There is no argument just a few with a poor understanding of the situation.
How am I misunderstanding this when I'm using Sundin's own definition?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexxed14
I will paraphrase the very next Sundin quote from the same interview as the "hypocritical" quote.
"If I were 27 or 28 or younger I would probably go somewhere else right away if I were asked. So that would have been a different situation. I'm 37 years old and I play it year by year. Right now, I am not sure if I am even going to play next season so just based on the personal situation I am in, that is a big reason for my decision as well."
So, how about we let Sundin frame the context of his decision making
Okay... but he still went back on his word, which is what I'm getting at here. He didn't have to waive. If he didn't waive and signed during the summer and went through training camp etc. like I said, I'd have no problem. The fact is though he didn't waive due to not wanting to be a rental (because he didn't want to go to a team without going to training camp), then did exactly that next season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cv14
Do you people realize if Sundin waived his no trade clause his legacy would have been IN MONTREAL???
There was a 2nd plus + Grabo deal in place.
If I had to choose, I would rather Sundin never put on a jersey our biggest rival.
Pick your poison. Mats Sundin was a soldier for us for over 10 years and literally bled for us. You haters got it all wrong.
There was a few teams he could've gone to, it may not have been that deal. And Gilmour did, people still like him no?
probably because they didn't go on a big speech about how they wouldn't want to go to another team as a rental and the road to the cup starts in training camp, only to turn around and do the complete opposite and sign with vancouver half way through the next season.
the man is a hypocrite and doesn't give a crap about the city of toronto. it's completely hillarious watching a bunch of grown men get their panties in a bunch when someone says something bad about their precious mats.
How am I misunderstanding this when I'm using Sundin's own definition?
Okay... but he still went back on his word, which is what I'm getting at here. He didn't have to waive. If he didn't waive and signed during the summer and went through training camp etc. like I said, I'd have no problem. The fact is though he didn't waive due to not wanting to be a rental (because he didn't want to go to a team without going to training camp), then did exactly that next season.
There was a few teams he could've gone to, it may not have been that deal. And Gilmour did, people still like him no?
w/e dude, again if you are going to take his statement out of context, it would seem like he went back on his word.
The one thing he DID say a lot of was "I dunno what I'm going to do". Him saying that he would have moved at 27 or 28 shows that your view of his quote is misplaced.
He never made a overarching statement about training camp and was much more focused on trying to convey his uncertainty about playing the following season and how his body would react.
By virtue of your argument, you insist that Sundin did not go due to the "rent-a-player" issue. That conclusion would make sense without listening to the rest of his words. There were many issues involved with his decision and he made that very clear.
If he had said that was his only reason, I would 100% agree with everything you say.
It's ok to have opinions on the way Sundin left, but it annoys me when people don't even get their facts straight. After his last season with the leafs, he was pretty disappointed and actually had his mind set on retirement (from his own words). Then quite a bit later he decided he wanted a last run. It's called changing your mind, not being a hypocrite. Anyway, I'm glad most fans seem to be able to look past this now and remember the good times. Cheers Mats!
The guy planned to retire, had a change of heart mid season, Toronto didnt want him back as they were looking to develop post Sundin so he went to Vancouver.
ANd people throw him under the bus as a traitor after all he did here. Pathetic fans, don't deserve a Captain like Sundin.
I'll be there to cheer him on as well! Should be a great night! I hope they give out sundin bobble heads like they did for Wendel. I'm going to show up nice and early just in case.
Sundin haters have a case of "what have you done for me lately?" He's set records for the Leaf organization and is a top 25ish player in NHL history. Your foolish to think simply waiving a trade at the end of his career changes his status as one of the best Leafs ever.
Sundin haters have a case of "what have you done for me lately?" He's set records for the Leaf organization and is a top 25ish player in NHL history. Your foolish to think simply waiving a trade at the end of his career changes his status as one of the best Leafs ever.
Absolutely it did. It was selfish.
Look Sundin had every right to do what he did. It was in his contract after all. But let's not put him into the grand light that he loved Toronto. The organization was nothing but good to him. When they asked him to help them out by allowing them to move him he declined for his own selfish reasons.
Had he been moved the other players would have followed. I guarantee you any money that Kaberle would have waived as well.
Sundin = Higgins, Grabovski, 2nd
Kaberle = Jeff Carter, 1st (James Van Riemsdyk)
Instead it hurt the team. They lost on a lot of assets and instead made another garbage playoff push with no success ruining our chances at drafting high.
Because they were tough as nails. Sundin was a puff. Generally the guys who fight, hit, are the ones who get most recognized. Domi had a press conference when he retired you realize, and Colton Orr had one when he was sent down. You don't notice that?
Sundin is too soft to have his number honored but great enough to completely trump any and all of the other players with their numbers currently hanging from the rafters.
