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Old
01-19-2012, 09:37 AM
  #76
NigelTufnel
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Re. Hayes...

I seem to remember reading some rumour about him asking to be traded to the Hawks as his brother was there.

Not sure if true or not, but it would make sense as to why burke moved him

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01-19-2012, 09:39 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Before we accept all of your assessments on players and prospects can you tell us a little about your hockey and scouting background? A lot of absolute statements in here that could only be made by a professional hockey person with very good qualifications.

Thanks.
Just to verify,
1) You are happy with the trade?
2) You have seen Hayes play and still feel he can't skate?
3) You can't define soft (as in a hockey player)?
4) (IMO) = absolute statement?
5) Comments on others posts and using stats as to Kaberle.
6) Comments on statements made in threads at time of trade mixed with fan comments in this thread.
7) Maybe should have noted (IMO) but are you claiming Stalberg was good defensively prior to being taught? OR Are you claiming getting the puck out of your end of the ice doesn't lead to more offense?
8) = my assessment of what you folks type combined with my oft stated opine over these last 4 years.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings. In my opinion the Leafs are still not a playoff team. All of you throw blind faith behind the goalie dujour and build up kids who haven't already had a chance to come up and fail (not be a star). It never seems to end, your team is always on the cusp and next year will be the year yet you have a veteran squad with middle of the pack prospects 4/5 years into Burke's fifedome. Some of you are pleased with that. That blows my mind.

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01-19-2012, 09:41 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
I'll let you know after I write my detailed analysis of Blackhawks' and Leafs' prospects telling everyone exactly how they will end up 10 years from now.

Thought that you would be bright enough to get my point.
Maybe one of your boards mods can explain the meaning of (IMO) to you.

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01-19-2012, 09:42 AM
  #79
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These trades were an example of Burke still trying to expedite the rebuild instead of just waiting for the team's young assets to develop. Chicago had identified the first forward they could do without and Burke bit on the bait. Versteeg acted like an immature b-star-star-star-star-star while he was here and I think the turning point with Burke for me was the moment he moved Versteeg for draft picks ushering in patience over trying to force out a winning team.

I guess the other perspective with Versteeg having offensive success in Florida is that Burke once again reacted rashly like he did getting Stalberg out of town after his loud-mouthed dressing room personality had rubbed the new captain the wrong way. I choose not to see things that way but perhaps that's because I like Stalberg and didn't like Versteeg.

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01-19-2012, 09:49 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
I'll let you know after I write my detailed analysis of Blackhawks' and Leafs' prospects telling everyone exactly how they will end up 10 years from now.

Thought that you would be bright enough to get my point.
AND

This statement you made fits perfectly with what I wrote.
(not all Leafs fans but evidently) YOU prefer kids in juniors you can build up to actual talent on the team. Deny it all you want Toronto should be a better team if the Leaf/Hawk deals never happened. I write should be because (debate it if you want) Stalberg spent a season on the big club in Toronto and could only play on half the ice. One year of playing a role where he HAD to play defense and being punished by losing ice time for not doing it right and he is not the same player you gave away.

At some point what happened in Chicago (fans staying home because of poor management/ownership) should probably happen in Toronto. AS STATED You are a very passionate (and knowledgable) group. That the team would not commit to build is crazy. (IMO) oft injured #1 centers and middling guys like MacArthur and Kulemin as counted on 2nd liners is not going to ever get you there.

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01-19-2012, 09:51 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
I'll let you know after I write my detailed analysis of Blackhawks' and Leafs' prospects telling everyone exactly how they will end up 10 years from now.

Thought that you would be bright enough to get my point.
I know you're bright enough to get the irony.

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01-19-2012, 09:57 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by brevard View Post
Just to verify,
1) You are happy with the trade?
2) You have seen Hayes play and still feel he can't skate?
3) You can't define soft (as in a hockey player)?
4) (IMO) = absolute statement?
5) Comments on others posts and using stats as to Kaberle.
6) Comments on statements made in threads at time of trade mixed with fan comments in this thread.
7) Maybe should have noted (IMO) but are you claiming Stalberg was good defensively prior to being taught? OR Are you claiming getting the puck out of your end of the ice doesn't lead to more offense?
8) = my assessment of what you folks type combined with my oft stated opine over these last 4 years.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings. In my opinion the Leafs are still not a playoff team. All of you throw blind faith behind the goalie dujour and build up kids who haven't already had a chance to come up and fail (not be a star). It never seems to end, your team is always on the cusp and next year will be the year yet you have a veteran squad with middle of the pack prospects 4/5 years into Burke's fifedome. Some of you are pleased with that. That blows my mind.
Where did you see all of this complaining about Jimmy Hayes' skating? He wasn't discussed much at all because we only ever got to see him play a few games the whole time he was a Leafs prospect. You are building something up just to take pot shots at Leafs fans which is technically trolling. If there was any mention of Hayes' skating it probably came from an independent scouting report.

