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Old
02-10-2012, 09:38 PM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
You know what sucks about this whole thing? Even if he is not traded on the 27th we will still have to deal with Carter trade talk until he really is traded this off season, traded years down the road or when his contract runs out in 10 years.
You covered them all.... we will see.

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02-10-2012, 10:45 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
You know what sucks about this whole thing? Even if he is not traded on the 27th we will still have to deal with Carter trade talk until he really is traded this off season, traded years down the road or when his contract runs out in 10 years.
It's still easier with this than it is with the Nash to Toronto crap that started back up. sheesh.

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02-10-2012, 10:47 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
You know what sucks about this whole thing? Even if he is not traded on the 27th we will still have to deal with Carter trade talk until he really is traded this off season, traded years down the road or when his contract runs out in 10 years.
If he helps us win a Cup, that all goes away.

...yes, I know. Let me have my crazy dream.

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02-11-2012, 12:14 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Nash is "openly willing to stay here" based on what. His own public comments? We know that's bogus, because Carter said point blank he didn't ask for a trade, and yet we're still not only considering it a possibility, most of us seem to think he's flat-out lying.



Of course not - what's your point? That a certain select set of criteria that you made, up, and applied just so in a way you suggest, happens to suport a position you hold? Your discussion of this topic is a moving target.
So, if it's possible that Nash is just putting on a face for the public, isn't it possible that Carter is also?

I wasn't originally trying to make any particular point - the purpose of the topic is to discuss the future of Jeff Carter; that's all I was and am doing. My opinion is that he'll likely be moved, whether it's at the deadline or not. My speculation was, and is, simply that our team is heading nowhere with him on the roster, and that his trade value may be worth more to us right now than his value on the roster. At no point did I bash Jeff Carter as a player, nor did I mention anything about "must trade him or else" ... plainly put, my opinion is that the direction we're heading in with him here doesn't seem to be working. Why not explore options?

For whatever it's worth, I was as excited as anyone else to see the Jeff Carter trade, as it meant a new direction for the team and hopefully a way up out of the cellar. I had the same concerns as everyone else did at the time - would he mesh with Rick Nash? Did he really want to come here? Would he be fully into making the situation right?

Basically, I still have all of those questions.

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02-11-2012, 12:26 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
You know what sucks about this whole thing? Even if he is not traded on the 27th we will still have to deal with Carter trade talk until he really is traded this off season, traded years down the road or when his contract runs out in 10 years.
When I read this, I had visions of all the board drama surrounding the ongoing Filatov saga.

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02-11-2012, 01:08 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
The point that I was making is that, even though he's been generating scoring chances and, on occasion scoring, the team still isn't seeing success. He simply isn't the right piece for our puzzle. If we can trade him and parlay that into assets that might eventually help this team win, then that's the deal we need to make.

We saw it here in Spokane this year, where we had a kid (Anthony Bardaro) who was scoring very effectively (18 goals, 37 points in 29 games); the team wasn't having as much success as they wanted. So, they sent Bardaro away in a trade that returned a high potential player, who was struggling a bit, and a backup goaltender. The rest, as they say, is history. The backup goaltender has taken at least a share of the crease duties (and been very good), and the slowly developing prospect has fit right into the team system and the locker room, and the improvements are immediate as the team has battled back into respectability in the league.

One example I could use would be Joe Thornton in Boston. Even though Jumbo Joe was scoring, the team was still struggling. So, they sent him away, got serviceable pieces in return, and took the franchise in a different (and ultimately, better) direction. And, Joe Thornton was highly successful in San Jose, right from the offset.

I'm not bashing Carter or his play. I'm not trying to be hard on him - I'm just stating the facts. With Jeff Carter on the team, right now, the team isn't succeeding. If they trade him and add depth at the other positions, where they've struggled all year, it may very well be a huge boost for the team.
As much as I enjoy your analysis for the most part, I think you swung for the fences and missed on this one.

If a team has obvious talent and is badly underperforming, then there are a few things to consider as undermining factors. Is the coaching staff getting the most out of their players? Have there been injuries? Have there been ineffective players whose production hasn't been replaced? Of course, this starts with a baseline that a team is supposed to contend and is coming up short.

Columbus has had problems from the time that it entered the league with scoring goals and with preventing them. Jeff Carter is someone who can do both at an extremely high level. The fact that it hasn't produced wins can be explained by several factors.

