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Official Selling, Retooling, Rebuilding Only Thread

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Old
01-19-2012, 05:48 PM
  #301
MXD
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
I think we can safely write off this season.

We have a lot of unrestricted guys on this team at the end of the year and we may as well sell them off as I doubt any will be back next year, with the small exception of AKost.

Gill and Moen are guys a lot of teams will want as we get closer to the deadline. I think we could probably land a 2nd for each of them.

Then there are guys like Darche and Campoli. Teams may want to add them as depth for a playoff run. Neither is going to bring back a particularly good return for us though. I would imagine we would be looking at draft picks around the 4th round or prospects with Ryan White-like upside. May as well move them for whatever they can fetch because neither will be with us next season.

The real interesting guy if Andrei Kostitsyn. He has never been able to live up to his talents, but has shown he can be a decent 2nd line winger, and can go on bursts of really great play. He would be very attractive come close to the deadline for a lot of teams. He brings size, and the hot streak potential that any team in the playoffs would love to have. He should easily get us a first rounder. It won't be as high as the first rounder we drafted him with, but a first rounder around 20th overall is still nothing to sneeze at.

I would like to trade Kaberle as well, and truthfully he has played well enough for us to make him look more attractive to other teams right now, but the problem is the contract. If he was a free agent at the end of the year, or even just had one year left, he would be a pretty decent commodity this year, but that's not likely. This will hurt most when we see Spacek get moved at the deadline for something useful.
+ I think Darche is here next season, albeit as a 13th forward as opposed to the unofficial 12th.

+ The thing is A.Kost : I fail to see why a playoff-bound team would overpay for a guy like him, UNLESS a key player gets injured for the whole season. I fail to see the point to undersell him. If a good offer is there, then, by all means, trade him. But it shouldn't be considered a must.

+ If there's an offer for Kaberle = GET RID OF HIM.

+ Did you purposefully left Yannic Weber out of those discussions? It's not that I hate him -- but he might actually fetch something that will help us rebuild even more.

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01-19-2012, 05:52 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
+ I think Darche is here next season, albeit as a 13th forward as opposed to the unofficial 12th.

+ The thing is A.Kost : I fail to see why a playoff-bound team would overpay for a guy like him, UNLESS a key player gets injured for the whole season. I fail to see the point to undersell him. If a good offer is there, then, by all means, trade him. But it shouldn't be considered a must.

+ If there's an offer for Kaberle = GET RID OF HIM.

+ Did you purposefully left Yannic Weber out of those discussions? It's not that I hate him -- but he might actually fetch something that will help us rebuild even more.
rebuild even more ? (unless for an amazing offer) you dont trade your 22/23 years old players unless they clearly showed they're not NHL material...

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01-19-2012, 05:56 PM
  #303
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I think we should look at trading anyone who isn't named Subban or Price.

Figure out this team's identity. Get rid off this bozo management. Get a high draft pic. Sign free agents that fit into the organization and build a balanced team.

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01-19-2012, 05:57 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
I think we should look at trading anyone who isn't named Subban or Price.

Figure out this team's identity. Get rid off this bozo management. Get a high draft pic. Sign free agents that fit into the organization and build a balanced team.
I don't see the logic of trading anybody not named Subban or Price. If you don't surround them with anything other than rookies and UFA's they won't be here long or will learn to accept losing and be useless.

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01-19-2012, 05:59 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I don't see the logic of trading anybody not named Subban or Price. If you don't surround them with anything other than rookies and UFA's they won't be here long or will learn to accept losing and be useless.
You have to identify your core players. The ones you feel you can win with. Sure we have other players that contribute: Cole, Patches, DD, etc... But are they necessary to the Habs winning a SC?

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01-19-2012, 06:04 PM
  #306
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rebuild even more ? (unless for an amazing offer) you dont trade your 22/23 years old players unless they clearly showed they're not NHL material...
If Yannic Weber is the difference between a 2nd rounder and the 1st rounder in a deal (let's say a MID-DRAFT pick, for discussion's sake), well, you make the deal or you should be fired and never be offered any kind of position with some kind of decisionnal powers.

Then again, I'm one of the few who wants the team to draft a D-Men in the next draft, so this probably explains that.

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01-19-2012, 06:10 PM
  #307
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if you move Weber it's because you feel Diaz is a better fit. And if you move Weber to move up a 2nd to a 1st, that pick has to be used for a Dman. But in this draft a late round 1st dman will be a pretty solid/safe pick.

But, I am one who feels we keep Weber. I feel he is going to be a solid 2nd pairing

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01-19-2012, 06:14 PM
  #308
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For whatever reason, I can't quote your post...?!?!?

Well... I meant "a thrown-in that changes a 2nd to a 1st" in the trade. Or whatever... Mid-rounder, it becomes

The kind of pick that you'd pick Nick Ebert or Cody Ceci with it.

Then, the question is : Do you really think Ceci and Ebert won't be better than Weber? One of them -- Ceci -- is probably already superior to Weber!! -- not to mention quite a few inches taller and bigger.

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01-19-2012, 06:27 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
+ I think Darche is here next season, albeit as a 13th forward as opposed to the unofficial 12th.

