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Leafs to honour Sundin - Feb 11 vs Habs

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Old
01-19-2012, 12:53 PM
  #76
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I'm not sure if you were at the leafs game vs the pens, when sundin got that 5 min ovation from 20 000 people.. Well I was there and that's "MANY FANS"

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01-19-2012, 12:54 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
I can assure you that there are more than 20,000 fans who feel that his legacy has been tarnished.
thats probably about 1 in every 2500 leaf fans...not much to base an argument on

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01-19-2012, 12:55 PM
  #78
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Show me facts on MANY leafs fans.. No proof well its not a fact
I assume you are some kid but with 13,000 posts I don't know.

First, there are already quite a few people in this thread who agree with me. Based on percentages it's pretty significant but a very small sample size. Second, I believe that there was a poll on HF a while back that confirms it for the more significant sample size. I guess the only way to satisfy you is if a professional polling company or newspaper did a poll but if you just think you'll understand.

Sundin should have done one of 2 things.

1) Retired after his last season with the Leafs.

2) Pulled a Ray Bourque and he would have been a legend. Instead his legacy will now always be tarnished no matter what he does.

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01-19-2012, 12:57 PM
  #79
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It's in the Title that I can see.

I'll be at both, looking forward to it.
wow... sarcasm. you should look it up sometime.

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01-19-2012, 01:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
You should look up hypocrisy as in your own post you display the apples and oranges of the two situations.

Now had he signed for Vancouver then accepted a trade at the deadline, I would agree with you but you can not label something as hypocrisy when the details and circumstances of two situations are completely different.
no, it's you that should look it up as obviously you can't grasp the concept. how is what i said hypocritical? i'd seriously love to hear your explanation.

saying you don't want to join a team mid season as a rental because you feel it's a jounrey that begins in training camp, only to do the exact opposite is hypocritical. you can sit there and try to paint different pictures of both situations but at the end of the day if he tryuly meant what he said he would have signed with a team right at the beginning of the season. i'm not blinded by the rose tinted glasses. the man is a hypocrite. how could you call what he did anything else?

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01-19-2012, 01:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
I assume you are some kid but with 13,000 posts I don't know.

First, there are already quite a few people in this thread who agree with me. Based on percentages it's pretty significant but a very small sample size. Second, I believe that there was a poll on HF a while back that confirms it for the more significant sample size. I guess the only way to satisfy you is if a professional polling company or newspaper did a poll but if you just think you'll understand.

Sundin should have done one of 2 things.

1) Retired after his last season with the Leafs.

2) Pulled a Ray Bourque and he would have been a legend. Instead his legacy will now always be tarnished no matter what he does.
Yea well most of us real fans are used to haters in this market, it doesn't change anything about his legacy just like the Gretzky haters do nothing to change his.

I dunno what the rest was trying to prove but there is nothing on this board that could happen to somehow prove your point. If he was booed or somebody through a waffle at him at the ACC, I might be inclined to see your point.

As of right now, you guys get lumped in with the fans who keep hoping we'll lose. Fake, plastic fans

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01-19-2012, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post

As of right now, you guys get lumped in with the fans who keep hoping we'll lose. Fake, plastic fans
so not agreeing with what sundin did makes you a "fake plastic fan"?

this place is hillarious. what a bunch of cry babies.

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01-19-2012, 01:12 PM
  #83
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Quote:
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so not agreeing with what sundin did makes you a "fake plastic fan"?

this place is hillarious. what a bunch of cry babies.
The irony

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01-19-2012, 01:13 PM
  #84
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how do you know that he wanted to come back? can you back that up?

what actually happened is he didn't know if he wanted to play, and dicided mid season that he did want to play. he said he didn't want to be a rental and turned around and did the exact opposite. had he signed with another team right from the biginning of the season i would have been able to respect that. it's the hypocrisy that bothers me.

