HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Carter/Richards production vs. new guys

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-15-2012, 07:07 AM
  #1
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 485
vCash: 500
Carter/Richards production vs. new guys

I remember a bunch of people saying the trades were bad moves by the Flyers and that Homer was an "idiot". There were no shortage of whiners on this board. At this point I don't think there's any question the Flyers won both trades and the sentimental whiners were wrong. Not only are they better now, but look at the average age of those 4 players. Not one of them plays on the top line or top PP unit and has inflated numbers due to Giroux.

What's that Carter was hurt? So was Schenn and that's part of my point. He's always hurt.

Points
Voracek 26
Simmonds 23
Couts 16
Schenn 3
Total 68
Avg. age 21

Richards 26
Carter 17
Total 43
Avg. age 27


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 01-22-2012 at 10:12 AM.
Guffaw is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 07:20 AM
  #2
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
That's still 4 players production against 2

Even still, I'm happy with the trades.

Spongolium* is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 07:24 AM
  #3
flyersfan187
Registered User
 
flyersfan187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Morrisdale, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,827
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to flyersfan187 Send a message via Skype™ to flyersfan187
It doesn't matter about production. The off season was about trying to build a winning team through building our team chemistry. Richards and Carter both did not get along with the coach and did not like his system.

The Carter trade has turned out pretty nice with getting Couts in the draft and Voracek has been a good solid role player with us. I still would like to see what kind of contract he gets in the off season as Carter was signed long term on a discounted cost.

The Richards trade is tough to say. Richards was one of our better leaders on the team in the past and shown the ability to get the team to come together on big hits and properly timed fights. Simmonds is good at what he does but he will be a 2nd/3rd line player in his career. Schenn is still a wait and see but he has potential to be a Richards like player in his future.

All in all we got younger, cheaper contracts and was trying to build the team chemistry in that process while getting rid of the current bad apples. It is still too early to tell who won the deal, but currently I believe it will work out for every team involved.

flyersfan187 is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 07:38 AM
  #4
Mgkibbles
Registered User
 
Mgkibbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Gilbertsville, Pa
Posts: 2,024
vCash: 500
Plus the combined cap hit of Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier and Schenn is around $8.5 million. Richards and Carter's combined cap hit is about $10.9. So we have more depth, and more scoring, for less money. If I was a girl I'd be wet right now.

Mgkibbles is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 07:41 AM
  #5
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,473
vCash: 500
There was already a thread like this. like last week i think

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 07:52 AM
  #6
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,048
vCash: 50
Id still undo the richards trade

Krishna is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 08:19 AM
  #7
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
That's still 4 players production against 2

Even still, I'm happy with the trades.
Knew that was comin. Here ya go big guy.

Simmonds + Voracek= 49pts. 22.5 yrs old

Carter + Richards= 43pts. 27 yrs. old

That factoring out two top 8 draft pics in Couts and Schenn

Guffaw is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 08:20 AM
  #8
RJ8812
Gunner Stahl #9
 
RJ8812's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sudbury
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,740
vCash: 769
this again?

move on guys. no sense rubbing it in that we don't need either player

RJ8812 is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 08:21 AM
  #9
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Plus the combined cap hit of Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier and Schenn is around $8.5 million. Richards and Carter's combined cap hit is about $10.9. So we have more depth, and more scoring, for less money. If I was a girl I'd be wet right now.
Absolutely. They were two genius moves. Better now and restocked for the future. That's not easy to do.

Guffaw is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 08:24 AM
  #10
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
There was already a thread like this. like last week i think
I wouldn't know. I live in the Rink forum.

Just hoping the whiner sees this that argued with me right after the trades happened. Now if I could just find the girl(Flyers fan)in Dewey Beach that laughed at my JAGR shirt and told me he sucked and was too old all night back in July.

Guffaw is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 08:25 AM
  #11
LePalle
Registered User
 
LePalle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,838
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
this again?

move on guys. no sense rubbing it in that we don't need either player
Rubbing it in? I see no rubbing anything in.

This thread is just being positive about our team. Why is that a bad thing?

LePalle is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 08:34 AM
  #12
dookie88
Registered User
 
dookie88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 2,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Knew that was comin. Here ya go big guy.

Simmonds + Voracek= 49pts. 22.5 yrs old

Carter + Richards= 43pts. 27 yrs. old

That factoring out two top 8 draft pics in Couts and Schenn
Games played:
Simmonds + Voracek = 43 + 43 = 86

Carter + Richards = 30 + 37 = 67

dookie88 is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 08:41 AM
  #13
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
The Carter trade is looking quite good, largely because Couturier fell to us. The Richards one... not so much, but we will have to see over time. If you don't believe me, go read the Kings board. Youll remember all the **** Ruchards did that will never show up on the scoresheet.