If this is all IMO then why are you so dedicated to it? If it is indeed your opinion then no one cares because no one could seriously accept that you know anything about Leafs's prospects.

Burke made his trades because he was building his team and didn't see Stalberg and Hayes as fits. When they slump will you be back in here?

It is kind of funny to see you put down the Leafs drafting and at the same time glorifying two of their draft picks but I don't think that recognizing irony is a strong suit for you.

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01-19-2012, 09:59 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by StarBurns View Post
I know you're bright enough to get the irony.
Sure, if it was there.

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01-19-2012, 10:10 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Sure, if it was there.
I'll agree on one thing: Brevard is definitely trolling. There seems to be a theme with Blackhawks' fans who come to troll these threads: They seem to believe that the recent success of their team, a team they ignored in droves for a decade, qualifies them as experts to comment especially on things I'm sure they know little about like the current stable of Leafs' prospects.

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01-19-2012, 10:12 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by StarBurns View Post
I'll agree on one thing: Brevard is definitely trolling. There seems to be a theme with Blackhawks' fans who come to troll these threads: They seem to believe that the recent success of their team, a team they ignored in droves for a decade, qualifies them as experts.
Maybe he should be talking to his fellow Chicago fans who last year wanted Stalberg to leave and never return.

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01-19-2012, 10:24 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by brevard View Post
Some things of note from this thread.

1) As it has come around in the Hawk deals you have gained.
Brad Ross, Percy Stuart, Josh Leivo
and have lost
Viktor Stalberg, Jimmy Hayes and Brandon Saad along with Didomenico and Paradis And you guys are happy with that?

2) Many of you think Jimmy Hayes is slow (can't skate) Not sure what has happened over the last 2 years but this claim is false.

3) Some have claimed Hayes is soft. Please explain (define) soft. ... Does he go looking to crush people? NO. Does he play tough in corners, take a beating to make plays in high traffic areas such as the slot? YES. Is he willing to take the abuse needed for a big guy to both score and create opportunities (screens) for others? YES. ... The reality is he is EXACTLY what your team needs NOW in it's top 6 but you are all happier to have a guy in juniors you can over rate.

4) The fact of the matter is you HOPE the guys you have right now end up as good as Stalberg. Rating these guys now 1 thru 6 as to their top out (IMO) Leivo and Saad are tied for 3rd behind Stalberg and Hayes. Percy seems to have decent skills, Ross is a projected 3rd liner (at best?).

5) Several posters make statement like it didn't work out here (Versteeg) all the guy did was ... (Versteeg and Stalberg) at what point do you look at your coaches rather than blaming the player? Going back in time we often compared Kaberle and Campbell. The fact was Campbell came to Chicago and was taught (forced) to play defense within the system while Kaberle was consistently one of the worst defensive D-men in hockey. Again at what point is coaching/system to blame.

6) More than 1 person said how were we to know Versteeg was ... (soft/perimeter/prone to turnovers) ... Check the thread when the trade happened. "We" all told you that is what he was. He was good for 1 decent offensive rush per game and one major bonehead turnover leading to a 3 on 1 against. This was acceptable on the 3rd line playing limited time against other 3rd and 4th lines you don't win playing that guy 20 minutes against top talent. Do the Leafs have scouts? If fans who watched him play knew this how did professional scout not know this?

7) Stalberg came to Chicago with NO defensive skills at all. He spent last year playing on lower lines and has become (was forced) very responsible in his own end. Is he great? NO. but getting continually better. Rather than saying "good on him" how come nobody asks why Toronto's coaches didn't invest in making him this type of player. He will become a better scorer as time goes on because the puck will be in the other teams end of the ice.

8) You guys seem to be happier having prospects you can build up rather than actual talent on the team. Yet those prospects are not even that good. I would have a hard time trading away Shaw, Hayes, Smith, Morin, Saad, McNeil or Pirri for pretty much anything you folks are claiming to be high level prospects. The team is weak (and now out of the top 8) and the cupboard is pretty bare. Burke should have blown this up 4 years ago and didn't. That team and organization are a mess which kind of sucks. You are a loyal and passionate fan base and deserve better.
Very nice post.

