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Patrik Elias

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01-18-2012, 10:51 AM
  #1
unknown33
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Patrik Elias

His thread in the general section got me thinking:

Given how he is rated by the media, his unremarkable personality and lack of shiny career stats benchmarks makes his HoF induction highly unlikely imo, but is his overall resume that much worse than that of some recent inductees?

I haven't really checked his scoring finishes, but Elias is playoff topscorer of the last decade.

What is your opinion on him? How would you rate him historically?

For me he seems to be a typical 'Hall of Very Good' player at first sight.

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01-18-2012, 10:59 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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IMO, he's the perfect candidate for a veteran's committee to induct into the HHOF. Similar to Herbie Lewis in terms of a two-way winger who contributed to multiple Cups, but lacked "star power." But Elias is probably more important to his team.

He led one of the best teams of the era in scoring 8 times, I believe, while playing above average defense. And yes, then you get to his playoff resume.

Joe Nieuwendyk's highest finish in points was 11th. Elias finished 3rd and 6th.

Adjusted points (which I know the HHOF doesn't care about, they still think every 80s forward was better than every dead puck era forward)
Nieuwendyk: 1124 in 1257 games
Elias: 973 in 1005 games

Nieuwendyk won the Smythe in 1999, but I would argue that Elias was the better overall playoff performer.

Don't even get me started on Ciccarelli.

Elias currently has 860 points in 1005 games. He is 35 years old. It's not inconceivable that he would hit 1000 points if he plays until he is 40. IMO, he hits 1000 points playing the way he did, he has a very good shot at the HHOF even without a Veteran's Committee. It might take a few years, but I'm pretty sure Doc Emrick (who did play by play for NJ for years) is still on the HHOF Committee, so Elias would potentially have a strong advocate.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-18-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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01-18-2012, 11:09 AM
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vadim sharifijanov
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could we make an argument that if he keeps going for a while, he could be the mark recchi of the DPE? or maybe, if we weight recchi's longevity against elias' playoff resume, that elias is already the mark recchi of the DPE? either way, very under the radar. definite low-rung HHOF to me (both guys).

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01-18-2012, 11:12 AM
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Elias is like poor man's Datsyuk. I do not think he is HoF-caliber player. But then again, neither is Neely, Nieuwendyk and many others IMHO.

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01-18-2012, 11:13 AM
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IMO, he's the perfect candidate for a veteran's committee to induct into the HHOF. Similar to Herbie Lewis in terms of a two-way winger who contributed to multiple Cups, but lacked "star power." But Elias is probably more important to his team.

He led one of the best teams of the era in scoring 8 times, I believe, while playing above average defense. And yes, then you get to his playoff resume.

Joe Nieuwendyk's highest finish in points was 11th. Elias finished 3rd and 6th.

Adjusted points (which I know the HHOF doesn't care about, they still think every 80s forward was better than every dead puck era forward)
Nieuwendyk: 1124 in 1257 games
Elias: 973 in 1005 games

Nieuwendyk won the Smythe in 1999, but I would argue that Elias was the better overall playoff performer.

Don't even get me started on Ciccarelli.

Elias currently has 860 points in 1005 games. He is 35 years old. It's not inconceivable that he would hit 1000 points if he plays until he is 40. IMO, he hits 1000 points playing the way he did, he has a very good shot at the HHOF even without a Veteran's Committee. It might take a few years, but I'm pretty sure Doc Emrick (who did play by play for NJ for years) is still on the HHOF Committee, so Elias would potentially have a strong advocate.
Elias problem imo is that he's quite anonymous but I cant say that I disagree with your assertions of him.

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01-18-2012, 11:25 AM
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Elias has a similar case to Brian Propp. Best forward on a very good team for a decade. Good playoff scorer. Strong two-way play.

But Elias has passed Propp at this point. He's still producing on his mid-30s. And it helps that his team actually won the Cup.


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01-18-2012, 11:30 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Elias has a similar case to Brian Propp. Best forward one a very good team for a decade. Good playoff scorer. Strong two-way play.