Last edited by Jester: 01-15-2012 at 09:30 AM.
Jester is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 09:16 AM
  #14
SeanCWombBroom
DownieFaceSoftener
 
SeanCWombBroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,743
vCash: 500
I liked both trades, being cautiously optimistic about both, and being a huge Richards fan (and former defender) was still optimistic about the trade. So much of it hinges on Schenn. The Carter trade looks like a slamdunk. Cooter is at least worth Carter by himself. Throw in Voracek, who looks like Giroux after a hard night out on the town, and is a huge upgrade over Leino and is a much more decent puck possession player. I would like to see the Flyers strengthen their puck possession.

That being said: Richards and Carter had "intangibles" that are hard to measure (such as Carter's ability to create space for himself) and are certainly really good forwards. Richard's amazing PK work and control of the center of ice near the blue line is hard to measure, but since the trade is this team performing better halfway through?

Just for fun (not including pp / pk since most time is 5on5--if someone wants to add that -- sweet):

Last year's team:

Goals for 5on5: 185
Goals against 5on5: 150
GF/60 5on5: 2.9
Shots For/60: 31.6
GA/60 5on5: 2.3
Shot's against/60: 30.3

This year's team:

Goals for 5on5: 98
Goals against 5on5: 90
GF/60 5on5: 3.1
Shots for/60: 32.1
GA/60: 2.8
Shot's against/60: 30.0

TL/DR: This year's team looks a bit better on offense (so much for that problem), and a little worse defensively.

SeanCWombBroom is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:11 AM
  #15
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Games played:
Simmonds + Voracek = 43 + 43 = 86

Carter + Richards = 30 + 37 = 67
Your proving my point. Carter is fragile. He's always hurt. Part of a players value is his age and durability.

Make a point instead of nitpicking. Are you arguing the trades did not make the Flyers a stronger franchise overall? If you are that's a tough argument to support.

Guffaw is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:15 AM
  #16
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The Carter trade is looking quite good, largely because Couturier fell to us. The Richards one... not so much, but we will have to see over time. If you don't believe me, go read the Kings board. Youll remember all the **** Ruchards did that will never show up on the scoresheet.
Richards not so much? How so?

Simmonds alone has only 3 less points. Brayden Schenn is 20 yrs. old. Richards salary dump opened up money for other players.

Richards is a smaller physical player that gets by on work ethic. That's not an easy way to play. He will not have a long career as an elite player if he's even at that level now. I believe you've already seen the best of him. Schenn....not so much

Guffaw is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:17 AM
  #17
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 485
vCash: 500
Intangibles. They didn't win a cup with them and were dead last in prospects.

They now lead the league in rookie points and remain a contender. What's the argument? There is none other than ones based on emotional bias.

Guffaw is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:19 AM
  #18
YuioIklo
Registered User
 
YuioIklo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Quebec
Country: Martinique
Posts: 1,421
vCash: 100
It's 4 roster spot against 2... so your stats aren't valid. But I do agree that the trades were good. The way Couturier plays as a 19 years old, he's on pace for near 20 goals while playing on the 4th line and plays very well defensively, I see no reason why he wouldn't become better than Carter in a few years. And if Schenn doesn't become injury prone, I see him becoming at least as good as Richards, but it's not as clear as Couturier yet though.

The only problem is : They're all centers. Couturier could become a 1st line center, but that spot is obviously G's spot. That's why I'd rather see a winger like JVR becoming a all star player. But whatever, having 2 superstars centers on 2 lines would also be awesome (or even 3).

YuioIklo is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:20 AM
  #19
Codith
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 722
vCash: 500
The Carter trade was a definite win, getting Couts alone will payoff way quicker, then add in Voracek. Carter seems to be the new Mr.Glass.

Richards trade is still up in the air, I like what Simmonds brings, and Schenn could turn out to be a stud, but Richie is still a better overall player right now.

Codith is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:43 AM
  #20
dookie88
Registered User
 
dookie88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 2,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Richards not so much? How so?

Simmonds alone has only 3 less points. Brayden Schenn is 20 yrs. old. Richards salary dump opened up money for other players.

Richards is a smaller physical player that gets by on work ethic. That's not an easy way to play. He will not have a long career as an elite player if he's even at that level now. I believe you've already seen the best of him. Schenn....not so much
Yeah, Bryz has looked so good.


I like the Carter trade, but trading Richards, from a hockey perspective wasn't clever.
He's still better than anyone we have except Giroux, his points this year wouldn't be the same with us. He's playing for the freaking Kings, afterall.
But I get why he was traded, he probably would have been sour if he sticked around just because Carter was shipped out.
Just to say we are better off without him isn't true, you look at the way we play defense and you recognize that we miss someone like him.

dookie88 is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:45 AM
  #21
dookie88
Registered User
 
dookie88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 2,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Your proving my point. Carter is fragile. He's always hurt. Part of a players value is his age and durability.