Tell your GM to stay away from my GM!

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01-19-2012, 10:53 AM
  #87
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I caught yesterdays Hawks / Sabres game and both Stalberg and Hayes are playing very well right now.

Hayes scored a beautiful goal as he went hard to the net to receive a perfect pass in flight.

Stalberg's speed really opens the ice for Kane and Toews and seems like the perfect fit to stretch the defense.

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01-19-2012, 11:10 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by StarBurns View Post
I'll agree on one thing: Brevard is definitely trolling. There seems to be a theme with Blackhawks' fans who come to troll these threads: They seem to believe that the recent success of their team, a team they ignored in droves for a decade, qualifies them as experts to comment especially on things I'm sure they know little about like the current stable of Leafs' prospects.
I wasn't trolling, it was a legitimate response. I think if you want to see trolling see the 1st person who replied.

I've been a fan all my life (never scouted though ) back in the day we would travel (father and uncle) to Detroit and St.Louis to watch games because you couldn't get a ticket for a home game. A common misconception by fans of other teams is that fans ignored the Hawks. ... We just refused to pay to see a team that had no chance of winning at the time and was not building toward anything. There is a difference between ignoring and not paying to see games.

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01-19-2012, 11:33 AM
  #89
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. We just refused to pay to see a team that had no chance of winning at the time and was not building toward anything. There is a difference between ignoring and not paying to see games.
If Leaf Nation fans followed that similar concept and stayed away from the ACC while the team was going through long non playoff years than Ownership would have real incentive to produce better results on the ice to bring the fans back.

What Chicago did was accept the losses in gate receipts to land players like Kane and Toews. In turn the sacrifice financially by Hawks ownership repaid the fans in spades with a Stanley Cup. They announced yesterday Hawks have the NHL's largest seating capacity Arena and now have a long consecutive sellout string going. Everyone in Chicago is happy now Ownership, Management and Fans alike as the end justified the means.

"Build it and they will come".

Watching Leafs picks Stalberg and Hayes having success and able to make and perform on a top NHL team, but not considered good enough for the Leafs team does hurt. Having to watch a player like Lombardi making $3.5 mil in 27 games with 3-5-8 points , as opposed to Stalberg or Hayes both making $875k because management believes it makes us a better team is a bitter pill to swallow particularly those fans that support draft rebuilds.

I disliked the Stalberg trade from the minute it was made as it was easy to see this kid had all the tools desired to be a good NHL player and just needed to get the toolbox sorted out to achieve that.

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01-19-2012, 11:35 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Where did you see all of this complaining about Jimmy Hayes' skating? He wasn't discussed much at all because we only ever got to see him play a few games the whole time he was a Leafs prospect. You are building something up just to take pot shots at Leafs fans which is technically trolling. If there was any mention of Hayes' skating it probably came from an independent scouting report.

If this is all IMO then why are you so dedicated to it? If it is indeed your opinion then no one cares because no one could seriously accept that you know anything about Leafs's prospects.

Burke made his trades because he was building his team and didn't see Stalberg and Hayes as fits. When they slump will you be back in here?

It is kind of funny to see you put down the Leafs drafting and at the same time glorifying two of their draft picks but I don't think that recognizing irony is a strong suit for you.
If recognizing irony is my weak spot then reading comprehension is yours, "middle of the pack" is not exactly putting down. The fact is there are some decent kids but you also lack 2 guys who would be on your team right now and the team would be better (Stalberg and Hayes) yet some people on this thread seem to think there is no room for them.
If I have trashed anything about the Leafs it is coaching/development. From 2000 to 2008 Toronto has 4 drafted players making ANY type of impact on their team while 11 guys are having ANY type of success on other teams. I guess some can claim all those guys were moved to upgrade the roster but then I look at the standings ... Percy and Leivo both appear to be good prospects. Don't some of you wonder what team they will end up with when they are discarded after being allowed to flounder in your nonexistant developmental system?

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01-19-2012, 11:44 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by brevard View Post
If recognizing irony is my weak spot then reading comprehension is yours, "middle of the pack" is not exactly putting down. The fact is there are some decent kids but you also lack 2 guys who would be on your team right now and the team would be better (Stalberg and Hayes) yet some people on this thread seem to think there is no room for them.
If I have trashed anything about the Leafs it is coaching/development. From 2000 to 2008 Toronto has 4 drafted players making ANY type of impact on their team while 11 guys are having ANY type of success on other teams. I guess some can claim all those guys were moved to upgrade the roster but then I look at the standings ... Percy and Leivo both appear to be good prospects. Don't some of you wonder what team they will end up with when they are discarded after being allowed to flounder in your nonexistant developmental system?
"Nonexistent developmental system". Please stop trolling and I don't care what other people allegedly said about Stalberg and Hayes, I always liked Stalberg and Hayes I didn't know much about.