+ The thing is A.Kost : I fail to see why a playoff-bound team would overpay for a guy like him, UNLESS a key player gets injured for the whole season. I fail to see the point to undersell him. If a good offer is there, then, by all means, trade him. But it shouldn't be considered a must.

+ If there's an offer for Kaberle = GET RID OF HIM.

+ Did you purposefully left Yannic Weber out of those discussions? It's not that I hate him -- but he might actually fetch something that will help us rebuild even more.
with the exception of Kaberle I just focussed on the free agents. There's no rush to move Weber. He can be traded during the off-season if there are some good offers.

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01-19-2012, 06:29 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
I think we should look at trading anyone who isn't named Subban or Price.

Figure out this team's identity. Get rid off this bozo management. Get a high draft pic. Sign free agents that fit into the organization and build a balanced team.
team would be so bad... first thing these two would do at 27 (in 3 years only for Price) is take the first plane out of town and sign elsewhere for less money...




besides... 22 yo Eller, 23 yo Patches, 23 yo Weber...

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01-19-2012, 06:30 PM
  #311
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I think it's a mix of Retooling and Selling.....

The next three games are key and anything short of a REGULATION win vs Pitt and Tor seriously hurts.
Then Montreal gets Detroit.

I think if Montreal fails to gain 4-5 points in those three games they will be far enough out that selling guys like Gill Moen Kostitsyn Campoli Weber is not out of the question.

I think Montreal can get some decent draft picks for Moen and Gill + could maybe even snag a guy like Bickell from Chicago.

Ryan White is almost ready to play again and he's been missed if you ask me.

Montreal has some good youngish players with solid veteran leadership

If by some miracle they can move Gomez and Kaberle that would be sweet.

Eller
Desharnais
Plekanec
Subban
Gorges
Price
Pacioretty
Cole
Bourque
White
Blunden
Gionta

For me the problem is that there is no room for Eller at the moment because hr's better then a third line C (needs quality ice time with quality players) but he's not better the PLekanec yet. I wouldn't be horribly upset if Montreal traded Plekanec for either another big Skilled Scoring winger or a top notch C.

Something like Plekanec and Eller for Getzlaf! It's not enough but it's definitely gets Anaheim to listen.
Trade Moen and Weber for Bickell to play on the third / fourth line LW (6'4 233)
Re-sign AK a similar money (2nd line LW)



Then you have a real number one C and some serious size up front.

Pacioretty Getzlaf Cole
AK Desharnais Bourque
Bickell ???? Gionta
Blunden ???? ????


??? = Free Agent


Last edited by Mats NAslund: 01-19-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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01-19-2012, 06:33 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
with the exception of Kaberle I just focussed on the free agents. There's no rush to move Weber. He can be traded during the off-season if there are some good offers.
Indeed, no need to rush him.

But if you can get something really interesting for him.... You do it, no questions asked.

In my "case", and especially if Cody Ceci is available, I don't even hesitate.

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01-19-2012, 06:48 PM
  #313
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Cody Ceci will be avail after 7.
The Habs will be able to get him for sure.

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01-19-2012, 07:05 PM
  #314
Mats NAslund
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Huge fan of CECI, I watch almost all of the 67's home games here in Ottawa.
Love his game!

Primary guys I would love to move are Kaberle and Gomez

AK Moen Gill and Campoli are free agents so this is their last year - might as well try and cash out on them.

Plekanec - If the deal is right (Getzlaf or a Bobby Ryan) I wouldn't be too upset. Packaged with AK and \ or Eller and I'm sure Anaheim listens.

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01-19-2012, 07:06 PM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
I think we should look at trading anyone who isn't named Subban or Price.

Figure out this team's identity. Get rid off this bozo management. Get a high draft pic. Sign free agents that fit into the organization and build a balanced team.
If you have such a lack of patience with young player's devellopment that you think they should all be at Price-Subban level at 22-23 year old, I don't think a rebuild is what you're looking for. And teams build in free agency usually fails.

I am all for a retool since I think we have a pretty good core in place and I thought this season might have been a blessing in disguise since it could help us strenghtening that score for the future. And I am all for the high pick since if we have to suck anyway might as well suck all the way. But god this place is gonna be so annoying while we're retooling.

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01-19-2012, 07:08 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
For whatever reason, I can't quote your post...?!?!?

Well... I meant "a thrown-in that changes a 2nd to a 1st" in the trade. Or whatever... Mid-rounder, it becomes

The kind of pick that you'd pick Nick Ebert or Cody Ceci with it.

Then, the question is : Do you really think Ceci and Ebert won't be better than Weber? One of them -- Ceci -- is probably already superior to Weber!! -- not to mention quite a few inches taller and bigger.
I am not arguing that at all. But who plays on the blueline next year? And if AK is moved for a 1st, could we not get that later round dman

Pouliot, Ceci are two examples of dmen in the 2nd half of the 1st rd they can go for

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01-19-2012, 07:13 PM
  #317
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Cody Ceci will be avail after 7.
The Habs will be able to get him for sure.
I'd consider Ceci a must-pick at 15, actually.