I think you don't understand what a rental player is and hence have a personal beef...Mats said he didn't want to be a rental...you said that...then you rant about him signing with the 'Nuks...a rental is a player "traded" at the deadline to help a team advance in the postseason with the distinct possibility of being traded or dropped in the offseason...Mats wasn't traded...maybe this will ease your pain...but I suspect you hate simply to hate...the world is full of small folk like you...

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01-19-2012, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Saul Goodman View Post
no, it's you that should look it up as obviously you can't grasp the concept. how is what i said hypocritical? i'd seriously love to hear your explanation.

saying you don't want to join a team mid season as a rental because you feel it's a jounrey that begins in training camp, only to do the exact opposite is hypocritical. you can sit there and try to paint different pictures of both situations but at the end of the day if he tryuly meant what he said he would have signed with a team right at the beginning of the season. i'm not blinded by the rose tinted glasses. the man is a hypocrite. how could you call what he did anything else?
I did not call you hypocritical but was explaining how Sundin is not hypcocritical.

I will simplify my point for you.

Being a trade deadline rent-a-player and not being sure about retirement at the very end of his career are two very different situations.

Do you really run your life on such generalistic ideals? Or do you not run your life on each specific circumstance, evaluating the factors involved?

The use of the word hypocrisy is only appropriate when 2 situations, in detail, match each other.

If I said as a wealthy person, "I wont steal" then went broke and stole a bread to feed my family, would that make me a hypocrite? No, it is a subtle difference and when somebody makes a statement to a question, which is what Sundin did, the context is implied within the question. Maybe communication skills are a weak point for you but it is very easy to make a point when you take statements out of context.

If him passing on one last cup run and retiring a Leaf is what you wanted then fine, all the power to you but accept that you are being selfish and self-centred, like somehow he should do what you want him to do. Athletes are not your slaves and Sundin did not want to be a trade deadline player. His views on being a trade deadline player are well documented.

Being a trade deadline player and taking a long time to decide if you are going to retire or not are nowhere near the same situation

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01-19-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Saul Goodman View Post
so not agreeing with what sundin did makes you a "fake plastic fan"?

this place is hillarious. what a bunch of cry babies.
No, a fake, plastic fan in this situation are people who hate for the sake of hating.

It would be easier to debate this with people who have real facts and not statements used in the wrong context. You do not get to decide the context of said statement and by changing the context to suit your feelings says a lot

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01-19-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
I can assure you that there are more than 20,000 fans who feel that his legacy has been tarnished.
I think it's a very small percentage of fans, you feel it's a larger percentage? 10%? more?

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01-19-2012, 01:26 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
He was the main reason we were as good as we were.
We're not the Sens or the Canucks, I don't "celebrate" Eastern Conference appearances and neither should you.

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We have more real core pieces now then we ever did in Mats prime (outside of a goalie). With the team we iced, every year was bound to get worse as aged players declined.
You're telling me the Muskoka 5 weren't core pieces? If a few of them waived, it is more than likely we end up with better draft positions starting a rebuild, as well as what we'd be getting back. Those guys would've been really valuable if they had waived.

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As an individual, Mats contributed more to his team than any Leaf in history. Considering that, I do not know what more one could ask of him. At some point, somebody else has got to step up.
I beg to differ that every single person that has worn the Toronto Maple Leafs uniform and won a cup contributed WAAAAAY more than Mats ever did. Every single one of them.

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For example, it is true Pittsburgh has the best player in our generation in Crosby but it was Malkin that won the Conn Smythe and Fleury made some huge game saving stops. Dastyuk/Zetterberg, Sakic/Forsberg, Yzerman/Shanahan/Hull/Federov etc...
Crosby barely plays with Malkin and he's far from the best player in our generation now. The other guys are from power house Stanley cup teams with tons of stars you realize?

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Not to mention the contribution all of those teams got from their 3rd and 4th line guys (Talbot, Draper, Maltby etc..)
And we didn't? We had tons of pluggers that did more than enough in the playoffs.

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Mats Sundin is tied for the most OT winners, all-time, in NHL history. Top 25, all-time, in NHL history in goals and points. He leads the Leafs, all-time, in goals, points and assists by a forward.
Only thing he's got is his personal accomplishments, I give him that.

