HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Jacques Martin will be at l'Antichambre tomorrow

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-19-2012, 10:31 AM
  #176
Capitano
Registered User
 
Capitano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,297
vCash: 500
Firing Martin was a huge mistake...how on earth could he think Cunneyworth could be a better coach? HOW?

Capitano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #177
Jakomyte
Registered User
 
Jakomyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,135
vCash: 500
Is it really worth arguing over whether firing JM was the right thing to do? He was fired, it happened, its in the past. I'm more curious about the questions facing the Habs between now and next season. Will there be a new GM? Will we trade a bunch of players, or just try to tweak a few things for next season? Will we continue to plummet and end up with a top 5 pick, or will some of the guys make a push and get close (maybe even in) to the playoffs?

Jakomyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 10:41 AM
  #178
Schooner Guy
Registered User
 
Schooner Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,660
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Is it really worth arguing over whether firing JM was the right thing to do? He was fired, it happened, its in the past. I'm more curious about the questions facing the Habs between now and next season. Will there be a new GM? Will we trade a bunch of players, or just try to tweak a few things for next season? Will we continue to plummet and end up with a top 5 pick, or will some of the guys make a push and get close (maybe even in) to the playoffs?
It concerns me that we have an owner who thinks he's a hockey guy and who caved in to pressure from ignorant mediots and lunatic HF posters who can't skate but think they're hockey experts.

Schooner Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 10:42 AM
  #179
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Is it really worth arguing over whether firing JM was the right thing to do? He was fired, it happened, its in the past. I'm more curious about the questions facing the Habs between now and next season. Will there be a new GM? Will we trade a bunch of players, or just try to tweak a few things for next season? Will we continue to plummet and end up with a top 5 pick, or will some of the guys make a push and get close (maybe even in) to the playoffs?
Seems to me it's more appropriate to talk about JM's firing then talk about GM replacement, trade speculation and tanking; mostly because thread is about JM's interview.

Yea let's start talking about the same thing in every thread. since it's the only subject we should be discussing?

uiCk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #180
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Exactly! Martin had this Habs team overachieving since he arrived in Montreal. We're now seeing this team for what it truly is in terms of calibre.
I don't think they were overachieving under Martin so much as they are underachieving now. For a variety of reasons, coaching certainly being one of them.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 10:49 AM
  #181
Captain Saku
Registered User
 
Captain Saku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 10,863
vCash: 500
One thing you can't say about Martin is that he didn't prepare well his players before the game.

The worst 3 games of the year were under Conneyworth. There was absolutely no excuse for lack of effort for yesterday's game. I'm questioning Cunneyworth's capability to prepare his team before matches.

Captain Saku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 06:09 PM
  #182
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
Firing Martin was a huge mistake...how on earth could he think Cunneyworth could be a better coach? HOW?
Comparing coaches is not a zero sum game.

Just because one coach is bad (Cunneyworth) then the other coach is defaulted to the rating as a good coach (Martin).

What about the reality that Martin was not that good of a coach in Montreal. And, Cunneyworth is not all that good of a coach in this situation either.

Cunneyworth being a bad coach is not a reason for the Canadiens to have kept Martin. That makes no sense. The real question should be asked why Gauthier put Cunneyworth in this position and why did he hire him instead of ___________?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
It concerns me that we have an owner who thinks he's a hockey guy and who caved in to pressure from ignorant mediots and lunatic HF posters who can't skate but think they're hockey experts.
You place waaaaay too much importance on HFBoards. Molson could give a rats ass about what people posting here have to say.

Same holds true for the people who are sending him tweets to his Twitter account. Molson has his people (media employee) deleting and responding to and creating those tweets.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 01-20-2012 at 03:01 PM. Reason: merge
SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 07:24 PM
  #183
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 48,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
It concerns me that we have an owner who thinks he's a hockey guy and who caved in to pressure from ignorant mediots and lunatic HF posters who can't skate but think they're hockey experts.
At one point though, an owner needs to be hockey guy. 'Cause if not, who tells him that his GM sucks? A director of hockey operations? Okay, but who hires this director? If it's the owner, well, again, he needs to be a hockey guy so he'd hire the right director.

