HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Columbus Blue Jackets
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Carter

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-11-2012, 02:12 PM
  #301
pete goegan
HFBoards Sponsor
 
pete goegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,380
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
I don't think so at all. It would be a typical CBJ thing for Nail to fail, but recent history suggests that forwards going #1 come in and impact there teams year 1. I don't think we should expect anything less with Nail just because of guys we've picked after the elite talent was gone.
Who said anything about him failing or not having an impact? What I said was, believing he'll come in and replace Nash's impact is unrealistic.

pete goegan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 02:53 PM
  #302
Gagnefan924
Need Moar AmericanZ
 
Gagnefan924's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Who said anything about him failing or not having an impact? What I said was, believing he'll come in and replace Nash's impact is unrealistic.
I think if Nash brings in the needed trade assets, he wont have to "replace Nash". The whole team collectively will replace him and quite frankly, we'd be better off. Where have we gone with Nash? I'm not hating on him its a justified question. If Nash brings in a top 6 forward, top 4 dman, and a goalie, we wont have to worry about Nash not being here. Sure you hate to lose a goal scorer like him but I'm sick and tired of him loafing. Carter has brought more passion than Nash lately. I think its perfectly ok to think that Nash deserves to be gone more so than Carter.

Gagnefan924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:06 PM
  #303
TaketheCannoli
RIP
 
TaketheCannoli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Country: United States
Posts: 8,744
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GScott View Post
Palinka,

You didn't actually cover the rumors about Carter. Is Porty correct and he's gone no matter what? I think trading him at this point is a mistake. I would go as far as to say if the rumor on another blog about issues between him and Nash are correct I would move Nash over Carter.
You're making a huge stretch here. These are the exact words in the referenced blog

"Jeff Carter is more of an enigma, as he makes Rick Nash look like a chatterbox in terms of media exposure. Rumors about that Carter hates Columbus, that Nash hates Carter, etc. etc. The problem is that itís all speculation. "

I read this to mean the writer, Jeff Little is saying there are lots of comments made about Carter like: he HATES Columbus, is mad at the world, etc. and NONE of it is substantiated.

TaketheCannoli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:15 PM
  #304
Matt Foley
Meh
 
Matt Foley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Meh Meh
Posts: 2,151
vCash: 500
I don't think it would be unrealistic for Yakupov to have 18-18-36 by this point in his rookie year. Hopefully he'd have a better +/- of -23 since that would likely mean that the team is doing better.


Last edited by Matt Foley: 02-11-2012 at 03:21 PM.
Matt Foley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:27 PM
  #305
Doug19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Country: Aland Islands
Posts: 6,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Who said anything about him failing or not having an impact? What I said was, believing he'll come in and replace Nash's impact is unrealistic.
I guess you didn't say that, but I don't think it's unrealistic to expect him to come in and come very close to Nash's production. Lets not forget here that Nash doesn't exactly score a lot of points, I especially don't think he'd have any trouble matching Nash's output this year. All star games are really a doesn't matter type of thing, because most of Nash's all star appearances are because of 1 player per team in the game rather than him actually deserving to be there.

Doug19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #306
pete goegan
HFBoards Sponsor
 
pete goegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,380
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
I think if Nash brings in the needed trade assets, he wont have to "replace Nash". The whole team collectively will replace him and quite frankly, we'd be better off. Where have we gone with Nash? I'm not hating on him its a justified question. If Nash brings in a top 6 forward, top 4 dman, and a goalie, we wont have to worry about Nash not being here. Sure you hate to lose a goal scorer like him but I'm sick and tired of him loafing. Carter has brought more passion than Nash lately. I think its perfectly ok to think that Nash deserves to be gone more so than Carter.
The quote I was rebutting did, in fact, express the expectation that Yakupov would replace Nash's scoring. I disagree that Nash has not played with passion since the ASB, but that's very subjective. Frankly, I don't think either "deserve" to be gone. I often hear that Nash doesn't make players around him better, yet Brass, Vermette, Malholtra, to name a few, have all performed better and had career highs in points playing with him. I think his impact is often minimized, but being the only legitimate threat on the team means he attract a lot of attention when he's out there. Replacing him with lesser players who might (!), in aggregate, replace his numbers, won't replace that effect on the ice. As I've said before, I'd prefer Both Carter and Nash return; but, should one or both be moved, I'll be very angry if the Jackets do not clearly "win" the move or moves!

