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What is a re-tool to you anyway? [In defense of the Goat]

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01-13-2012, 10:07 PM
  #1
WhiskeySeven
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What is a re-tool to you anyway? [In defense of the Goat]

Summary: Gauthier is a good GM, he's re-tooling this team. Stop hating on every move. He's retooling the team in the image of a post-Jacques Martin era and he's doing it without sacrificing any prospects. His moves so far have been logical and fair.

It's a long post but I'm really sick of people hating on every move. I caught myself yelling at Mitch Gallo and Tony Marinara when I was driving today - they're false prophets who intentionally don't look at things objectively.

At the beginning of the season, this team was built in the image of what Jacques Martin wanted. JM, being a veteran coach and former GM was given a lot of chances to redeem the season and was promptly and unceremoniously fired. He was due to be fired when Pearn was but was given a second chance only because of his status as a super experienced coach.

The Habs were designed to work for Jacques Martin's vision: Speedy, drew penalties and scored on the PP - but with good 5on5 defensive play, as MathMan & co will correctly point out. Shot blocking and stellar goaltending were also a staple.

But the PP wasn't working, and therefore the team was not. A low scoring rate became abysmal and the team lost all mojo. Jacques was fired and Cunney comes in.

Cunney's vision is, was, NOT THAT OF JACQUES. To re-group takes time and he is doing it, slowly. Notice the forecheck is different, and line-changes. This team is not made in Cunney's vision, so changes have to be made. I'll get to that in a second.

Since last year every single move Goat has made has been wildly criticized. I don't understand why but it does not matter. You can't criticize the guy for living in Vermont or for calling his players with a Mister/Monsieur. If you really object to those minor personal details, you're a fool and your opinion is worthless. Many in the media started a grudge match with him for being secretive, well it's because the media is so intrusive to the Habs to begin with. Media types, almost all of them, fall under two categories: Professionals and Fans. Most of the media are loyal to the sport and their job, they're the professionals. The ones that are strictly loyal to the team are Fan-journalists who aren't really credited much anyway because they're pretty unprofessional.

The entire media world is ragging on Gauthier for making moves the way he does when in fact there are dozens of examples of other "classless" or "confusing" moves done by other teams which don't get blown up. It's because the sharks smell the water and it's in season to hate on Goat. The French-debate that sparked up places so much needless pressure on the coach, the team and management. It's common to have an assistant coach take over, especially one as experienced and highly sought as Randy Cunneyworth. The debate is legitimate and will be addressed at the proper time and everyone knows that, they just want to sell sensationalist headlines. And the fans, the fans on hfboards too, eat it up like delicious poutine.

So leave the debate at the door for another 3 months. What's left then?

In the pre-season he brought over Emelin, Diaz and during training camp, Campoli.

The first two will never get a mention because the media won't want to give him any credit. Campoli was a desperation signing, we all know it. Weber didn't impress much and I think Subban was injured alongside Markov. Campoli is waiver-fodder and a bandaid. To say that he should've prepared for injuries is laughable, we were playing our 11th depth chart d-man at a point, Frederic St-Denis. How much more depth is possible?? At 100% health, which is rare but is what you build for in the off-season, the D looked like: Markov, Gorges, Spacek, Subban, Gill, Weber | Emelin, Diaz. All of them are promised NHL time or are on one-way deals. Take away Markov on LITR and there's still 7 NHL dmen.

Note: the Markov resigning seems unfortunate and I hope it works out. He's a legitimately great player and if he returns to what he left off, we're lucky to have him. I don't think it was wrong to resign him but with the nature of resigning an injured player, it's just risky at all times.

So the season starts and then...
  1. Firing Pearn
  2. Firing Jacques Martin
  3. Trading for Nokia (with an AHLer)
  4. Trading for Kaberle (with Spacek)
  5. Trading for Bourque (with Cammy)
  6. Re-sign Gorges

Pearn was fired because it was time for Jacques to go. The season was still salvageable and Pearn's philosophy (along with Jacques) was not working. You can call it classless or weird or awkward or whatever but it was literally a direct shot at Jacques.

He didn't fire Jacques however because Jacques deserved another chance. This is a man with tons of experience, who stepped down as General Manager to coach this team, who won a lot of a playoff games (4+4+1+3) in two years and who has the team built and tuned to his system. If Jacques was fired in mid-October, it would've left tons of room for WhatIfs? and such.