The first is that, without question, the coaching staff wasn't getting the most out of anyone. Far be it from me to take shots at a coach who's not around to defend himself, but Scott Arniel's line combinations and ice time distributions made zero sense. A neutral observer would swear that he was doing what he did to prove a point to the front office. Actually, that's not true. I'm not entirely neutral, and I think that was a motivating factor. That's just a hunch on my part, but I think it's realistic.

The second, of course, is injuries and suspensions. Some teams could withstand the loss of Carter and Wisniewski for long periods of time, but when combined with other injuries and other things like the bizarre treatment of Derick Brassard under Arniel, this isn't one of those teams.

The third is that there are holes on this team. In the offseason, I fully expect to see one or two legitimate shutdown defensemen being added to the NHL roster. Losing Hejda and Klesla was a blow because there were no replacements, but one of the realities is that there's been a bit of a shortage around the league with shutdown defensemen. Pittsburgh has a couple who could be available via trade, Minnesota has a couple who could be available via UFA, but there's actually a good chance of boosting the blueline significantly. I'll say that a healthy Martinek would have made a difference this year, but with a good shot at #1 overall, I'm fine without. Granted, none of these guys are Alex Petrovic, so...

There's also a gaping hole between the pipes, and that's even when Mason's playing. I'm not going to go into any detail at all, but the sooner that his ass is out the door, the better this team is going to be.

And to address the Thornton trade, Boston crippled themselves badly with that move. It was an idiotic trade, and the idea of moving an All-Star forward in the name of a shakeup while getting nothing of consequence but a bunch of guys off the scrap heap didn't help them. Boston's revival into a champion had somewhere between little and nothing to do with the trade, and I'll argue that moving him may have set the team back more than it helped.

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02-11-2012, 03:15 AM
  #282
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Agree 1,000,000,000% with palinka

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02-11-2012, 06:09 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
If he helps us win a Cup, that all goes away.

...yes, I know. Let me have my crazy dream.
Recorded for Posterity: Agreeing with V.

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02-11-2012, 06:31 AM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
As much as I enjoy your analysis for the most part, I think you swung for the fences and missed on this one.

If a team has obvious talent and is badly underperforming, then there are a few things to consider as undermining factors. Is the coaching staff getting the most out of their players? Have there been injuries? Have there been ineffective players whose production hasn't been replaced? Of course, this starts with a baseline that a team is supposed to contend and is coming up short.

Columbus has had problems from the time that it entered the league with scoring goals and with preventing them. Jeff Carter is someone who can do both at an extremely high level. The fact that it hasn't produced wins can be explained by several factors.

The first is that, without question, the coaching staff wasn't getting the most out of anyone. Far be it from me to take shots at a coach who's not around to defend himself, but Scott Arniel's line combinations and ice time distributions made zero sense. A neutral observer would swear that he was doing what he did to prove a point to the front office. Actually, that's not true. I'm not entirely neutral, and I think that was a motivating factor. That's just a hunch on my part, but I think it's realistic.

The second, of course, is injuries and suspensions. Some teams could withstand the loss of Carter and Wisniewski for long periods of time, but when combined with other injuries and other things like the bizarre treatment of Derick Brassard under Arniel, this isn't one of those teams.

The third is that there are holes on this team. In the offseason, I fully expect to see one or two legitimate shutdown defensemen being added to the NHL roster. Losing Hejda and Klesla was a blow because there were no replacements, but one of the realities is that there's been a bit of a shortage around the league with shutdown defensemen. Pittsburgh has a couple who could be available via trade, Minnesota has a couple who could be available via UFA, but there's actually a good chance of boosting the blueline significantly. I'll say that a healthy Martinek would have made a difference this year, but with a good shot at #1 overall, I'm fine without. Granted, none of these guys are Alex Petrovic, so...

There's also a gaping hole between the pipes, and that's even when Mason's playing. I'm not going to go into any detail at all, but the sooner that his ass is out the door, the better this team is going to be.

And to address the Thornton trade, Boston crippled themselves badly with that move. It was an idiotic trade, and the idea of moving an All-Star forward in the name of a shakeup while getting nothing of consequence but a bunch of guys off the scrap heap didn't help them. Boston's revival into a champion had somewhere between little and nothing to do with the trade, and I'll argue that moving him may have set the team back more than it helped.
This. IMO the most important isnt only players but the coach who can motivate players and help youngs of all nationalities too. And especially, use his assets and not to give him play a system what isnt fit for them.

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02-11-2012, 07:17 AM
  #285
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Palinka,

You didn't actually cover the rumors about Carter. Is Porty correct and he's gone no matter what? I think trading him at this point is a mistake. I would go as far as to say if the rumor on another blog about issues between him and Nash are correct I would move Nash over Carter.