We should honor Tiger Williams, Tie Domi, Colton Orr and Darcy Tucker before we ever consider doing it for Mats.
Sundin is too soft to have his number honored but great enough to completely trump any and all of the other players with their numbers currently hanging from the rafters.
We should honor Tiger Williams, Tie Domi, Colton Orr and Darcy Tucker before we ever consider doing it for Mats.
As much as I loved Gary Roberts, I don't think he should be honoured here. I personally don't think he didn't serve long enough here to have his number raised....that's just my opinion though.
Yea well most of us real fans are used to haters in this market, it doesn't change anything about his legacy just like the Gretzky haters do nothing to change his.
I dunno what the rest was trying to prove but there is nothing on this board that could happen to somehow prove your point. If he was booed or somebody through a waffle at him at the ACC, I might be inclined to see your point.
As of right now, you guys get lumped in with the fans who keep hoping we'll lose. Fake, plastic fans
I gotta say, that I've been pretty offended by the comments of you and others in this thread and perhaps it should be locked (I'm not asking for infractions here).
I bleed blue and white just like you do (don't know you but you appear passionate) and to deride my commitment to this team after over 20 years is plain bs.
Sundin had a NTC and it is absolutely his prerogative as to whether to waive it or not, conceded. But therein lies the point, he CHOSE not to. In my estimation the point of a no trade clause is pretty well to give a man security that he can live the duration of his contract in the city he signed it. Mats had that when he chose not to do his last goodwill for the team that was so good to him (that's been bothering me too, all these comments that "Mats was so good to us" and "we treated him badly", that's a joke, Mats had an incredible career in TO with millions of adoring fans ... and dollars). We made what ended up a 13-14 year commitment to Mats, that's sounds like pretty good residential security to me and to CHOOSE not to spend a matter of months (basically a vacation) playing for another team trying to win the cup while helping the team that was so good to you rebuild at the very end of that timeline is disingenuous.
Now, the reason he gave for not allowing a trade was a brilliant little piece of PR when he said it. He deflected the complete unreasonableness of what I just illustrated by talking about how the journey to the cup begins in training camp and how he loves the organisation and basically played the victim about being pushed out. I call foul on most of that prima facie, but the ensuing hypocrisy of signing for half a season to do exactly the opposite of what he said (for I might add the highest $/game salary ever) expounds the issue.
He was absolutely entitled to make these decisions contractually and personally respectively, but I don't have to continue to kneel before him when his final actions towards my team were to kick us in the proverbial junk rather than take a 3 month vacation with an elite team we'd pick out for him to try and win the Stanley Cup ... that's obviously the difference between you and me ... oh that and I respect your right to your opinion while you post up and down the thread with personal attacks and other garbage that clearly violates the rules of the forum.
I'll be there to cheer him on as well! Should be a great night! I hope they give out sundin bobble heads like they did for Wendel. I'm going to show up nice and early just in case.
How ironic. Give the same tribute to the man who refused to do his last captainly duty as the one who did and brought in the next generation of the franchise.
It's 2012 and some people are still whining about Sundin's NTC?
Unbelievable.
From the stickied thread on the Leafs' page:
"Notice to Leafs Posters WRT Forum Rules
Posting Rules: Unacceptable Conduct
Quote:
1) Flaming: Do not post any messages that harass, insult (name calling), belittle, threaten or mock other members. Debates are fine, but critique the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks are not permitted. Do not use sweeping generalizations and plural pronouns to cloak personal attacks. For example if a poster(s) states that he thinks 'x' is a good idea, replying that "Anyone who supports 'x' is an idiot" is a personal attack. Do not start threads to call out and embarrass other members; or make posts about ignore lists. Quotes by other members are not to be edited. You may reply to a partial quote, but do not change the quoted content in any way. No one likes to be misrepresented or have words put in their mouth.
The Moderators would like to clarify that included in this are terms like "Haters" and "Blind Sheep" that appears to be the staple rebuttal from various posters on this Forum.
Supporting the team does not preclude having opinions contrary to what the team's management has. Supporting or deriding management decisions does not make you a better fan.
Do not respond or engage these types of posts report them.
Warnings and / or infractions will be achieved for posters who continue posting these remarks."
Just thought I'd point out that the posters that are responding personal attacks here are, for the most part, staying on point and having an actual discussion; while the ones who you apparently agree with are resorting to personal attacks, some of which are verbatim from this announcement.
I hope that that is completely independent from why there haven't been any infractions handed out or at least a locking of this thread.
How ironic. Give the same tribute to the man who refused to do his last captainly duty as the one who did and brought in the next generation of the franchise.
Wendel waived a NTC to go to Quebec? Didn't the protest to get Clark back cost us the 4th overall pick (Luongo) only to see him leave as a UFA 2 years later?