Have to thank the Hawks for Reimer and Holzer though, how is Tony Lagerstrom doing these days?

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01-19-2012, 11:47 AM
  #92
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When things go badly, they really go badly. Three game losing streak, the Leafs are accused of being too soft and being too small up front, all the while, big bodied, speedy Viktor Stalberg (traded for a midget in Versteeg) and big bodied Jimmy Hayes (traded for a pick we used to get a smaller Brad Ross) are both lighting it up. Damn.

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01-19-2012, 11:48 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
If Leaf Nation fans followed that similar concept and stayed away from the ACC while the team was going through long non playoff years than Ownership would have real incentive to produce better results on the ice to bring the fans back.

What Chicago did was accept the losses in gate receipts to land players like Kane and Toews. In turn the sacrifice financially by Hawks ownership repaid the fans in spades with a Stanley Cup. They announced yesterday Hawks have the NHL's largest seating capacity Arena and now have a long consecutive sellout string going. Everyone in Chicago is happy now Ownership, Management and Fans alike as the end justified the means.

"Build it and they will come".

Watching Leafs picks Stalberg and Hayes having success and able to make and perform on a top NHL team, but not considered good enough for the Leafs team does hurt. Having to watch a player like Lombardi making $3.5 mil in 27 games with 3-5-8 points , as opposed to Stalberg or Hayes both making $875k because management believes it makes us a better team is a bitter pill to swallow particularly those fans that support draft rebuilds.

I disliked the Stalberg trade from the minute it was made as it was easy to see this kid had all the tools desired to be a good NHL player and just needed to get the toolbox sorted out to achieve that.
Chicago was saved when the old man (Bill Wirtz) died, then the son that was supposed to get the team switched roles with the one who actually loved the game. From a week after the funeral he was all over the papers and TV promising to spend what it took to grow the team long term. Chicago has both a ton of talent on the team and a deep prospect pool today. The owner is willing to eat bad money (Huet) and sign guys to fair deals (see past owner and Roenick/Belfour/Wilson/...). They used the loopholes in the CBA in a red wing like fashion to bring guys in and resign guys that make the team better (Hossa among others) Those deals mean Chicago's actual payroll is about 15 million more than the cap.
The old man wanted to spend 40m make 50m and have 10 mill in profit. Rocky (the son) is willing to spend 75m to make 85m. The fans are back, the team plays hard and has a chance to win every night.

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01-19-2012, 12:17 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by StarBurns View Post

I guess the other perspective with Versteeg having offensive success in Florida is that Burke once again reacted rashly like he did getting Stalberg out of town after his loud-mouthed dressing room personality had rubbed the new captain the wrong way. I choose not to see things that way but perhaps that's because I like Stalberg and didn't like Versteeg.
Since winning the cup, Kris Versteeg has played on 4 different NHL teams. For a guy that has such obvious offensive ability, that doesn't come across as strange to you?

I recall whispers about this guy's attitude and personality in the room, even before he was traded here. Philadelphia didn't exactly wait on him either, so perhaps there was some truth to that suggestion?

Don't be so quick to suggest Burke made mistakes.

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01-19-2012, 12:26 PM
  #95
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Chicago was saved when the old man (Bill Wirtz) died, then the son that was supposed to get the team switched roles with the one who actually loved the game. From a week after the funeral he was all over the papers and TV promising to spend what it took to grow the team long term. Chicago has both a ton of talent on the team and a deep prospect pool today. The owner is willing to eat bad money (Huet) and sign guys to fair deals (see past owner and Roenick/Belfour/Wilson/...). They used the loopholes in the CBA in a red wing like fashion to bring guys in and resign guys that make the team better (Hossa among others) Those deals mean Chicago's actual payroll is about 15 million more than the cap.
The old man wanted to spend 40m make 50m and have 10 mill in profit. Rocky (the son) is willing to spend 75m to make 85m. The fans are back, the team plays hard and has a chance to win every night.
Been there done that, so your preaching to the choir.

Diehard longtime Leafs fans endured our own Bill Wirtz through the dark Harold Ballard years in Leafs history.

Unlike the Hawks story however who had a happy ending for a long-time suffering fan base due to ownership change, Leaf Nation fans still suffer on despite our similar tyrant Era being behind us.