But Elias has passed Propp at this point. He's still producing on his mid-30s. And it helps that his team actually wom the Cup.
I like the Propp comparison. Elias also has a slight advantage in peak regular season scoring with 2 top 10 finishes

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01-18-2012, 11:30 AM
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Was on his way, but never seemed to fully recover after the Hepatitis issue.

Also was much better on LW, the Devils lack of quality centers of late has certainly hurt him.

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01-18-2012, 11:56 AM
  #9
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imo, elias would be nearly a lock for HHOF if he had played for detroit or colorado, etc.


his offensive talent and 2 way game are very good, but i think have been masked by NJD's style of play. not always, as NJD were a high scoring team in '98-'01, but usually they have been a mediocre offensive team.

elias has averaged less than 19:00 in every season until this one, whereas other team's star F's often get over 21:00. NJD also have had far less PP's than any team during elias' career.

he was also unfortunate in missing more than 1/2 of high scoring '06 season (scored 45p in 38 games). had hepatitis, iirc. '06 NJD were 27-11 when elias played, but 19-18-7 without him.

i don't think elias was the only important difference between 1st and 2nd half in '06, though. brodeur was a lot better in 2nd half, iirc, and they also changed coaches.

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01-18-2012, 12:14 PM
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Underrated player who certainly has a better resume (though the 1st team all-star slot and his top10 scoring finishes did come against somewhat weak competition in my opinion) than some guys already in the hall, but the lack of media recognition might harm his chances unless he hits a benchmark like 1000 points. In my opinion he is a clear step above the more recent controversial/bad inductions such as Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk.

How do people think Elias compares to Mark Recchi (who I think is considered a semi lock for the HoF?)? Recchi does have more high end regular seasons than Elias, but I think they peaked at a similar level and that Elias has a better playoff resume.

EDIT: What do you know, apparently when you spend 15 minutes writing a short response other people already cover everything you wanted to bring up. Oh well.

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01-18-2012, 12:43 PM
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A really underrated player. I'd forgotten about his 3rd-place finish....

Intersting how if you asked most people, they'd probably say that Kovalchuk has a better shot, now, at the hall than Elias. Even going by precedent, they are probably right considering Kovalchuk goal-scoring awards. But who would you rather have have on your team?

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01-18-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Also was much better on LW, the Devils lack of quality centers of late has certainly hurt him.
I disagree with this. It was definitely true at one point, where he didn't seem to be clicking at center, but I think this year has shown him to be settled in very well. He's slowed down some, and I think that actually means he's a better center at this point than a winger. I can't envision him switching back at this point, and PAtty has publically stated that he doesn't want to.

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01-18-2012, 01:37 PM
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Elias is like poor man's Datsyuk. I do not think he is HoF-caliber player. But then again, neither is Neely, Nieuwendyk and many others IMHO.
I would say Neely is HoF caliber, hes just didnt have a career. When they inducted Neely I thought that they could might as well induct Konstantinov.

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01-18-2012, 02:01 PM
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The problem with Elias is that he fits into the mold of a player that would open the doors for others. There have been a lot of arguments for him on this thread that consist of "well Nieuwendyk, Ciccarelli and Neely are in.........." That's not good and it doesn't bode well when you talk about a player like that. He needs his own case to be built for him.

As for the Recchi comparison, I've never thought Recchi was a player that would open up the door for others to get in. For those of us that witnessed a 43 year old Recchi in the finals last year it really shouldn't be a discussion anymore if he is HHOF caliber. He was before then and that just solidified it.

Elias doesn't have that going for him, he really has only two elite seasons in his career. Also he was very inconsistent in his career. Never having two great years in a row, often having a down year after a spike year. Maybe like a poor man's Mogilny?

He was important on both Cup wins and he was probably the most important Devil in 2001 when they lost the final to the Avs. There was a nice streak of 3-4 years where he was present deep in the postseason so I don't really get the whole idea that his face wasn't out there.

