a disparity?

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01-14-2012, 09:06 PM
  #27
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Excluding Soviets who never played in the NHL, I'd give it to either Syl Apps or Frank Boucher.

Syl Apps, Sr. Runner up for the Art Ross 3 Times. 5-Time Hart finalist (2nd 3 times, 3rd twice). Very good playoff performer, but the Smythe didn't exist at the time.

Frank Boucher. 4 Top 5 finishes in points (2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th), but that likely underrates his offense. He led the league in assists 3 times and was 2nd 3 more times, playing in an era when the league undercounted assists. If the league awarded assists like they do today, he would have had more points. Combined with excellent longevity (8 times top 10 in points, 9 times top 10 in assists) and excellent defensive play. Won 7 Lady Byngs back when that trophy was second only to the Hart in terms of prestige.
apps ('42) and boucher ('28) most likely would have won smythes.

henri richard is another option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
of all postwar NHL players, i think frank mahovlich is the best forward with a mostly bare trophy case (a single calder trophy, though he certainly had his share of post-season all-star nods).

i'd like to hear arguments that selanne can be considered in the same conversation, let alone above, guys like stastny, bucyk, perreault, delvecchio and ullman, etc. not saying the argument can't be made that teemu is close to or perhaps even with some of those guys, but i'd like to hear the arguments. (selanne > kurri, i don't buy)
norm ullman probably would have won the '65 hart if voting were done as now.


bobby hull scored 37g in 1st 42 games, and dominated hart voting in 1st half.
Quote:
1964-65 HART: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Bobby Hull, Chi LW 103 (88-15)
2. Norm Ullman, Det C 96 (22-74)
3. Gordie Howe, Det RW 35 (9-26)
4. Roger Crozier, Det G 24 (8-16)
5. Charlie Hodge, Mtl G 16 (16-0)
6. Henri Richard, Mtl C 15 (11-4)
7. Stan Mikita, Chi C 14 (1-13)
8. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 5 (1-4)
T9. Alex Delvecchio, Det C/LW 4 (0-4)
T9. Johnny Bower, Tor G 4 (0-4)
T9. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl D 4 (3-1)
T12. Bob Baun, Tor D 1 (0-1)
T12. Claude Provost, Mtl RW 1 (1-0)
T12. Ted Green, Bos D 1 (1-0)
T12. Bill Gadsby, Det D 1 (1-0)
but hull then slumped and then got a knee injury. ended with 39g in 61 games and 3rd in scoring.

ullman led the NHL in goals, was 2nd to mikita in scoring and dominated hart voting in the 2nd half. hull won the hart mostly on 1st half votes.

DRW also finished 1st (last finished 1st in '57) and had best offense, which would probably help ullman.

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Old
01-14-2012, 09:07 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Lets put it another way. Is it easier to finish in the top 10 in scoring for the Olympics or the NHL today?
That's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison because the Olympics are so short there is more room for variance. In particular, a player's scoring finishes are going to be far more correlated to how well their team does because doing well means playing more games generally.

Quote:
A condensed group of top players playing together against other condensed groups of top players or a much looser group of top players playing against other much looser groups of top players?
Personally, I think the best players are going to be able to exploit playing against looser groups
But in a large league, there is far more room for more players to receive 1st line minutes, 1st unit powerplay time, etc. and run up big numbers in a career year or whatever. It's harder to maintain things like "top 10 finishes" in an environment where if you tail off slightly, there are far more players in prime positions to score points who could jump over you.

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01-14-2012, 09:20 PM
  #29
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Ugh, can't believe I forgot Henri Richard. The best even strength player of the 1960s.

He definitely ranks over Selanne.

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01-14-2012, 09:48 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ugh, can't believe I forgot Henri Richard. The best even strength player of the 1960s.

He definitely ranks over Selanne.
Sure he was good but he had the luxury of playing on a Dynasty.

I'll put him up against Gilmour, Shanny, or Neely anyday.