Problem though is that even hockey experts were, are and will be fired after 1, 2, or 3 years. This is the kinda business that fires people even if it's not your fault but because it makes you buy time and it's easier to fire you than 20 guys. And frankly, just having played the game, does not make you an expect at teaching the game. Clearly, what you want in a management is people that are way more patient than everything we read in a game day thread. Yet, I can tell you that those hockey experts, put in a situation to have to comment minute by minute, might actually come as guys who aren't patient. And the most impatient people in a concept of a hockey board, might be more patient than you think when they are in their office and confronted by what it is to manage a team.

Gauthier is a professionnal and has done way more than everybody here combine right? Yet, where was his patient in regard to Martin? And the Pearn firing? And all those moves he made that says panic more than anything else. I mean, we HAD to react quickly and get this great PP quaterback in Kaberle no matter the price right?


Last edited by Whitesnake: 01-19-2012 at 07:30 PM.
Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 08:25 PM
  #184
pachorella
Registered User
 
pachorella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 169
vCash: 500
I laugh hard at people saying they were surprised at JM's personality. Yeah I agree it's the first time we see this face of him on l'antichambre. But were people really believed that the face he showed for the media (emotionless zombie) is his real face in life,at least his wife would have divorced him. What you show in public conferences is irrelevant to your own personality. U think a man with JM's success is an emotionless zombie u might be sick in ur head. To achieve what he achieved u need to have a dynamic, super smart with a great sense of humor personality.
and I agree with the posters who highlighted the ability of martin of not cracking up under the nuclear montreal media/fan pressure like all his precedents.

pachorella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2012, 08:58 PM
  #185
Schooner Guy
Registered User
 
Schooner Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,660
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Comparing coaches is not a zero sum game.

Just because one coach is bad (Cunneyworth) then the other coach is defaulted to the rating as a good coach (Martin).

What about the reality that Martin was not that good of a coach in Montreal. And, Cunneyworth is not all that good of a coach in this situation either.

Cunneyworth being a bad coach is not a reason for the Canadiens to have kept Martin. That makes no sense. The real question should be asked why Gauthier put Cunneyworth in this position and why did he hire him instead of ___________?
What more could Jacques Martin have done in his 2+ seasons in Montreal? Should he have made it to the Finals in Year 1? Should he have taken the Habs past Game 7 vs the eventual Stanley Cup champs in Year 2 (don't forget the B's only one won game in regulation in that Habs-Bruins first round series)? Should we have been closer than 2 points out of a playoff spot when he was relieved of his duties in Year 3 with this Bad News Bears hockey club?

I really don't know what else Martin could have done with this team. His preparation and structured defensive system were perfect for this weak team. It gave us a chance to win every game against every team. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would say he wasn't right for this team. Like every coach, he did things that not everyone agrees with but he got the best possible results he could get with this sub-mediocre team.

Schooner Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 03:18 AM
  #186
bravehab
Registered User
 
bravehab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ont Canada
Posts: 245
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to bravehab
fans have a right to *****, its what we do
pay our 100s of dollars for seats, nhl network, buy jerseys and *****
its always been that way

nothing wrong with that at all and every fan base does it

If management is really basing their decisions on the fan reaction that much its their problem not the fans

bravehab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 10:39 AM
  #187
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,191
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Comparing coaches is not a zero sum game.

Just because one coach is bad (Cunneyworth) then the other coach is defaulted to the rating as a good coach (Martin).

What about the reality that Martin was not that good of a coach in Montreal. And, Cunneyworth is not all that good of a coach in this situation either.

Cunneyworth being a bad coach is not a reason for the Canadiens to have kept Martin. That makes no sense. The real question should be asked why Gauthier put Cunneyworth in this position and why did he hire him instead of ___________?
What reality? The reality in your mind?

Because every shred of evidence points to the contrary, I.E that was the best coach we've had in years.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 02:56 PM
  #188
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
What more could Jacques Martin have done in his 2+ seasons in Montreal? Should he have made it to the Finals in Year 1? Should he have taken the Habs past Game 7 vs the eventual Stanley Cup champs in Year 2 (don't forget the B's only one won game in regulation in that Habs-Bruins first round series)? Should we have been closer than 2 points out of a playoff spot when he was relieved of his duties in Year 3 with this Bad News Bears hockey club?