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02-11-2012, 07:29 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Nash is "openly willing to stay here" based on what. His own public comments? We know that's bogus, because Carter said point blank he didn't ask for a trade, and yet we're still not only considering it a possibility, most of us seem to think he's flat-out lying.
Probably based on signing an 8 year extension instead of testing the market, but that's just me.

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02-11-2012, 08:26 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by GScott View Post
I would go as far as to say if the rumor on another blog about issues between him and Nash are correct I would move Nash over Carter.
Please elaborate and/or direct me to that other blog. Thanks.

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02-11-2012, 08:55 AM
  #288
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The only thing that I think some people miss, and that I keep harping on is our third line. I don't think we have had a good third line for quite some time now, and I consider that a big reason in our lack of goal scoring success. They may be a very good checking line, but they do not contribute near enough in the scoring column.

I suppose you like to build a third line through your system, but this hasn't happened thus far. Fourth line A, and fourth line B just ain't getting it. If they want three scoring lines they are going to have to drastically upgrade either the second line, and drop the current guys down to third, or the third line itself.

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02-11-2012, 09:13 AM
  #289
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If Columbus trades Carter for anything less than an upgrade, they'll be doing their franchise and their fans a disservice. For too long, the Bluejackets have been banking on "potential" and the expressed hope things will improve, without actually making the kind of proactive moves to propel a team forward.

The reason Boston hasn't floundered since losing Joe Thornton is 1] Tim Thomas has quickly ascended to the ranks of perennial Vezina threat and 2] a Hall of Fame forward/captain was replaced with a Hall of Fame defenseman/captain. That's not including the bevy of young talent they already had, or acquired along the way.

Columbus has some great veteran players in Nash, Carter, Vermette, and Umberger. You have even younger, yet potentially equally capable talent in Johansen, and Brassard. Unfortunately, Mason started playing like a hooker on a bender, and the blueline still looks like a dog's ass.

Now's the time for management to push on, not tear down. Get yourself a better coach, add that top-5 draft pick to your arsenal, shed some future assets to upgrade the defense, and focus on replacing your goaltender with a shooter tutor, because it'd probably be an improvement.

Just a Philly fan's POV*.

*I realize the irony in commenting on another team's goaltender, but I also feel extremely qualified to make the following statement: a goaltender's name and credentials are totally irrelevant. The only things that matter at the end of the day are his save percentage and his win/loss ratio. That's what separated Esche, and Biron from Niittymaki, Leighton, and now Bryzgalov.


Last edited by Clown Baby: 02-11-2012 at 09:19 AM.
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02-11-2012, 10:30 AM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfboard View Post
Please elaborate and/or direct me to that other blog. Thanks.
It was mentioned here:

http://tenminutemisconduct.com/?p=1419

It was the first I had read it anywhere.

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02-11-2012, 11:42 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by GScott View Post
It was mentioned here:

http://tenminutemisconduct.com/?p=1419

It was the first I had read it anywhere.
Thanks!

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02-11-2012, 11:44 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
So, if it's possible that Nash is just putting on a face for the public, isn't it possible that Carter is also?

I wasn't originally trying to make any particular point - the purpose of the topic is to discuss the future of Jeff Carter; that's all I was and am doing. My opinion is that he'll likely be moved, whether it's at the deadline or not. My speculation was, and is, simply that our team is heading nowhere with him on the roster, and that his trade value may be worth more to us right now than his value on the roster. At no point did I bash Jeff Carter as a player, nor did I mention anything about "must trade him or else" ... plainly put, my opinion is that the direction we're heading in with him here doesn't seem to be working. Why not explore options?

For whatever it's worth, I was as excited as anyone else to see the Jeff Carter trade, as it meant a new direction for the team and hopefully a way up out of the cellar. I had the same concerns as everyone else did at the time - would he mesh with Rick Nash? Did he really want to come here? Would he be fully into making the situation right?

Basically, I still have all of those questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by megashock5 View Post
Probably based on signing an 8 year extension instead of testing the market, but that's just me.
This is now so far afield as to be silly.

Sore Loser's original point was - Carter's playing better but the team is still losing, therefore he should be traded. I felt that logic was flawed, and posted such. SL countered by justifying the original position, and I pointed out why I thought that justification was also flawed.

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02-11-2012, 11:53 AM
  #293
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If Columbus trades Carter for anything less than an upgrade, they'll be doing their franchise and their fans a disservice. For too long, the Bluejackets have been banking on "potential" and the expressed hope things will improve, without actually making the kind of proactive moves to propel a team forward.