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He was the second recipient of the Mark Messier Leadership award after Chris Chelios.
Cool... where's his cup though?

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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
While he did not win a cup, it is obvious that he has done more than any other Leaf since initial expansion (when the cup actually became hard to win) in that regard. He is a Leaf legend, period.
Maybe that's why we haven't won in so long, fans are too content with individual accomplishments rather than team accomplishments. A big hypocrite.

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I understand that you have a personal problem with a guy you do not know personally but that does not mean you are somehow correct in bashing his tenure here before the controversial issue that turned you sour.
I understand that you love the guy off that you do not know personally but that does not mean you are somehow correct in praising his tenure here.

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Originally Posted by TML g u n n e R s View Post
He was the captian of the Swedish national team and look what happend.. He just needed more talent beside him not some scrubs
I didn't realize we were the swedish national team... lol

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Originally Posted by kfernandes29 View Post
You're totally right, even Wayne Gretzky won stanley cups on his own.

I don't know how Mats wasn't able to accomplish that considering he played all 6 positions on the ice +60 minutes of every game.

Sundin single-handedly carried this team on his back the whole time he was here. If you can't admit to that then you are seriously just hating. If it wasn't for Sundin, we'd possibly be going on over 15 years of no playoff appearances, no conference finals' and no great hockey moments that he personally brought to this city.
Or us fans (me at least) aren't satisfied with almost making it... ya he was a good player for our organization, but banner worthy? Nope. If it wasn't for Sundin, we'd *probably* be a way better team than we are now if he waived. The rebuild would have started, the Muskoka 5 may have followed their captain and also waived. We would've got tons of young players and trading chips. Things would be a lot different. hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
It's hard to keep track of who led them to the Cup. Was it Clark, Sittler, Gilmour or Sundin?
I know it wasn't Vaive, he sucked.
I know none of those guys said the weren't a rental, and then signed with a team a bit into the season to well... become a rental

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Originally Posted by kfernandes29 View Post
lol No kidding!

Here's a good question.

Having accomplished less, why do Clark, Sittler, Gilmour, or even Vaive deserve more praise in this city than Mats Sundin?
Because they were tough as nails. Sundin was a puff. Generally the guys who fight, hit, are the ones who get most recognized. Domi had a press conference when he retired you realize, and Colton Orr had one when he was sent down. You don't notice that?

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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
He's not Canadian?

When things got tough Mats stayed loyal to his Team and Teammates instead of taking the easy way out. That makes him a Villain to the few who don't understand loyalty.
"I don't want to be a rental player"
"Mats Sundin" <- that's his signature where he signed on the dotted line for the Vancouver Canucks to become a rental player

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Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
Anyone who knocks Sundin should be dragged out onto the street and shot. He never wanted to leave but was forced out by the club. How can you possibly hate a player for not letting himself be traded for the good of the club? Hes a player not a GM, thats not his job. he should of played his last game as a leaf.
How is not leaving, "good for the club" ??? Good for the club would be listening to the GM who actually knows what's good for the club

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And you wonder why some players would never want to play in Toronto when they get treated like this, after pouring their heart and soul into the club for over a decade..
As long as they're not hypocrites or soft they should be fine.

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Originally Posted by Saul Goodman View Post
probably because they didn't go on a big speech about how they wouldn't want to go to another team as a rental and the road to the cup starts in training camp, only to turn around and do the complete opposite and sign with vancouver half way through the next season.

the man is a hypocrite and doesn't give a crap about the city of toronto. it's completely hillarious watching a bunch of grown men get their panties in a bunch when someone says something bad about their precious mats.
Yup! hahaha

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He wanted to come back to Toronto, the club didn't want him back..
After he stuck it to them... yup lol

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Old
01-19-2012, 01:31 PM
  #89
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...bunch of nonsense

I expect if you understood what the term "rental player" means you'd have a different outlook.