I really don't know what else Martin could have done with this team. His preparation and structured defensive system were perfect for this weak team. It gave us a chance to win every game against every team. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would say he wasn't right for this team. Like every coach, he did things that not everyone agrees with but he got the best possible results he could get with this sub-mediocre team.
No need to beat up Martin since he is gone so I will just give a couple of top line faults of JM.

With the size of this team, we should not have been playing a dump and chase.

With the skaters on this team, we should not have been sitting on leads and playing passively.

The X's and O's of Martin shows that he is a good coach and understands the game of hockey. His main flaw is that he pushed his systems onto the team instead of adapting his system to the team that he had to work with. That and his reluctance to have this team play aggressive hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
What reality? The reality in your mind?

Because every shred of evidence points to the contrary, I.E that was the best coach we've had in years.
Martin was better than Carbo. That still does not amount to being anything to brag about.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 01-20-2012 at 03:01 PM. Reason: merge
SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 03:36 PM
  #189
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 10,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Exactly! Martin had this Habs team overachieving since he arrived in Montreal. We're now seeing this team for what it truly is in terms of calibre. It's comical reading all the Martin haters pathetically spin doctor everything when they should be eating crow.
while i agree with what you've said, it's still too early for crow-eating...

MasterDecoy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 03:51 PM
  #190
McSorleyStick
DECIMA-TING
 
McSorleyStick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Algeria
Posts: 15,043
vCash: 500
JM made a good point when he said that he wa forced to have the forwards playing D in order to support a depleted blue line (Hammer left, Markov's injury)

McSorleyStick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 04:37 PM
  #191
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
JM made a good point when he said that he wa forced to have the forwards playing D in order to support a depleted blue line (Hammer left, Markov's injury)
That's a lame excuse because the forwards have always been defensive minded even when the D was healthy in his first year.

Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 04:58 PM
  #192
Poulet Kostopoulos
Registered User
 
Poulet Kostopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,843
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
JM made a good point when he said that he wa forced to have the forwards playing D in order to support a depleted blue line (Hammer left, Markov's injury)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
That's a lame excuse because the forwards have always been defensive minded even when the D was healthy in his first year.
Not hard to believe actually. I was suspecting that before he said it. The forwards had to be MORE defensively minded and support the weaker D MORE. The keyword is *more*.

Poulet Kostopoulos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 05:14 PM
  #193
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
Not hard to believe actually. I was suspecting that before he said it. The forwards had to be MORE defensively minded and support the weaker D MORE. The keyword is *more*.

Now help me remember what the name of our GM is who put together this "weaker" D?

Oh, I remember. Gauthier.

Some fans say Gauthier is an average GM and should remain in Montreal indefinitely. How could an average GM put together a "weaker" D?

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 09:39 PM
  #194
Schooner Guy
Registered User
 
Schooner Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,660
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No need to beat up Martin since he is gone so I will just give a couple of top line faults of JM.

With the size of this team, we should not have been playing a dump and chase.

With the skaters on this team, we should not have been sitting on leads and playing passively.

The X's and O's of Martin shows that he is a good coach and understands the game of hockey. His main flaw is that he pushed his systems onto the team instead of adapting his system to the team that he had to work with. That and his reluctance to have this team play aggressive hockey.
I noticed you totally avoided the crux of my post as well as the pivotal questions. What more could Martin have done with this team in terms of results? Isn't that what a head coach should be judged by? He got a sub-mediocre team to overachieve during his entire tenure with the Habs.

By the way, his team was not playing a dump and chase game. The Habs were playing a very conservative but also a very structured defensive game in all three zones with quick transition and strong puck support. It was a system that gave this roster its best chance to win on a nightly basis. We're not going to win many games by opening it up. Not many teams can win that way in this era and certainly not us.

Schooner Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 10:25 PM
  #195
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
I noticed you totally avoided the crux of my post as well as the pivotal questions. What more could Martin have done with this team in terms of results? Isn't that what a head coach should be judged by? He got a sub-mediocre team to overachieve during his entire tenure with the Habs.

By the way, his team was not playing a dump and chase game. The Habs were playing a very conservative but also a very structured defensive game in all three zones with quick transition and strong puck support. It was a system that gave this roster its best chance to win on a nightly basis. We're not going to win many games by opening it up. Not many teams can win that way in this era and certainly not us.
Martin could/should have earned the respect of ALL of his players. This leads into a philosophical discussion about the impact that a coach has on his players. Either you believe in that intangible of a coach or not.