The reason Boston hasn't floundered since losing Joe Thornton is 1] Tim Thomas has quickly ascended to the ranks of perennial Vezina threat and 2] a Hall of Fame forward/captain was replaced with a Hall of Fame defenseman/captain. That's not including the bevy of young talent they already had, or acquired along the way.

Columbus has some great veteran players in Nash, Carter, Vermette, and Umberger. You have even younger, yet potentially equally capable talent in Johansen, and Brassard. Unfortunately, Mason started playing like a hooker on a bender, and the blueline still looks like a dog's ass.

Now's the time for management to push on, not tear down. Get yourself a better coach, add that top-5 draft pick to your arsenal, shed some future assets to upgrade the defense, and focus on replacing your goaltender with a shooter tutor, because it'd probably be an improvement.

Just a Philly fan's POV*.

*I realize the irony in commenting on another team's goaltender, but I also feel extremely qualified to make the following statement: a goaltender's name and credentials are totally irrelevant. The only things that matter at the end of the day are his save percentage and his win/loss ratio. That's what separated Esche, and Biron from Niittymaki, Leighton, and now Bryzgalov.
I am going to disagree with you on this.

Columbus is #29 in Defense and #28 in Offense. Even with names like Vermette, Nash, Umberger, Carter, Prospal, etc, this is not an impressive team. They could trade all of these players and their is still a strong chance that they won't drop statistically because they already have 1 foot in the basement.

The Bruins reference really isn't comparable ether. Joe Thornton for one is a much better player then Carter. He was well over a point per game with 33 points in 24 games and when he was traded and had recently scored 101 points in a season. The last season the Bruins played they finished #2 overall in the East. This move did make Boston flounder, they fell to #13 in the East without Thornton. The next season the same thing happened they finished #13 in the East again. Then finally they managed to crawl into the #8 seat the year after that. As you said people like Thomas and Chara were the reason for this but this wasn't because of star power it was because they were strong defensively.

Even if mentioned players in Carter, Nash, Vermette, Umberger, Prospal, etc were all having great seasons this would still be a bad team because they can't play defense. Comparable teams...

- The Ottawa Senators, were a great team for a while with players like Spezza, Alfi, Heatley, Chara, Redden, etc. What happened when Chara left and Redden forgot how to play? They had offensive power but they sucked.

- The Tampa Bay Lightning, Stanley Cup winning team with star power in Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis, Boyle, The Bulin Wall, etc. What happened when they let the Bulin Wall go and traded Boyle and let others go in favor of keeping the big offensive guns? They fell out of the playoffs.

- The early Washington Capital seasons with Ovechkin. No defense all offense, no playoffs.

- Sidney Crosby's rookie season. Played on a Penguin team that had monster names with Lemieux, Recchi, Leclair, Palffy, Gonchar, including other key players who helped them win a cup in Fleury, Orpik, Talbot, Whitney, etc. They had the #30 ranked defense by a wide margin. Finished with one of the worst records.


- Atlanta Thrashers, a team that has sported Kovalchuk, Hossa, Heatley, Savard but sucked for year after year because they could not play defense. The one time they came close they went all out trading prospects and picks for talented vets and they got swept out of the first round only to return to the basement of the NHL and ultimately lose there team. Atlanta is also comparable because they have destroyed a huge amount of prospects.


The NHL teams that have all struggled with developing talent all rose to the top when they sured up the defense. Teams like the Predators, Coyotes, Blues, even the Rangers and Devils could be in this category. Even the LA Kings of this season who are #30 in offense yet clinging to a playoff spot with one of the best defenses.

IMO Columbus needs to move some of those overpaid underachiving offensive players and bring in some strong defensive prospects and invest more money in defense (goalies included).

Fact: The Blue Jackets forwards make more money then the top 11 offenses in the entire NHL. #12 being the Capitals are about 1 million more.

EDIT:

Let me also add I don't think Carter is trying this season. He doesn't have to play for a contract and reports continue to come out saying he still isn't happy. IMO the most telling stat is his hits. He has 5 hits all season. Even in Philadelphia when he was known for being a lazy floater who avoided physical play he still managed to get 60+ hits a season. In an 82 game season Carter would be on pace for 12 hits all year. That shows me a guy who doesn't care about doing the little things or playing for the team.


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02-11-2012, 12:43 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by GScott View Post
It was mentioned here:

http://tenminutemisconduct.com/?p=1419

It was the first I had read it anywhere.
Rumors, rumors, rumors. Who knows what's really going on except those on the team.