Make a point instead of nitpicking. Are you arguing the trades did not make the Flyers a stronger franchise overall? If you are that's a tough argument to support.
Then don't go ahead and compare points while not mentioning the number of games they played in. Go read a statistics book or something.

dookie88 is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:48 AM
  #22
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The Carter trade is looking quite good, largely because Couturier fell to us. The Richards one... not so much, but we will have to see over time. If you don't believe me, go read the Kings board. Youll remember all the **** Ruchards did that will never show up on the scoresheet.
Yes, I do remember this. To a very similar extent, it's the same thing Wayne Simmonds does night in and night out that will never show up on the scoresheet.

He has been quite similar to Richie in scoring this year and he's also the one who constantly does hard work in the corners, lays giant hits, KOs guys in fights, works hard on the backcheck, etc.

Kings fans were totally right when they said that Simmonds would become a fan favorite.

If there's a player I miss in that trade, it's obviously Richie... he was an all effort player and you just can't have enough of those, but the addition of Wayne Simmonds AND the bright future of Brayden Schenn AND the 2nd round pick in a deep draft more than compensate us for his loss IMO. I think we'll end up a much stronger team as a result of it.

And the Carter thing you can't even argue. Holmgren was a thief there. You could make an argument that Vorabeast alone is going to go on to a more promising career here in Philly than Carter will in C-Bus. Then you add in Sean Couturier (who I consider the 2nd most untouchable guy on our team after Giroux), that's just GRAVY... and a whole lot of it.

WeekendAtBernies is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:49 AM
  #23
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Richards not so much? How so?

Simmonds alone has only 3 less points. Brayden Schenn is 20 yrs. old. Richards salary dump opened up money for other players.

Richards is a smaller physical player that gets by on work ethic. That's not an easy way to play. He will not have a long career as an elite player if he's even at that level now. I believe you've already seen the best of him. Schenn....not so much
Because Richards is an above average player in all situations, and one of the best PKers of his generation. Simmons and Schenn's aren't replacing that. This without getting into your flat comparison that isn't really grappling with injuries.

If you don't think the Flyers would be better right now with Ruchards giving this team a strong two way line that can actually stop the opposition, I don't know what to say. Carter was always better than his detractors claimed, but not the all around force. Giroux has been having an epic season thus far, but is barely keeping himself above even. That line would be minus if not for Hartnell, who played a similar role for Briere and Leino.

Schenn needs to stop getting hurt and become a very good player before we can even remotely consider that deal a win. Richards is an extremely rare combination of offense, defense, and physicality in the modern NHL.

Jester is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:54 AM
  #24
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Yes, I do remember this. To a very similar extent, it's the same thing Wayne Simmonds does night in and night out that will never show up on the scoresheet.

He has been quite similar to Richie in scoring this year and he's also the one who constantly does hard work in the corners, lays giant hits, KOs guys in fights, works hard on the backcheck, etc.

Kings fans were totally right when they said that Simmonds would become a fan favorite.

If there's a player I miss in that trade, it's obviously Richie... he was an all effort player and you just can't have enough of those, but the addition of Wayne Simmonds AND the bright future of Brayden Schenn AND the 2nd round pick in a deep draft more than compensate us for his loss IMO. I think we'll end up a much stronger team as a result of it.

And the Carter thing you can't even argue. Holmgren was a thief there. You could make an argument that Vorabeast alone is going to go on to a more promising career here in Philly than Carter will in C-Bus. Then you add in Sean Couturier (who I consider the 2nd most untouchable guy on our team after Giroux), that's just GRAVY... and a whole lot of it.
Simmonds is a good player, but he's a complimentary player. He doesn't kill penalties, isn't a center, etc. Schenn is going to make or break that deal.

Jester is offline  
Old
01-15-2012, 10:55 AM
  #25
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Yeah, Bryz has looked so good.


I like the Carter trade, but trading Richards, from a hockey perspective wasn't clever.
He's still better than anyone we have except Giroux, his points this year wouldn't be the same with us. He's playing for the freaking Kings, afterall.
But I get why he was traded, he probably would have been sour if he sticked around just because Carter was shipped out.
Just to say we are better off without him isn't true, you look at the way we play defense and you recognize that we miss someone like him.
Richards played with guys like Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown for much of his time in LA so far. He also played on the first powerplay w/ defensemen like Doughty and Johnson. Acting like the Kings are terrible is a total joke. For most of his time there, he played w/ better teammates than he would've had he been in Philadelphia.

Had he still been here, he would've likely been Centering some line consisting of (injured) JVR or Read on the LW and Voracek on the RW. I think JVR will be amazing down the line after he gets whatever surgery he needs and recovers and I think Voracek is promising, but there's no doubt in my mind that Kopitar and Brown blow both of those guys out of the water.

WeekendAtBernies is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:16 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.