From 1967 (our last championship) to 2004 lockout, 2 consecutive non playoff years was the longest any Leaf fan had to endue without enjoying playoff hockey despite the antics of Ballard. Now we are sitting through 6 straight seasons and counting. What do the current Leafs squad have to show in young talent for that sacrifice from all these non playoff years which should have been early draft picks?

The common theme will be that our Ownership while different refuses to do what Chicago did in order to procure its Stanley Cup talent and that is draft it, through "go big or go home" mentality. Young players like Hayes and Stalberg that could have been a part of our future are now cost effective producing players surrounding your stars, that continue to fuel Hawks fans fire for success.

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01-19-2012, 12:35 PM
  #96
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Been there done that, so your preaching to the choir.

Diehard longtime Leafs fans endured our own Bill Wirtz through the dark Harold Ballard years in Leafs history.

Unlike the Hawks story however who had a happy ending for a long-time suffering fan base due to ownership change, Leaf Nation fans still suffer on despite our similar tyrant Era being behind us.
Why do you need a history lesson? I know that you love to moan and cry about your terrible plight which is easily fixable by choosing another team to support but Stavro did the same thing that Wirtz' son did by opening up his wallet which then was followed by two conference finals appearances.

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01-19-2012, 12:48 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by brevard View Post
Just to verify,
1) You are happy with the trade?
2) You have seen Hayes play and still feel he can't skate?
3) You can't define soft (as in a hockey player)?
4) (IMO) = absolute statement?
5) Comments on others posts and using stats as to Kaberle.
6) Comments on statements made in threads at time of trade mixed with fan comments in this thread.
7) Maybe should have noted (IMO) but are you claiming Stalberg was good defensively prior to being taught? OR Are you claiming getting the puck out of your end of the ice doesn't lead to more offense?
8) = my assessment of what you folks type combined with my oft stated opine over these last 4 years.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings. In my opinion the Leafs are still not a playoff team. All of you throw blind faith behind the goalie dujour and build up kids who haven't already had a chance to come up and fail (not be a star). It never seems to end, your team is always on the cusp and next year will be the year yet you have a veteran squad with middle of the pack prospects 4/5 years into Burke's fifedome. Some of you are pleased with that. That blows my mind.
the Leafs have a veteran squad? the youngest team in the league is a veteran squad? that statement sums up the rest of the assessment IMO

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01-19-2012, 12:48 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Where did you see all of this complaining about Jimmy Hayes' skating? He wasn't discussed much at all because we only ever got to see him play a few games the whole time he was a Leafs prospect. You are building something up just to take pot shots at Leafs fans which is technically trolling. If there was any mention of Hayes' skating it probably came from an independent scouting report.

If this is all IMO then why are you so dedicated to it? If it is indeed your opinion then no one cares because no one could seriously accept that you know anything about Leafs's prospects.

Burke made his trades because he was building his team and didn't see Stalberg and Hayes as fits. When they slump will you be back in here?

It is kind of funny to see you put down the Leafs drafting and at the same time glorifying two of their draft picks but I don't think that recognizing irony is a strong suit for you.
Nope.

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01-19-2012, 01:05 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by StarBurns View Post
These trades were an example of Burke still trying to expedite the rebuild instead of just waiting for the team's young assets to develop. Chicago had identified the first forward they could do without and Burke bit on the bait. Versteeg acted like an immature b-star-star-star-star-star while he was here and I think the turning point with Burke for me was the moment he moved Versteeg for draft picks ushering in patience over trying to force out a winning team.

I guess the other perspective with Versteeg having offensive success in Florida is that Burke once again reacted rashly like he did getting Stalberg out of town after his loud-mouthed dressing room personality had rubbed the new captain the wrong way. I choose not to see things that way but perhaps that's because I like Stalberg and didn't like Versteeg.
Actually that was Byfuglien ,, Though the package Thrashers offered up was too good to pass up with the Morin + Picks and them taking Sopel's salary off Hawks hand

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01-19-2012, 01:15 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
When things go badly, they really go badly. Three game losing streak, the Leafs are accused of being too soft and being too small up front, all the while, big bodied, speedy Viktor Stalberg (traded for a midget in Versteeg) and big bodied Jimmy Hayes (traded for a pick we used to get a smaller Brad Ross) are both lighting it up. Damn.
Smaller Brad Ross will play bigger than big bodied Jimmy Hayes ever will. This thread has become a pretty large pissing match. I'm happy with what we received from the trades honestly. Sure Stalberg and Hayes are good now, but you can't judge any of these trades really until another few years.

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