pete goegan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:32 PM
  #307
pete goegan
HFBoards Sponsor
 
pete goegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,380
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
I guess you didn't say that, but I don't think it's unrealistic to expect him to come in and come very close to Nash's production. Lets not forget here that Nash doesn't exactly score a lot of points, I especially don't think he'd have any trouble matching Nash's output this year. All star games are really a doesn't matter type of thing, because most of Nash's all star appearances are because of 1 player per team in the game rather than him actually deserving to be there.
Saying he will come in and match Nash's career worst year is not exactly the same thing you previously implied, nor is it a very high bar.

pete goegan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:46 PM
  #308
Matt Foley
Meh
 
Matt Foley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Meh Meh
Posts: 2,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Saying he will come in and match Nash's career worst year is not exactly the same thing you previously implied, nor is it a very high bar.
Well, at least we wouldn't have to pay Nail $7.8 million to try to approach Nash's average annual production.

Matt Foley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:47 PM
  #309
Robert
Foligno family
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: KY & Lime Lake NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,054
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Robert
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Saying he will come in and match Nash's career worst year is not exactly the same thing you previously implied, nor is it a very high bar.
Based on PPG thus far he is doing better this season than his first year, not that it matters just saying... (.67 vs .53)

Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:47 PM
  #310
Doug19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Country: Aland Islands
Posts: 6,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Saying he will come in and match Nash's career worst year is not exactly the same thing you previously implied, nor is it a very high bar.
Not this year, I'm talking every year. Taylor Hall managed to score 42 points in 65 games his rookie year and he was entering a situation that is so much worse than the Columbus situation.

I don't think it's unrealistic at all to think that Yakupov could come in and score 60 points with the people he will be playing with. RNH 35 in 40, Hall 42 in 65, Tavares 54 in 82 but went to an awful team, Stamkos 46 in 79 but got played wrong in the first half of season, Kane 72 in 82, and Crosby 102 in 81, and Ovechkin 106 in 81.

Yakupov is going to be in a better position than Hall and Tavares with line-mates, and hopefully won't be mismanaged in the first half like Stamkos. If Yakupov really is the #1 guy I just think that it is reasonable to expect him to hit 60 points, or even 55 point as the least amount. If Yakupov is the worst #1 forward prospect since Ovechkin then I understand if he doesn't hit 55 or 60 points, but I don't know where he would rank as a prospect next to those guys.

Doug19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:58 PM
  #311
Robert
Foligno family
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: KY & Lime Lake NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,054
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Robert
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
Not this year, I'm talking every year. Taylor Hall managed to score 42 points in 65 games his rookie year and he was entering a situation that is so much worse than the Columbus situation.

I don't think it's unrealistic at all to think that Yakupov could come in and score 60 points with the people he will be playing with. RNH 35 in 40, Hall 42 in 65, Tavares 54 in 82 but went to an awful team, Stamkos 46 in 79 but got played wrong in the first half of season, Kane 72 in 82, and Crosby 102 in 81, and Ovechkin 106 in 81.

Yakupov is going to be in a better position than Hall and Tavares with line-mates, and hopefully won't be mismanaged in the first half like Stamkos. If Yakupov really is the #1 guy I just think that it is reasonable to expect him to hit 60 points, or even 55 point as the least amount. If Yakupov is the worst #1 forward prospect since Ovechkin then I understand if he doesn't hit 55 or 60 points, but I don't know where he would rank as a prospect next to those guys.
Not disagreeing with you but often rookie seasons with no AHL experience at all are difficult even for the best, but as you say a lot depends who the rookie star (projected) is playing with..

(Carter vs Nash trade)

If the Jackets could acquire equal assets to Nash I don’t see how we can be worse off as a team, especially if those assets are spread out to fill several weaknesses in our roster.. The key with a Nash trade is getting at least or more of his value in return, which I think he can because Nash will put butts in the seats of any arena.., not just Columbus. His contract will be an issue.

I don't think a Carter trade will help the future CBJ as much as a Nash trade..