Jacques got another chance and the team still did not respond. So off he goes, without a shadow of a doubt that boring hockey + losing hockey is a no go in Montreal, and as it should be.

Nokia was traded for because Enqgvist could not step up.

Kaberle was acquired in return for Spacek. Spacek, the injury-prone UFA d-man against Kaberle. Now I'm not going to subjectively grade each of them but Kaberle is the better D-man. Kaberle's contract appears to be a problem, especially considering his current role as a sheltered 3rd pairing guy, but he's been here less than 20 games and he has a lot of experience in the NHL as a 1st paring guy. He's OWED the benefit of the doubt.

Re-signing Gorges, 3.9/6years. What's wrong with that? He's paid Spacek-money and is much better than him defensively. He's a league leader in blocked-shots and a locker-room presence. His contract is not a bargain but it's definitely not overpaid, especially compared to similar players across the league.

So, up to this point, what has Goat done that's been bad?

Trading for Bourque has been analyzed over and over but in short it's because Bourque fits the mold of the team we WANT TO have and Cammy does not. Goat said it himself and people responded as "how can he JUST realize that we need size?".

That's not the case: Cammy was average-at-best in Jacques' system and was paid very handsomely for a short return. When Jacques is gone, so is his "image" on the team. Cammy no longer hold any value because he was not performing at all AND is a small, non-physical, streaky, injury-prone, overpaid sniper. These terms are subjective but be reasonable here, they're true.

So what's wrong then?

The way Goat does business: the fact that he didn't call up every single GM, the fact that cammy was traded mid-game, the fact that he didn't tell Spacek and Cammy the destination immediately, etc. Who cares? Honestly, who cares? Most of these details would be available in other cities if there was such a spotlight. Only in MTL are they reported however. The pundits who claim the Habs are losing credibility or the players who have signed here over the last 2 years - who do you believe?

Gorges has just committed to a SIX YEAR extension. Budaj, Emelin, Diaz and Cole signed this past off-season. This team has tons of respectability where it matters: they're fair to their players and amazingly professional. If you say otherwise you're neglecting the multi-million dollar training facility and medical centre in Brossard built in the Gauthier/Gainey era, the constant praise from players of this team and other teams about how much they've learned and grown in Montreal and the fact that despite the taxes, weather, media attention and uber-defensive system (under JM) they attract players of all kinds and spend to the cap.

If you want to judge Gauthier, do it on his moves and not on speculation. He's a good GM and he's made logical moves at every turn.

edit: I tried to have a good thread, I obviously failed at it if you look at the discourse below and how quickly it degrades.


Last edited by WhiskeySeven: 01-13-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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01-13-2012, 10:10 PM
  #2
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People need someone to hate on. Most teams have a season where they bottom out. I'm looking forward to see what veterans the Habs move out for futures and how the rest of the season plays out.

Once this Summer comes around I think most of our exciting young core will be locked up long term and depending on what becomes of Gomez and Markov this team could have quite a bit of cap space as well.

I don't know why everyone is so eager for Gauthier to get fired, or so certain it's going to happen either.

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01-13-2012, 10:17 PM
  #3
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That Kaberle one is gonna crutch us, the whole is dug way too deep & they keep shoveling. The problem is they actually think they still believe they're a contender.

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01-13-2012, 10:21 PM
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I am happy with the bourque deal. It makes sense on all levels. It gives the Habs a good physical core.

The Spacek for Kaberle is a high risk/high reward.

The problem I had with PG was his passiveness towards the team and the lack of implication. He made good draft choices, and we have an okay team. I am fine with that.

Only problem is that he seems so anti climactic towards his players and the org.

EDIT: I know I am annoying with this but I think that my opinion is expressed well in my blog post.

http://www.hockeybusts.blogspot.com/...eri-trade.html

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01-13-2012, 10:29 PM
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You gotta be kidding!!
Are you on medication??
And I'm truly not making light of you or being a dik- I'm serous

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01-13-2012, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larek View Post
You gotta be kidding!!
Are you on medication??
And I'm truly not making light of you or being a dik- I'm serous
Can you clearly, and succinctly make logical, sound arguments against Gauthier's moves?