Last edited by EazyB97: 01-19-2012 at 10:25 PM.
Reason: 4th overall, not 5th
"Notice to Leafs Posters WRT Forum Rules
Posting Rules: Unacceptable Conduct
Quote:
1) Flaming: Do not post any messages that harass, insult (name calling), belittle, threaten or mock other members. Debates are fine, but critique the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks are not permitted. Do not use sweeping generalizations and plural pronouns to cloak personal attacks. For example if a poster(s) states that he thinks 'x' is a good idea, replying that "Anyone who supports 'x' is an idiot" is a personal attack. Do not start threads to call out and embarrass other members; or make posts about ignore lists. Quotes by other members are not to be edited. You may reply to a partial quote, but do not change the quoted content in any way. No one likes to be misrepresented or have words put in their mouth.
The Moderators would like to clarify that included in this are terms like "Haters" and "Blind Sheep" that appears to be the staple rebuttal from various posters on this Forum.
Supporting the team does not preclude having opinions contrary to what the team's management has. Supporting or deriding management decisions does not make you a better fan.
Do not respond or engage these types of posts report them.
Warnings and / or infractions will be achieved for posters who continue posting these remarks."
Just thought I'd point out that the posters that are responding personal attacks here are, for the most part, staying on point and having an actual discussion; while the ones who you apparently agree with are resorting to personal attacks, some of which are verbatim from this announcement.
I hope that that is completely independent from why there haven't been any infractions handed out or at least a locking of this thread.
Respectfully,
David
You didn't have to copy and paste the entire thing. A link would've worked fine.
Did you flag any of the posts you found to be breaking the rules? You should've done that before complaining, because mods can't read every single post written on this board. Way too many posts and the flagging system is there for that reason.
Wendel waived a NTC to go to Quebec? Didn't the protest to get Clark back cost us the 5th overall pick (Luongo) only to see him leave as a UFA 2 years later?
Please read my above post as to my feelings about this mythology surrounding no trade clauses when they're at the end of 13-14 year careers in the same location.
I agree with the you about the stupidity of trading the 4th overall pick to bring him back ... there are no words to explain that ridiculous transaction.
Please read my above post as to my feelings about this mythology surrounding no trade clauses when they're at the end of 13-14 year careers in the same location.
I agree with the you about the stupidity of trading the 4th overall pick to bring him back ... there are no words to explain that ridiculous transaction.
Seems like you're missing my point. Sundin's situation was much different than Clarks. I think we all know you wanted him to waive his NTC, but that was his option when Clark didn't have a choice at all in the situation.
You didn't have to copy and paste the entire thing. A link would've worked fine.
Did you flag any of the posts you found to be breaking the rules? You should've done that before complaining, because mods can't read every single post written on this board. Way too many posts and the flagging system is there for that reason.
Sorry about copying the entire thing ... I'm not very tech-savvy. As to the reporting, you're right I haven't I only just returned to the thread from a day or so ago and was catching up. But, if you look closely at the four posts immediate to your own you can get a sense for where the thread has been going for a while (a case can pretty easily be made that all four of them are personal attacks and three use the the specific words outline in the announcement). One hardly needs to read the whole thread to see it.
I will be more diligent about reporting in the future, I'm just usually not involved in threads that bring out this kind of unnecessary animosity.
Sorry about copying the entire thing ... I'm not very tech-savvy. As to the reporting, you're right I haven't I only just returned to the thread from a day or so ago and was catching up. But, if you look closely at the four posts immediate to your own you can get a sense for where the thread has been going for a while (a case can pretty easily be made that all four of them are personal attacks and three use the the specific words outline in the announcement). One hardly needs to read the whole thread to see it.
I will be more diligent about reporting in the future, I'm just usually not involved in threads that bring out this kind of unnecessary animosity.
No worries. I removed a couple of posts. but I'm still not going to go back and read the entire thread. You guys report the posts and even if I can't get to it, another mod can come and deal with it. It's the easiest option to get rid of all the flaming and personal attacks that go on here. Thanks Aulie.
Seems like you're missing my point. Sundin's situation was much different than Clarks. I think we all know you wanted him to waive his NTC, but that was his option when Clark didn't have a choice at all in the situation.
That's fair. I guess in my mind (as someone who's been a general manager in other businesses for over 10 years), if I have an employee that's worked for me for a decade I would always touch base with them before I transferred them to another city. Taking care of loyal employees is just good business. I have no authority for it, but I'd imagine the Leafs consulted with Clark before simply dealing him to the Nordiques. Yes the situation has differences, but it also has similarities. Point well taken though.
He was a class act for the vast majority of his career and made a mistake at the end by not clearly thinking about his options and screwed the Leafs over.
Does the good he did outweight the bad? IMO definitely.