Last edited by Robert: 02-11-2012 at 04:03 PM.
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 04:28 PM
  #312
KeithBWhittington
Going North
 
KeithBWhittington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Brick by Brick
Country: Hungary
Posts: 10,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
(Carter vs Nash trade)

If the Jackets could acquire equal assets to Nash I don’t see how we can be worse off as a team, especially if those assets are spread out to fill several weaknesses in our roster.. The key with a Nash trade is getting at least or more of his value in return, which I think he can because Nash will put butts in the seats of any arena.., not just Columbus. His contract will be an issue.

I don't think a Carter trade will help the future CBJ as much as a Nash trade..
I no longer believe in additional "stock" being rewarded due to your activity in the community or your willingness to stay on a bad team or a bad organization.

Any trade involving Nash while Carter remained wouldn't be so much as making Carter the new "face" of the franchise as it would be to move this organization ahead by addressing a major weakness or two and addressing some depth and fully moving them away from the "expansion" tag that still hangs over this franchise, in my opinion.

Agree wholeheartedly with the last line. Finding wingers that can play with a top line center will be much easier than continuing to search for that player that can "click" with Rick Nash. And its rare that we are in the situation where we can't find players to play with a guy for 8 years and teams are frothing at the mouth to still pick him and his huge contract up.

The difficult part of any trade will be keeping it under wraps from the public until its complete though. This might be the first season that I can say, with faith, that Trading Nash might be an easier sell to the media than it would have been in past years (it still won't be to some fans though)


Last edited by KeithBWhittington: 02-11-2012 at 04:39 PM.
KeithBWhittington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 07:45 PM
  #313
Bruwinz37
Registered User
 
Bruwinz37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 27,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
I mean elite prospects and high picks and some damned good NHLers. I mentioned a few months ago that a return for Nash from Winnipeg would be Burmistrov, Enstrom, and a 1st-rounder. That same value holds true for Carter as well.
I came here wondering what CBJ fans would expect in a return for Carter. The above, to me, is a surprise. I am not sure based on production and injuries (not to mention lenght of the contract) that you can expect much of a return for Carter at this point. That is the unfortunate situation because if you deal Nash (and you would get a haul for him) you are then building your team around Carter and he may not be the player you want to build around.

Bruwinz37 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 08:25 PM
  #314
Sore Loser
Sorest of them all
 
Sore Loser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, WA.
Country: United States
Posts: 6,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
This is now so far afield as to be silly.

Sore Loser's original point was - Carter's playing better but the team is still losing, therefore he should be traded. I felt that logic was flawed, and posted such. SL countered by justifying the original position, and I pointed out why I thought that justification was also flawed.
To be fair, I may not have explained my side of things effectively. My point was nowhere near "Carter's playing better but the team is losing, therefore he should be traded" ... I'll stop trying to explain at this point, as it's clearly being taken out of proportion at this time.

@Palinka - as I just mentioned, my point seems to be misunderstood in this whole thing. As far as your response to my last post, I definitely appreciate the way you explained your side of things, and I know you and I see eye to eye on most things. You are absolutely correct in your assessments, as usual. At no point did I say that Jeff Carter was the entire issue with this team, nor did I mean to imply that. The whole season has been a disaster to this point, there's no debating that. As I said before, I won't attempt to carry on explaining my point, as my efforts continue to be picked apart piece by piece.

Alex Petrovic again though? OUCH!

Sorry for the confusion.

Sore Loser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 01:59 AM
  #315
Palinka
Registered User
 
Palinka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz37 View Post
I came here wondering what CBJ fans would expect in a return for Carter. The above, to me, is a surprise. I am not sure based on production and injuries (not to mention lenght of the contract) that you can expect much of a return for Carter at this point. That is the unfortunate situation because if you deal Nash (and you would get a haul for him) you are then building your team around Carter and he may not be the player you want to build around.
I don't think the length or term of the contract is detrimental. Even if the CBA is adjusted to the point where the salary cap plummets, the price on someone of Carter's clearly demonstrated skill set is still a bargain.