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01-19-2012, 01:41 PM
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I think it's a very small percentage of fans, you feel it's a larger percentage? 10%? more?
I think that 100% of Leaf fans feel that Sundin tarnished his legacy somewhat by how he handled his last couple of years. Now we have to define "somewhat".

Let's face it, he didn't handle things very well and for Leaf fans it was at the minimum a bit embarrassing and it should have been a bit embarrassing for Sundin too. I originally used the word tarnished, not destroyed. I don't think anyone can argue that his legacy isn't at least a little bit tranished. Some think it was tarnished a lot more than others. Just imagine the difference if he had retired or pulled a Ray Bourque.

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01-19-2012, 01:45 PM
  #91
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Best Leaf Ever. Period.

I have tickets for Feb 11th, suck it.

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01-19-2012, 01:46 PM
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Burke's just saying that but what's really going to happen is Sundin will lace up his skates and return to center our top line.

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01-19-2012, 01:49 PM
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yea going to the game to!! cant wait!! FEB 11!

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01-19-2012, 01:50 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
I think that 100% of Leaf fans feel that Sundin tarnished his legacy somewhat by how he handled his last couple of years. Now we have to define "somewhat".

Let's face it, he didn't handle things very well and for Leaf fans it was at the minimum a bit embarrassing and it should have been a bit embarrassing for Sundin too. I originally used the word tarnished, not destroyed. I don't think anyone can argue that his legacy isn't at least a little bit tranished. Some think it was tarnished a lot more than others. Just imagine the difference if he had retired or pulled a Ray Bourque.


you should maybe stop thinking????

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01-19-2012, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Saul Goodman View Post
how do you know that he wanted to come back? can you back that up?

what actually happened is he didn't know if he wanted to play, and dicided mid season that he did want to play. he said he didn't want to be a rental and turned around and did the exact opposite. had he signed with another team right from the biginning of the season i would have been able to respect that. it's the hypocrisy that bothers me.
Saul speaks the truth, I too would've had no problem if he had signed at the beginning of the season.

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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
You should look up hypocrisy as in your own post you display the apples and oranges of the two situations.

Now had he signed for Vancouver then accepted a trade at the deadline, I would agree with you but you can not label something as hypocrisy when the details and circumstances of two situations are completely different.
No they're both the same. They're both joining a team half way through a season (being rented) to help win the cup. He said he wanted to be with the team from training camp, and then went against his word. A man only has 3 things, his word and his balls.

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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
I assume you are some kid but with 13,000 posts I don't know.

First, there are already quite a few people in this thread who agree with me. Based on percentages it's pretty significant but a very small sample size. Second, I believe that there was a poll on HF a while back that confirms it for the more significant sample size. I guess the only way to satisfy you is if a professional polling company or newspaper did a poll but if you just think you'll understand.

Sundin should have done one of 2 things.

1) Retired after his last season with the Leafs.

2) Pulled a Ray Bourque and he would have been a legend. Instead his legacy will now always be tarnished no matter what he does.
Yup, there's a reason Bourque isn't crucified like Sundin is here. He actually did what was right for his team.

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Originally Posted by Saul Goodman View Post
no, it's you that should look it up as obviously you can't grasp the concept. how is what i said hypocritical? i'd seriously love to hear your explanation.

saying you don't want to join a team mid season as a rental because you feel it's a jounrey that begins in training camp, only to do the exact opposite is hypocritical. you can sit there and try to paint different pictures of both situations but at the end of the day if he tryuly meant what he said he would have signed with a team right at the beginning of the season. i'm not blinded by the rose tinted glasses. the man is a hypocrite. how could you call what he did anything else?


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Yea well most of us real fans are used to haters in this market, it doesn't change anything about his legacy just like the Gretzky haters do nothing to change his.

I dunno what the rest was trying to prove but there is nothing on this board that could happen to somehow prove your point. If he was booed or somebody through a waffle at him at the ACC, I might be inclined to see your point.

As of right now, you guys get lumped in with the fans who keep hoping we'll lose. Fake, plastic fans
H.A.T.E.R.S. = Having Anger Toward Everyone Reaching Success XD XD right?!?!