Lastly, 860 points in 1005 even in the dead puck era leaves a lot to be desired. When Sundin and Modano flirt with a point a game playing in that era and there are still doubters that they make the HHOF then why give Elias a pass? He was and is a fine player but I never felt I was watching a future HHOFer in the making. His playoff stats are good, but not a whole lot different than Ken Linseman to be honest. Good player, not an all-time great though. And for my money is behind Hossa and Alfredsson in career value who are very comparable players that started around the same time

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01-18-2012, 03:26 PM
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The problem with Elias is that he fits into the mold of a player that would open the doors for others. There have been a lot of arguments for him on this thread that consist of "well Nieuwendyk, Ciccarelli and Neely are in.........." That's not good and it doesn't bode well when you talk about a player like that. He needs his own case to be built for him.

As for the Recchi comparison, I've never thought Recchi was a player that would open up the door for others to get in. For those of us that witnessed a 43 year old Recchi in the finals last year it really shouldn't be a discussion anymore if he is HHOF caliber. He was before then and that just solidified it.

Elias doesn't have that going for him, he really has only two elite seasons in his career. Also he was very inconsistent in his career. Never having two great years in a row, often having a down year after a spike year. Maybe like a poor man's Mogilny?

He was important on both Cup wins and he was probably the most important Devil in 2001 when they lost the final to the Avs. There was a nice streak of 3-4 years where he was present deep in the postseason so I don't really get the whole idea that his face wasn't out there.

Lastly, 860 points in 1005 even in the dead puck era leaves a lot to be desired. When Sundin and Modano flirt with a point a game playing in that era and there are still doubters that they make the HHOF then why give Elias a pass? He was and is a fine player but I never felt I was watching a future HHOFer in the making. His playoff stats are good, but not a whole lot different than Ken Linseman to be honest. Good player, not an all-time great though. And for my money is behind Hossa and Alfredsson in career value who are very comparable players that started around the same time
1) who would Elias open the door for?

2) Mogilny sure gets a lot of mileage out of 1992-93. Other than that, I'd take Elias. Elias definitely had consistency issues, but even in down years, he usually led his team in scoring. And Elias easily beats Mogilny in two-way play and playoffs. Mogilny beats Elias in regular season numbers during a high scoring era.

3) How close was Linseman to leading a decade in playoff scoring even pretending there were no Oilers?

4) There are still people who think Modano and Sundin don't get in?

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01-18-2012, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
IMO, he's the perfect candidate for a veteran's committee to induct into the HHOF. Similar to Herbie Lewis in terms of a two-way winger who contributed to multiple Cups, but lacked "star power." But Elias is probably more important to his team.

He led one of the best teams of the era in scoring 8 times, I believe, while playing above average defense. And yes, then you get to his playoff resume.

Joe Nieuwendyk's highest finish in points was 11th. Elias finished 3rd and 6th.

Adjusted points (which I know the HHOF doesn't care about, they still think every 80s forward was better than every dead puck era forward)
Nieuwendyk: 1124 in 1257 games
Elias: 973 in 1005 games

Nieuwendyk won the Smythe in 1999, but I would argue that Elias was the better overall playoff performer.

Don't even get me started on Ciccarelli.

Elias currently has 860 points in 1005 games. He is 35 years old. It's not inconceivable that he would hit 1000 points if he plays until he is 40. IMO, he hits 1000 points playing the way he did, he has a very good shot at the HHOF even without a Veteran's Committee. It might take a few years, but I'm pretty sure Doc Emrick (who did play by play for NJ for years) is still on the HHOF Committee, so Elias would potentially have a strong advocate.
all well said. ya, it's no coincidence that most of the top scorers of all time were based in the 70's and 80's. All except Gordie Howe, who played more games than anyone, and Jagr, who's just that good.

Elias would be borderline in for my personal HOF. I bet he won't make it, but i hope he does.

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01-18-2012, 03:47 PM
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1) who would Elias open the door for?
Hossa?
Alfredsson, Elias, Hossa will be interesting. All of them very good in both offense and defense. All of them with similar All-Star record, all of them respected in the league. They certainly aren't carbon copies of each other, but they are same type of wingers with similar overall careers.