Try not to use the words "classless" or "classy" though. I'm here waiting.

btw: I totally srs and not being a dic at all lol i dunno maybe i just cray

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01-13-2012, 10:33 PM
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Go Habs GO

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01-13-2012, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Can you clearly, and succinctly make logical, sound arguments against Gauthier's moves?

Try not to use the words "classless" or "classy" though. I'm here waiting.

btw: I totally srs and not being a dic at all lol i dunno maybe i just cray
It's fascinating W7, I constantly ask people to explain why he's done such a poor job and the thing people seem to clutch onto hardest is the signing of Markov...which hasn't turned out but the alternatives weren't plentiful either.

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01-13-2012, 10:35 PM
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Two names for you why he did a sucky job, Markov signing, Conneyworth hiring and the mess he created....

Also the stinky defense he brought in... and i could go on and on...

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01-13-2012, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Two names for you why he did a sucky job, Markov signing, Conneyworth hiring and the mess he created....

Also the stinky defense he brought in... and i could go on and on...
You would rather have the Wiz for 6 more years ? Look how that has turned out for Columbus.

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01-13-2012, 10:37 PM
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Eric Engles says

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eric-...Trade/82/41300


Quote:
In all my years of watching, loving and eventually analyzing hockey, I've never seen a player pulled off the bench and traded.

And in all my years, I've never seen a general manager that's as two-faced as Pierre Gauthier's proven to be over his Montreal tenure. I touched on that with Terry DiMonte, on CHOM this morning.

Quote:
his management of the information thereafter; his willful deceit regarding Markov's "progress" is all but a complete embarrassment for the organization.

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01-13-2012, 10:38 PM
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The way he makes trade... not shopping players around. We could have had much more for Halak and for Cammaleri... This guys improvise like no other GM

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01-13-2012, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
Engels is an idiot, he's been on his anti Gauthier push for a long while now.

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01-13-2012, 10:39 PM
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Getting Kaberle was a terrible move, killing our cap room

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01-13-2012, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Two names for you why he did a sucky job, Markov signing, Conneyworth hiring and the mess he created....

Also the stinky defense he brought in... and i could go on and on...
Cunneyworth is an interim PROMOTION mid-season because Jacques Martin was driving this team into the ground and boring the hell out of the fans. How is that at all a bad move, teams promote their assistants on an interim basis all the time.

How can you say the defense sucks when at the same time you say the Markov re-signing was a bad move? Damned if you do, damned if you don't, isn't it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
The way he makes trade... not shopping players around. We could have had much more for Halak and for Cammaleri... This guys improvise like no other GM
You don't know that and you can't prove that. Making assumptions and basing ideas off of them is stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Getting Kaberle was a terrible move, killing our cap room
We just got that cap room back with this trade. Cap room doesn't win you games; a working PP does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Not burying Gomez in the minors... and i could go on and on
No one would've done so, Gomez was supposed to rebound this year and has only played 13 games. He's due to be buried this coming off-season though, no doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Markov signing was terrible.... can you tell me how many game he played this year?? This was such a dumb move by a dumb man
So you would've preferred for Markov to be released? Who would've replaced him in the medium-to-long term? Wiz?

aaaaaand you just wrote that you'd rather "blow it up". Blow it up is the phrase stupid people use when they don't know hockey. Columbus, Atlanta, New York Islanders, Florida and Phoenix have been spinning their wheels for a decade "blowing it up". It doesn't work that way. Core pieces are core pieces no matter how you acquire them. In the last decade Boston never blew it up, nor did Philly, the Rangers, Vancouver or Detroit. 5 years of losing is ridiculous to even consider. You don't know anything about the NHL, get out of this thread.


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01-13-2012, 10:40 PM
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Not burying Gomez in the minors... and i could go on and on

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01-13-2012, 10:41 PM
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Why does his opinion matter more than anyone else's on HF? He's basically a poster who got his own blog and somehow is now above most in knowledge?

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01-13-2012, 10:41 PM
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WhiskeySeven I agree with you. Gauthier is a much smarter man than most here realize, and I admire the balls he's showing by doing what's right and reloading.

And I prefer to call it a 1 year reload, since I don't think much retooling is necessary. I hope the plan is to tank this year, draft Galchenyuk since I think a top 4 pick is very realistic, and through the trade and free agency markets remake the team and be back into the playoffs by next year. I don't think it'll require all that much. Trading guys like Gill, Kaberle, Campoli, Moen, and Kostitsyn will help in all aspects of the reload. We have keepers up front (especially if we can add Galchenyuk), and some keepers on D and a keeper in net. The future is bright.