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01-14-2012, 09:52 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Sure he was good but he had the luxury of playing on a Dynasty.

I'll put him up against Gilmour, Shanny, or Neely anyday.
Actually, it was two dynasties... And Henri was a big part of both dynasties, especially the second one.

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01-14-2012, 10:02 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Lets put it another way. Is it easier to finish in the top 10 in scoring for the Olympics or the NHL today?
A condensed group of top players playing together against other condensed groups of top players or a much looser group of top players playing against other much looser groups of top players?
Personally, I think the best players are going to be able to exploit playing against looser groups.

The real question should go the other way though. Does Gretzky still manage to finish with all his top 5 finishes? That's a yes BUT does he do it by the same margins if he's playing against better players on average every shift and isn't able to exploit weak teams?
Even a last place team pre-expansion has a better concentration of talent than any team has today.
Man does that filter process your words before you type them?

In the other thread you are going on and on about Lidstrom having all this incredible talent and are you really going to say that there isn't at least one team, or perhaps many more, that have "less talent" that any team post expansion or do you only mean in the 12 season?

And don't hide behind that sticky that is always spouted here , if you a re going to make comments like that it's pretty easy to go and look at the flow, pace and skill in todays game.

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01-14-2012, 10:06 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Sure he was good but he had the luxury of playing on a Dynasty.

I'll put him up against Gilmour, Shanny, or Neely anyday.
Okay Gilmour, I understand the argument but are you really going to trot out Neely and Shanny here, there are not even very close especially not Neely.

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01-14-2012, 10:15 PM
  #34
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50g in 50gp and he could kick the **** out of 99% of the league.

If that isn't a great player I don't know what is.

Shanny and his 656 career goals is a member of the 50g and 200pim club. Check on how many members that club has in the history of hockey.

I'll put up a decent arguement for any of the three I mentioned against anyone who hasn't won one of the big three.

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01-14-2012, 10:19 PM
  #35
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I'd take Selanne over both Shanahan and Neely. With Neely, the decision is incredibly easy too

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01-14-2012, 10:29 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'd take Selanne over both Shanahan and Neely. With Neely, the decision is incredibly easy too
OK I can understand the whole injury-shortened carreer angle. Howevwer lets not forget tht without the lockout year of total rest Selanne would have likely retired in 2005. His knee was shot and Needed the full year off.

Otherwise:
Are you saying that if you had your choice of two 23yr olds.
Cam Neely and Teemu Selanne.

You are taking Selanne?

Make your argument.


P.S. I fail to see how Selanne has done anythign since his rookie Season to make him more valuable than Shanahan, who is a True "Power Forward".


Last edited by charliolemieux: 01-14-2012 at 10:31 PM. Reason: too many Pabst, not enough english lessons
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01-14-2012, 10:50 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
OK I can understand the whole injury-shortened carreer angle. Howevwer lets not forget tht without the lockout year of total rest Selanne would have likely retired in 2005. His knee was shot and Needed the full year off.

Otherwise:
Are you saying that if you had your choice of two 23yr olds.
Cam Neely and Teemu Selanne.

You are taking Selanne?

Make your argument.


P.S. I fail to see how Selanne has done anythign since his rookie Season to make him more valuable than Shanahan, who is a True "Power Forward".
Selanne was a better offensive player than Cam Neely or Brendan Shanahan and it isn't close.

Top 10 finishes in points:

Selanne: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 8th
Shanahan: 8th, 10th
Cam Neely: none

If my team is already loaded with talent and I need a power forward as a "missing piece," i'd take Shanahan or Neely over Selanne. But the offensive gap between them is enormous. And it's not like Neely was anything special at all defensively. Shanahan became a good defensive player later in his career, but not enough to make up the gap.

Doug Gilmour: 4th, 5th, 7th

I think there's an argument for Gilmour over Selanne to be honest. He was playing Selke-caliber defense when he finished 7th and 4th in consecutive years - as evidence by the fact that he was runner up to Mario Lemieux for the Hart in 1993 when he finished 7th in scoring. Gilmour is by far the best playoff performer of this quartet.