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01-18-2012, 03:51 PM
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Hossa?
Alfredsson, Elias, Hossa will be interesting. All of them very good in both offense and defense. All of them with similar All-Star record, all of them respected in the league. They certainly aren't carbon copies of each other, but they are same type of wingers with similar overall careers.
I used to dismiss Hossa outright but I guess really has started to make a case for himself in the last few years.

IMO, based on the pre-existing standards for the Hall, Alfredsson makes it regardless of what Elias does. But we've yet to see how the committee handles forwards who played in the dead puck era.

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01-18-2012, 03:58 PM
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I used to dismiss Hossa outright but I guess really has started to make a case for himself in the last few years.

IMO, based on the pre-existing standards for the Hall, Alfredsson makes it regardless of what Elias does. But we've yet to see how the committee handles forwards who played in the dead puck era.
Yeah sure, but not vice versa. Hossa has lot of hockey in front of him we will see. I would say he is doing well till now. And his style of hockey would allow him to play at high level even in high age.

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01-18-2012, 04:20 PM
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Based on how he's seen by the media and fans Alfredsson's chances are very high in my opinion.

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01-18-2012, 05:14 PM
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Patrik Elias? Never heard of him

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01-18-2012, 09:09 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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Elias has a similar case to Brian Propp. Best forward on a very good team for a decade. Good playoff scorer. Strong two-way play.

But Elias has passed Propp at this point. He's still producing on his mid-30s. And it helps that his team actually won the Cup.
Propp was exactly the name that popped into my mind as a winger comparison.

I like Elias, but he'd be a pretty marginal induction. I'm surprised that people who oppose Nieuwendyk's induction would be on board with Elias's.

Definitely a guy who did more than score, but only cracking 70 points in four seasons (so far) is pretty underwhelming for a first line player.

Being the best forward on the Devils during their 00-03 stretch helps. If they'd continued that trend post-lockout he probably could have built a playoff resume good enough that he'd really have a great chance. New Jersey crapping the bed in round one three years in a row from 2008-2010 may have sealed his fate though.

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01-18-2012, 09:31 PM
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Propp was exactly the name that popped into my mind as a winger comparison.

I like Elias, but he'd be a pretty marginal induction. I'm surprised that people who oppose Nieuwendyk's induction would be on board with Elias's.

Definitely a guy who did more than score, but only cracking 70 points in four seasons (so far) is pretty underwhelming for a first line player.

Being the best forward on the Devils during their 00-03 stretch helps. If they'd continued that trend post-lockout he probably could have built a playoff resume good enough that he'd really have a great chance. New Jersey crapping the bed in round one three years in a row from 2008-2010 may have sealed his fate though.
If the Hall had higher standards for forwards, then I don't think anyone would talk about Elias.

But the precident for inducting excellent playoff performers on successful teams has already been set.

What makes Glenn Anderson a better induction than Patrik Elias? I realize he was a big cog in a dynasty, but the days of true dynasties are over - nobody since Edmonton has been closer to being a dynasty than the 00-03 Devils.

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01-18-2012, 10:01 PM
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Hossa?
Alfredsson, Elias, Hossa will be interesting. All of them very good in both offense and defense. All of them with similar All-Star record, all of them respected in the league. They certainly aren't carbon copies of each other, but they are same type of wingers with similar overall careers.
I kind of think Alfredsson gets inducted... And in less time then one might expect... Rather soon after he is eligible.

Then Hossa and Elias are pretty comparable. And HHOF voters are not fans... Mostly real coaches and players that are going to hold Elias and Hossa and Alfie in a lot higher respect then dumb media or fans.

Elite 2 way 1000 point or near, winners that were character guys and on good teams... I think all 3 get in the HHOF eventually.

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01-18-2012, 10:03 PM
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Elias has three problems: 1) he's not Canadian (it will be much tougher for a European to get in based on simply being consistently good) 2) he's a forward for New Jersey, nobody will remember their Cup teams for their scoring forwards and 3) his best years were the pre-lockout Dead Puck years and those guys will all get shortchanged.

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