Basically the guys I'll be looking to retool around are as follows:

FORWARDS

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Galchenyuk
Leblanc-Eller-Gallagher
Bourque-Desharnais-Cole
White

Emelin-Subban
Tinordi-Gorges
Beaulieu

Price

I think there is a real nice mixture of young talent and veteran presents to make this as and as painless as possible. Tank this year and be back competing next year. I'm not sold on Cunny though.

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01-13-2012, 10:42 PM
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Markov signing was terrible.... can you tell me how many game he played this year?? This was such a dumb move by a dumb man

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01-13-2012, 10:43 PM
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engels = a blogger who caught a break = nothing more than meh

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01-13-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
WhiskeySeven I agree with you. Gauthier is a much smarter man than most here realize, and I admire the balls he's showing by doing what's right and reloading.

And I prefer to call it a 1 year reload, since I don't think much retooling is necessary. I hope the plan is to tank this year, draft Galchenyuk since I think a top 4 pick is very realistic, and through the trade and free agency markets remake the team and be back into the playoffs by next year. I don't think it'll require all that much. We have keepers up front (especially if we can add Galchenyuk), and some keepers on D and a keeper in net. The future is bright.

Basically the guys I'll be looking to retool around are as follows:

FORWARDS

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Galchenyuk
Leblanc-Eller-Gallagher
Bourque-Desharnais-Cole
White

Emelin-Subban
Tinordi-Gorges
Beaulieu

Price

I think there is a real nice mixture of young talent and veteran presents to make this as and as painless as possible. Tank this year and be back competing next year. I'm not sold on Cunny though.
Patchwork enthousiast there, been doing this for 17 years and it has failed us misirably. Blow this think up and rebuit by tanking 4 or 5 years

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01-13-2012, 10:45 PM
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His moves have been decent (except for the Kaberle trade which is just brutal), but the way he went about making these trades just don't make sense to me. He has targeted players he wanted twice now with eller and Bourque. So far, I'm happy for the return we got from halak, and I hope I'm happy with the return for cammy, but how could you not shop a guy like him to the league?? He is a legitimate 1st line sniper and has the reputation of being a big game player! Whether or not Gauthier could have gotten more for him is purely speculation, but he should have tried and see what else he could get.

He constantly lies to the media and fans too... Just last night he said that cammalleri's words had nothing to do with the trade, when in fact Feaster said in his presser that he thought the trade was dead until after Bourque's suspension was over, until Gauthier called him wednesday night after Cammalleri's fiasco with the media.

He has been an active GM, and his trades seem logical, but when you are active and making moves (Whether they seem desperate or not), but the team is getting worse... that's when you know you should be canned.

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01-13-2012, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
WhiskeySeven I agree with you. Gauthier is a much smarter man than most here realize, and I admire the balls he's showing by doing what's right and reloading.

And I prefer to call it a 1 year reload, since I don't think much retooling is necessary. I hope the plan is to tank this year, draft Galchenyuk since I think a top 4 pick is very realistic, and through the trade and free agency markets remake the team and be back into the playoffs by next year. I don't think it'll require all that much. Trading guys like Gill, Kaberle, Campoli, Moen, and Kostitsyn will help in all aspects of the reload. We have keepers up front (especially if we can add Galchenyuk), and some keepers on D and a keeper in net. The future is bright.

Basically the guys I'll be looking to retool around are as follows:

FORWARDS

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Galchenyuk
Leblanc-Eller-Gallagher
Bourque-Desharnais-Cole
White

Emelin-Subban
Tinordi-Gorges
Beaulieu

Price

I think there is a real nice mixture of young talent and veteran presents to make this as and as painless as possible. Tank this year and be back competing next year. I'm not sold on Cunny though.
That lineup looks good. I would add a physical top 6 Winger but other than that the Habs will be a good team soon.

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01-13-2012, 10:47 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Patchwork enthousiast there, been doing this for 17 years and it has failed us misirably. Blow this think up and rebuit by tanking 4 or 5 years
Cause that worked so well for Winnipeg and the Islanders !

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01-13-2012, 10:48 PM
  #25
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Gauthier failed everywhere he went and its not exactly a success here being 24th in the league.

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