If you're just looking at peak, I'd rank them:
1. Gilmour
2. Selanne
(big gap)
3/4. Shanahan/Neely

Full career:
1. Selanne
2. Gilmour
3. Shanahan
4. Neely

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01-14-2012, 11:02 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
50g in 50gp and he could kick the **** out of 99% of the league.

If that isn't a great player I don't know what is.

Shanny and his 656 career goals is a member of the 50g and 200pim club. Check on how many members that club has in the history of hockey.

I'll put up a decent arguement for any of the three I mentioned against anyone who hasn't won one of the big three.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that fighting and penalty minutes is actually relevant to this sort of discussion.

I also find the whole "50 in 50" thing to be a bit of an overrated achievement, in the same that it doesn't really impress me more if someone scored 50 goals in their first 50 games and then finished the season with 70 goals as compared to a player scoring 40 goals in their first 50 games and finishing with 75.

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01-14-2012, 11:10 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The argument is easy - Kurri was much better defensively (as in not even in the same league) and much better in the NHL playoffs.

I'm not sure whether I would pick Kurri or Selanne. I'd definitely pick Apps or Boucher over either, though.
Kurri had Gretzky as a linemate
Best Selanne ever had was Kariya for a couple years and Andy McDonald

Kurri also played his prime in a much higher scoring era.

Selanne in that era, with Gretz=800 goals

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01-14-2012, 11:13 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Kurri had Gretzky as a linemate
Best Selanne ever had was Kariya for a couple years and Andy McDonald

Kurri also played his prime in a much higher scoring era.

Selanne in that era, with Gretz=800 goals
I'm absolutely sure Selanne would have scores more goals than Kurri id he played on the Oilers. But would the Oilers have won as many Cups without Kurri's defense that allowed Gretzky and Coffey to cheat?

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01-14-2012, 11:22 PM
  #41
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You seem to be under the mistaken impression that fighting and penalty minutes is actually relevant to this sort of discussion.

I also find the whole "50 in 50" thing to be a bit of an overrated achievement, in the same that it doesn't really impress me more if someone scored 50 goals in their first 50 games and then finished the season with 70 goals as compared to a player scoring 40 goals in their first 50 games and finishing with 75.
You cannot dismiss the impact of a tough enforcer on a team. Particularly an enforer calibre fighter who can score 50g a year or even 50 in 50.

Here is a player that is not only an offensive force like a one dimensional Selanne is, but he is an energy player with his physical play plus he is one of the best fighters in the league and would give even the biggest goon a run for his money in a fight.

As much as I like Selanne, I'm taking Neely or Shanny 8 days a week.

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01-14-2012, 11:23 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
You cannot dismiss the impact of a tough enforcer on a team. Particularly an enforer calibre fighter who can score 50g a year or even 50 in 50.

Here is a player that is not only an offensive force like a one dimensional Selanne is, but he is an energy player with his physical play plus he is one of the best fighters in the league and would give even the biggest goon a run for his money in a fight.

As much as I like Selanne, I'm taking Neely or Shanny 8 days a week.
I agree that all that other stuff is important. But the offensie gap between Selanne and Neely is not small.

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01-14-2012, 11:26 PM
  #43
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Selanne was a better offensive player than Cam Neely or Brendan Shanahan and it isn't close.
Top 10 finishes in points:

Selanne: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 8th
Shanahan: 8th, 10th
Cam Neely: none

If my team is already loaded with talent and I need a power forward as a "missing piece," i'd take Shanahan or Neely over Selanne. But the offensive gap between them is enormous. And it's not like Neely was anything special at all defensively. Shanahan became a good defensive player later in his career, but not enough to make up the gap.