The idea of keeping Carter, moving Nash to add players to fill other needs, and drafting Yakupov to replace Nash's numbers seems to me to be a realistic way to change the culture and have a fighting chance at having a much better team next season.

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02-11-2012, 12:57 PM
  #295
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GScott View Post
It was mentioned here:

http://tenminutemisconduct.com/?p=1419

It was the first I had read it anywhere.
I think Little included that more as an illustration of how diverse and generally crazy those rumors are getting rather than as anything legit. 10MM isn't exactly the sort of blog that mentions such things with the intention of giving 'em any weight at all. (Part of why I love it so much, in fact.)

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02-11-2012, 01:12 PM
  #296
Palinka
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Palinka,

You didn't actually cover the rumors about Carter. Is Porty correct and he's gone no matter what? I think trading him at this point is a mistake. I would go as far as to say if the rumor on another blog about issues between him and Nash are correct I would move Nash over Carter.
Do you want me to be honest?

I think Portzline is full of crap. His track record wasn't particularly good to begin with. I think his style, which is largely nothing but a bunch of half-assed innuendos and intimations, is little better than Eklund. For the last month, all we've heard is the story of what's supposedly really going on, but he had no idea that a contract extension was on the table for Prospal. While Prospal was considering that extension, Portzline was talking about how much he would fetch at the deadline. How much of an egg on the face is it that one day it's deadline talk, and the next day it's the GM himself breaking the news out of nowhere about the extension?

If I had to offer an opinion, which I've never been shy about doing, I would have to believe that a rebuilding/retooling plan with Scott Howson and Craig Patrick has Jeff Carter as a focal point. If Carter is truly unhappy because the team isn't winning, the only way to alleviate that is by winning. And I don't believe for a second that Prospal, who is near the end of his career, would have re-signed in the name of stability over the chance to win. I don't think this team is that far off, but the roster holes are pronounced and obvious. Personally, I'm confident that they'll be addressed this offseason.

And when that happens, anyone who's unhappy will fall in line quickly. And anyone who's unhappy on a winning team will be shipped out. I don't think that Howson, who by and large has a very good trade record, is going to ship out the long-coveted first-line center inside of 12 months without a massive payment. And I don't mean this crap from Toronto involving Nazem Kadri and Keith Aulie either, I mean elite prospects and high picks and some damned good NHLers. I mentioned a few months ago that a return for Nash from Winnipeg would be Burmistrov, Enstrom, and a 1st-rounder. That same value holds true for Carter as well.

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02-11-2012, 01:30 PM
  #297
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I hope you are correct. Portzline did seem to back pedal slightly on Carter in this week's podcast.

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02-11-2012, 01:36 PM
  #298
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I used to trust Portzline, and I still appreciate certain stuff he provides, but he's now next to eklund at the bottom on people who I trust that actually know player personnel. Portzline has not been right about anything at all really over the past few years. It's time that we all really stop taking what he says seriously, because he has proven with false and missing information over the past few years that he can't be relied upon when it comes to anything but game day happenings and opinion pieces.

For me personally I just find it hard to believe that unless Carter wants out that the team would choose to move him over Nash. There outputs are near identical and one is paid significantly less. They've also failed to build with Nash for many years, I would think Nash is more respected so he should garner more assets in a trade. With that said, to me it's a no brainer that you would trade the captain if you were going the significant trade route because he's going to fill the holes and not really leave one behind with Yakupov coming in.

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02-11-2012, 01:55 PM
  #299
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by Matt Foley View Post
... drafting Yakupov to replace Nash's numbers seems to me to be a realistic way to change the culture and have a fighting chance at having a much better team next season.
We've had unrealistic expectations for young players before (ie. Filatov, Brule, Klesla, and on, and on...), but to expect Nail to come in and immediately replace a guy who's averaged 30+ goals a year, been an all-star multiple time, and a National team standout seems completely over the edge.

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02-11-2012, 02:00 PM
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Doug19
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
We've had unrealistic expectations for young players before (ie. Filatov, Brule, Klesla, and on, and on...), but to expect Nail to come in and immediately replace a guy who's averaged 30+ goals a year, been an all-star multiple time, and a National team standout seems completely over the edge.
I don't think so at all. It would be a typical CBJ thing for Nail to fail, but recent history suggests that forwards going #1 come in and impact there teams year 1. I don't think we should expect anything less with Nail just because of guys we've picked after the elite talent was gone.

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