In essence, it was clear to everyone........players, fans, analysts......that Martin had a distinct hierarchy with his players that was not conductive to success. Players like Gomez, Gill, Cammalleri, Darche etc could make numerous errors in a game and not be penalized for those errors. Players like Eller, Kostitsyn, Emelin were not given any room for error and were punished swiftly.

It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that the players on Martin's "safe list" soon came to realize that regardless of what they did, they would not be punished so their compete level diminished. And conversely, the players who were not on that list soon came to the realization that they had to play a perfect game and thus the additional pressure in the quest for perfection led to more mistakes.

It was a lose lose. So to answer your question, Martin should have held ALL of his players to the same standard of performance. That hurt his results.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 10:34 PM
  #196
HCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Wild West
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
What reality? The reality in your mind?

Because every shred of evidence points to the contrary, I.E that was the best coach we've had in years.
Sub-500... so if that is good enough for you, then you are right, we should have kept Martin.

Cunneyworth was hired as an interim coach. That fact seems to be lost on many of the posters here as well as the fans and the media. Clearly Martin was not going to lead us to anything but continued mediocrity.

The other thing we don't know is the mandate that Cunneyworth has been given. Has been asked to showcase certain players. I doubt that he has, but it remains a possibility. In the end, some of his decisions are as baffling as Martin's but we certainly didn't lose a shot at winning the Cup by changing coaches.

Actually the evidence points to Julien and Vigneault as the best coaches we've had in years and then there was Carbonneau who led the team to a first place finish. Martin? Well he had a fluke playoff run and not much else that pointed to him being the answer.

HCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 10:39 PM
  #197
Avim86
Registered User
 
Avim86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal , Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,517
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
Firing Martin was a huge mistake...how on earth could he think Cunneyworth could be a better coach? HOW?
Question is though would people be saying this if Habs magically turned around their season?


Avim86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 11:06 PM
  #198
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK46Awesome View Post
Question is though would people be saying this if Habs magically turned around their season?
The season was being turned around when Martin was fired. Not magically, because it usually doesn't happen that way, especially with teams as battered as the Habs, but they were slowly inching up the standings.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2012, 11:20 PM
  #199
Crystal Met
Registered User
 
Crystal Met's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pachorella View Post
I laugh hard at people saying they were surprised at JM's personality. Yeah I agree it's the first time we see this face of him on l'antichambre. But were people really believed that the face he showed for the media (emotionless zombie) is his real face in life,at least his wife would have divorced him. What you show in public conferences is irrelevant to your own personality. U think a man with JM's success is an emotionless zombie u might be sick in ur head. To achieve what he achieved u need to have a dynamic, super smart with a great sense of humor personality.
and I agree with the posters who highlighted the ability of martin of not cracking up under the nuclear montreal media/fan pressure like all his precedents.
well she did, i read it here and she got a lot of loot from it

Crystal Met is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 12:03 AM
  #200
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,191
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The season was being turned around when Martin was fired. Not magically, because it usually doesn't happen that way, especially with teams as battered as the Habs, but they were slowly inching up the standings.
Yep, they only lost one game in regulation in December when he got fired and it was the game Chris Lee looked drunk in. They had just got 9 points out of a possible 12, were 2 games above .500 (3 before the Philly game) and 2 points out of a playoff spot. With the defense he had (or didn't have) a coach like Martin was our only hope. Now keep in mind we're talking about the most injured team in the league at the time and he had them right in the thick of things. Firing him basically sealed the deal for the season and it's going to cost them big in terms of revenue and long term damage to the organization and more importantly it sent the completely wrong message to the players. I think a lot of them liked Martin as coach despite what the experts on HFboards think. Fact is JM took this team further than any other coach in the last decade in the playoffs (call it a fluke all you want if it makes you feel better fact is he did) and on his second year the team just about took out the Stanley Cup champs (1 goal decided that fantastic series) and that is without Markov, Gorges and Pacioretty. Firing him was a Terrible, terrible mistake. The team has turned into a huge mess basically as a result. I just hope they can turn this around next season but I don't know if that's going to be possible that quickly at this point.

It's too bad, because with the return of some bodies and maybe Markov late in the year I really think they could have built on their past success in the last two playoffs and done some damage. Really is a shame.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.