Doug Gilmour: 4th, 5th, 7th

I think there's an argument for Gilmour over Selanne to be honest. He was playing Selke-caliber defense when he finished 7th and 4th in consecutive years - as evidence by the fact that he was runner up to Mario Lemieux for the Hart in 1993 when he finished 7th in scoring. Gilmour is by far the best playoff performer of this quartet.

If you're just looking at peak, I'd rank them:
1. Gilmour
2. Selanne
(big gap)
3/4. Shanahan/Neely

Full career:
1. Selanne
2. Gilmour
3. Shanahan
4. Neely
And if Offense was the only point of the game I would agree with you. Otherwise I will gladly take the other qualities that Shanahan and Neely bring over Selanne.

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01-14-2012, 11:29 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
OK I can understand the whole injury-shortened carreer angle. Howevwer lets not forget tht without the lockout year of total rest Selanne would have likely retired in 2005. His knee was shot and Needed the full year off.

Otherwise:
Are you saying that if you had your choice of two 23yr olds.
Cam Neely and Teemu Selanne.

You are taking Selanne?

Make your argument.



P.S. I fail to see how Selanne has done anythign since his rookie Season to make him more valuable than Shanahan, who is a True "Power Forward".
well at age 22 Selanne had that 76 goal season and quite a few points as well with Hosuley as his main support 35 points behind on team scoring.

Neely had 42 goals and 69 points in 69 games with a guy named Bourque leading the team with 81 points.

Man I can't decide who I'd rather have as a 23 year old?

Yeah sure I forgot Selanne had that serious injury aged 23 and Neely never got injured.....

Seriously just stop it now with the Neely thing it isn't going anywhere.

BTW, Selanne has lead the league in scoring a couple of times since his rookie season and been top 10 in points another 6 times.

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01-14-2012, 11:34 PM
  #45
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Selanne was a better defensive and all-ice player than Neely, plus he could generate offense in far more ways and so controlled more of the ice surface.

Also, I really don't regard fighting as that much of a positive for a top line player who should be maximizing their shifts and not wasting time in the penalty box at 5 minutes a chunk.

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01-14-2012, 11:37 PM
  #46
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well at age 22 Selanne had that 76 goal season and quite a few points as well with Hosuley as his main support 35 points behind on team scoring.

Neely had 42 goals and 69 points in 69 games with a guy named Bourque leading the team with 81 points.

Man I can't decide who I'd rather have as a 23 year old?

Yeah sure I forgot Selanne had that serious injury aged 23 and Neely never got injured.....

Seriously just stop it now with the Neely thing it isn't going anywhere.

BTW, Selanne has lead the league in scoring a couple of times since his rookie season and been top 10 in points another 6 times.
So you would rather have a one dimensional scorer than a true power forward?

Ok that is your choice. I think the guy who can not only score at an elite level, but aggitate and defend his team is the "better" player.

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01-14-2012, 11:41 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
So you would rather have a one dimensional scorer than a true power forward?

Ok that is your choice. I think the guy who can not only score at an elite level, but aggitate and defend his team is the "better" player.
would you take shanahan and neely over jagr?

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01-14-2012, 11:44 PM
  #48
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Teemu Selanne was not a one-dimensional scorer, he was an elite offensive player in multiple respects who could both score and pass at a high level.

Cam Neely was a much more "one-dimensional" offensive player than Selanne. His offense is far more tilted towards goal scoring and even at that a disproportionate number of them came from the same area on the ice whereas Selanne was a threat to score from everywhere in the offensive zone (or set up another player).

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01-14-2012, 11:46 PM
  #49
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would you take shanahan and neely over jagr?
Jagr is a level above.

Would you take Lucic/Iginla over Crosby?

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01-15-2012, 02:20 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Jagr is a level above.

Would you take Lucic/Iginla over Crosby?
are you being serious comparing Iggy and Lucic?

and we are talking Selanne here not Gretzky or Lemiuex
Crosby when healthy is the best player in the game , very few others in this thread and definitely not anyone you brought forward was ever in that conversation except perhaps Gilmour for a short period.

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