If Carter were a UFA this July, the offers for him both as a pending UFA and once free agency hit would be massive. Basically, the trade return would be higher than what Kovalchuk got and the contract he'd sign would be both long-term and very lucrative. The only people who are legitimately complaining about Carter's contract are either people who don't want him on their team or else bystanders who aren't involved and feel the need to offer their two cents. Both groups can be found in large numbers on the trade board.

Palinka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 02:09 AM
  #316
Palinka
Registered User
 
Palinka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
To be fair, I may not have explained my side of things effectively. My point was nowhere near "Carter's playing better but the team is losing, therefore he should be traded" ... I'll stop trying to explain at this point, as it's clearly being taken out of proportion at this time.

@Palinka - as I just mentioned, my point seems to be misunderstood in this whole thing. As far as your response to my last post, I definitely appreciate the way you explained your side of things, and I know you and I see eye to eye on most things. You are absolutely correct in your assessments, as usual. At no point did I say that Jeff Carter was the entire issue with this team, nor did I mean to imply that. The whole season has been a disaster to this point, there's no debating that. As I said before, I won't attempt to carry on explaining my point, as my efforts continue to be picked apart piece by piece.

Alex Petrovic again though? OUCH!

Sorry for the confusion.
Don't worry, I get the explanation. Basically it came down to the idea that Carter may just be a mismatched piece for whatever the team is trying to do, just as a player like a Pavel Bure or Marian Gaborik would be ill-suited for a choking defensive team, and Manny Malhotra or Luke Richardson would be ill-suited for a high-flying offensive team.

Even on that basis, which I believe is a correct deduction from your original point, I would both agree and disagree. Yes, player/system or player/style or player/locker room mismatches certainly exist. Yes, one of both sides is basically destined to fail if they exist. But I'll argue that the best teams in the NHL that contend are the ones that possess the most versatility. That's whether it's each player who is versatile or whether there's a collection of specialists who add up to a total of versatility.

Over the course of a season and in the playoffs, there are many different playing styles that are encountered. Most Stanley Cup champions are the ones who can go toe-to-toe against any style. The old saying that "offense wins games, defense wins championships" is derived from this. A team that relies purely on offense has no ability to adjust to a team that can stifle their attack; one who can both score and prevent goals will prevail. The ability to adjust within a series or within a game is vital. Washington hasn't won because they can't do this, Boston did win because they can.

I would suggest that someone like Jeff Carter, who can play a multitude of styles at a high level, is someone for whom there cannot be an on-ice mismatch with any team. He's too good in all facets of the game. If there are legitimate off-ice concerns, that's another story. But on the ice, that's someone who can do whatever you want.

And it just wouldn't be me if it didn't refer in some way to Petrovic.

Palinka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 06:20 AM
  #317
Robert
Foligno family
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: KY & Lime Lake NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,054
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Robert
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
Don't worry, I get the explanation. Basically it came down to the idea that Carter may just be a mismatched piece for whatever the team is trying to do, just as a player like a Pavel Bure or Marian Gaborik would be ill-suited for a choking defensive team, and Manny Malhotra or Luke Richardson would be ill-suited for a high-flying offensive team.

Even on that basis, which I believe is a correct deduction from your original point, I would both agree and disagree. Yes, player/system or player/style or player/locker room mismatches certainly exist. Yes, one of both sides is basically destined to fail if they exist. But I'll argue that the best teams in the NHL that contend are the ones that possess the most versatility. That's whether it's each player who is versatile or whether there's a collection of specialists who add up to a total of versatility.

Over the course of a season and in the playoffs, there are many different playing styles that are encountered. Most Stanley Cup champions are the ones who can go toe-to-toe against any style. The old saying that "offense wins games, defense wins championships" is derived from this. A team that relies purely on offense has no ability to adjust to a team that can stifle their attack; one who can both score and prevent goals will prevail. The ability to adjust within a series or within a game is vital. Washington hasn't won because they can't do this, Boston did win because they can.

I would suggest that someone like Jeff Carter, who can play a multitude of styles at a high level, is someone for whom there cannot be an on-ice mismatch with any team. He's too good in all facets of the game. If there are legitimate off-ice concerns, that's another story. But on the ice, that's someone who can do whatever you want.

And it just wouldn't be me if it didn't refer in some way to Petrovic.
GM's who want to succeed need to photo copy Detroit and live it...

Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 10:13 AM
  #318
Roadman
Moving On
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London OH
Country: United States
Posts: 2,592
vCash: 500
http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...or-carter.html

AP continues to beat the drum for a Carter trade, and now it seems he doesn't think he should have been acquired in the first place.

Is it just me or does it seem that more and more AP has an axe to grind with the CBJ? His "reporting" has more and more taken on the slant of advocacy for his own particular "vison" of the Blue Jackets. Perhaps he misses the good old days when Mgmt (GMDG) didn't place things quite so close to the vest. I for one find his rumor mongering and innuendo bordering on the some of the more fanatical of the Canadian Press.

I miss Tom Reed.

Roadman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 10:34 AM
  #319
Timeless Winter
Oceans of Grey
 
Timeless Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Country: United States
Posts: 16,138
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Timeless Winter
Did Carter do something to make Porty mad? or does Porty have some insight?? Kinda confusing.

Timeless Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 10:54 AM
  #320
IBleedUnionBlue
Registered User
 
IBleedUnionBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,138
vCash: 27775
AP hasnt reported anything different that hasnt been reported by other media sources. And I don't see him pushing his own vision, just questioning the lack of vision of the CBJ. Which has also been widely reported by other media sources.

IBleedUnionBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 10:58 AM
  #321
Skraut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Enter city here
Posts: 10,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Did Carter do something to make Porty mad? or does Porty have some insight?? Kinda confusing.
I think being a player not named Kevin Dineen or Zenon Konopka is enough to get on Porty's bad side...

Skraut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 10:59 AM
  #322
Roadman
Moving On
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London OH
Country: United States
Posts: 2,592
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBleedUnionBlue View Post
AP hasnt reported anything different that hasnt been reported by other media sources. And I don't see him pushing his own vision, just questioning the lack of vision of the CBJ. Which has also been widely reported by other media sources.

Quoting reports by Portzline. He sure seems to be the engine driving the train.

Roadman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 11:18 AM
  #323
1857 Howitzer
******* Linesman
 
1857 Howitzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ohio
Country: United States
Posts: 5,434
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
Quoting reports by Portzline. He sure seems to be the engine driving the train.
He's just butt hurt because Carter had the nerve to not talk to the media for a week. He is all so hopeful Carter does get traded so that he can write about what a failure the trade was for Howson and the team.

The thing that really bothers me about the crap reporting that cames from the Dispatch and the morons at 97.1 is that non hockey fans hear and read that crap and think its real. I had a guy at work (knows nothing about hockey) come up to me last we and say "man that really sucks that Nash hates being in Columbus now and wants traded." I did a double take and asked where he heard such a stupid thing. "That's what the common man and the torg were saying yeasterday."

EDIT: This does not mean I do not think there is a chance that Carter is traded. I hope hes not and I just don't believe Portzline has any inside info on the matter.


Last edited by 1857 Howitzer: 02-12-2012 at 12:03 PM.
1857 Howitzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 11:47 AM
  #324
Gagnefan924
Need Moar AmericanZ
 
Gagnefan924's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
He's just butt hurt because Carter had the nerve to not talk to the media for a week. He is all so hopeful Carter does get traded so that he can write about what a failure the trade was for Howson and the team.

The thing that really bothers me about the crap reporting that cames from the Dispatch and the morons at 97.1 is that non hockey fans hear and read that crap and think its real. I had a guy at work (knows nothing about hockey) come up to me last we and say "man that really sucks that Nash hates being in Columbus now and wants traded." I did a double take and asked where he heard such a stupid thing. "That's what the common man and the torg were saying yeasterday."
I really hope you are right.

Gagnefan924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 12:41 PM
  #325
CBJWennberg41
Me when I watch CBJ
 
CBJWennberg41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 16,196
vCash: 500
I don't believe any of the BS from that article. I believe we are shopping Carter, but not to the extent Porty says. And i am a Porty backer.

Hes on the Fire Howson bandwagon, hes trying to make him look as bad as possible for more people to join in. He was never a fan of the trade anyway. It sucks, because I think Carter could do good here and I still think he'll be traded.

CBJWennberg41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:17 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.