Lmao, if anything you guys should be lumped in with the fans hoping we lose... you're the ones cheering mediocrity here, not us.

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Originally Posted by TML g u n n e R s View Post
The irony
How is he whining?

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Originally Posted by mojojganjaman View Post
I think you don't understand what a rental player is and hence have a personal beef...Mats said he didn't want to be a rental...you said that...then you rant about him signing with the 'Nuks...a rental is a player "traded" at the deadline to help a team advance in the postseason with the distinct possibility of being traded or dropped in the offseason...Mats wasn't traded...maybe this will ease your pain...but I suspect you hate simply to hate...the world is full of small folk like you...
Mats said he wanted to be with the team from training camp. So technically we're going by Mats' definition of a rental player, not yours.

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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
If I said as a wealthy person, "I wont steal" then went broke and stole a bread to feed my family, would that make me a hypocrite? No, it is a subtle difference and when somebody makes a statement to a question, which is what Sundin did, the context is implied within the question. Maybe communication skills are a weak point for you but it is very easy to make a point when you take statements out of context.

If him passing on one last cup run and retiring a Leaf is what you wanted then fine, all the power to you but accept that you are being selfish and self-centred, like somehow he should do what you want him to do. Athletes are not your slaves and Sundin did not want to be a trade deadline player. His views on being a trade deadline player are well documented.
You're comparing stealing food for survival with what Sundin did And you're right, athletes aren't our slaves, I can still call the dude a hypocrite for what he said, just like anyone else in this world.

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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
No, a fake, plastic fan in this situation are people who hate for the sake of hating.

It would be easier to debate this with people who have real facts and not statements used in the wrong context. You do not get to decide the context of said statement and by changing the context to suit your feelings says a lot
We're not hating for the sake of hating. Someone who WAS one of my favourite players went back on his word. That's shifty. Like I said earlier, a man has three things, his balls and his word. Sundin doesn't have his (word).

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01-19-2012, 01:51 PM
  #96
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Burke's just saying that but what's really going to happen is Sundin will lace up his skates and return to center our top line.
i never thought of that once..actually i think its not too far fetched...the clown from ottawa is still playing...that would be something..well even if he played for one shift

edit: i have tickets too

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01-19-2012, 01:53 PM
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I expect if you understood what the term "rental player" means you'd have a different outlook.
lol, do you think being condescending helps your argument whatsoever? I think you do...

I'm going by Sundin's definition of a rental player is actually. Taking part in training camp

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01-19-2012, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
I think that 100% of Leaf fans feel that Sundin tarnished his legacy somewhat by how he handled his last couple of years. Now we have to define "somewhat".

Let's face it, he didn't handle things very well and for Leaf fans it was at the minimum a bit embarrassing and it should have been a bit embarrassing for Sundin too. I originally used the word tarnished, not destroyed. I don't think anyone can argue that his legacy isn't at least a little bit tranished. Some think it was tarnished a lot more than others. Just imagine the difference if he had retired or pulled a Ray Bourque.
Not tarnished for me in the least but I see Fletcher as the villian in all this. He's the one who didn't handle things very well, in fact he really couldn't have handled things much worse.

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01-19-2012, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
lol, do you think being condescending helps your argument whatsoever? I think you do...

I'm going by Sundin's definition of a rental player is actually. Taking part in training camp
There is no argument just a few with a poor understanding of the situation.

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01-19-2012, 02:08 PM
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Vexxed14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
lol, do you think being condescending helps your argument whatsoever? I think you do...

I'm going by Sundin's definition of a rental player is actually. Taking part in training camp
I will paraphrase the very next Sundin quote from the same interview as the "hypocritical" quote.

"If I were 27 or 28 or younger I would probably go somewhere else right away if I were asked. So that would have been a different situation. I'm 37 years old and I play it year by year. Right now, I am not sure if I am even going to play next season so just based on the personal situation I am in, that is a big reason for my decision as well."

So, how about we let Sundin frame the context of his decision making



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