I'd pick him before, but at 15, it's the kind of guy that you trade up for, especially if you didn't pick a D-Men before.

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01-19-2012, 07:18 PM
  #318
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I am not arguing that at all. But who plays on the blueline next year? And if AK is moved for a 1st, could we not get that later round dman

Pouliot, Ceci are two examples of dmen in the 2nd half of the 1st rd they can go for
Give Ceci a shot?

Next season?

Subban, Markov, Gorges, Diaz, Emelin.

Then Kaberle if he isn't moved.

Beaulieu isn't ready and Tinordi won't be ready.

St-Denis can play competent hockey. There could be some cheap UFA-a-la-Woywitka that could be available to round up the corps.

Depending on the objectives for next year. Actually, if we ever draft Ceci, I could see him, Tinordi and Beaulieu be simultaneously ready in 13-14.

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01-19-2012, 08:59 PM
  #319
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I don't see the logic of trading anybody not named Subban or Price. If you don't surround them with anything other than rookies and UFA's they won't be here long or will learn to accept losing and be useless.
Like Yzerman, Lemieux and Sakic?

It's fine to keep some vets, but not at the expense of getting premier young talent. Look at PK, Hal Gill was his mentor... you don't need to keep guys who have trade value.

Let guys like Gorges play the role of vet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
You have to identify your core players. The ones you feel you can win with. Sure we have other players that contribute: Cole, Patches, DD, etc... But are they necessary to the Habs winning a SC?
You're right, they aren't. And it's unlikely that if we ever do put together a contender that guys like Cole and Pleks will be gone by then anyway. Might as well sell high and get a good return.

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01-19-2012, 09:04 PM
  #320
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Like Yzerman, Lemieux and Sakic?

It's fine to keep some vets, but not at the expense of getting premier young talent. Look at PK, Hal Gill was his mentor... you don't need to keep guys who have trade value.

Let guys like Gorges play the role of vet.

You're right, they aren't. And it's unlikely that if we ever do put together a contender that guys like Cole and Pleks will be gone by then anyway. Might as well sell high and get a good return.
I think he meant that there is no logic in trading any of our young players and there really isn't. Just PK and Price. That makes no sense since we have other good young pieces.

Edit: Why the hell would we trade Pacioretty?????

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01-19-2012, 09:07 PM
  #321
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I think he meant that there is no logic in trading any of our young players and there really isn't. Just PK and Price. That makes no sense since we have other good young pieces.
I quoted two different guys. One was arguing that we shouldn't trade core vets because they need to stay and be mentors. I think that's a silly argument as we have other vets who can do that job. Mentors mean nothing if they don't have elite prospects to mentor in the first place.

The other poster I think I agreed with. He seems to be suggesting that those core vets won't be part of a future cup run anyway and I agree with him. Maybe I misread his post but that's what he seemed to be saying anyway.

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01-19-2012, 09:41 PM
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I quoted two different guys. One was arguing that we shouldn't trade core vets because they need to stay and be mentors. I think that's a silly argument as we have other vets who can do that job. Mentors mean nothing if they don't have elite prospects to mentor in the first place.

The other poster I think I agreed with. He seems to be suggesting that those core vets won't be part of a future cup run anyway and I agree with him. Maybe I misread his post but that's what he seemed to be saying anyway.
I think you need vets but not just for mentoring. Like I said, you trade Plek you don't have a choice but to sign a shutdown center to play against top lines. For example the Oilers kid look awesome and everything (the team less so ) but they all gat soft minutes and tons of Ozone faceoffs. For the D it's easier since Subban can already play against first liners so no need to protect him from tough opposition.

And I was talking about that.
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
You have to identify your core players. The ones you feel you can win with. Sure we have other players that contribute: Cole, Patches, DD, etc... But are they necessary to the Habs winning a SC?
That made no sense, that's like saying Is Beaulieu necessary to the habs winning a cup? Nope. Trade his ass.

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01-19-2012, 09:44 PM
  #323
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Our defense isn't the problem. We're still one of the best teams in the conference at limiting the other team's goals. Yes, Diaz and Emelin had a steep learning curve at first, plus our vets were injured. But the young guys have stepped up and played well, and Gorges, PK (even with his stupid gaffes) and even Kabs have kept our goals-against very low, with Weber as a good 6th or 7th. I'd love one more shutdown defenseman who can clear bodies away from the net, but I'm no longer worried about our D.

Our massive, glaring problem is scoring goals. We have zero scoring depth. A game like Sunday's against New York was great to watch because one line got hot. But if our hot line cools off, we have no one to carry our offence over the other three lines. Sure, we can create chances. Lots of pretty set-ups and nice passes. But the great majority of our shots are desperate hail-Marys that end up thumping harmlessly off the goalie's chest. We have a thousand examples of "So close", but very few examples of "He picked the corner!". This is not bad luck, it's bad shooting. These days, scoring happens more and more in close, which is where Habs have feared to tread. No more. If we ever intend on becoming a winner, our template must move towards the Cole/DD/Patches model -- a mix of strength, aggressiveness and speed. They're a solid 2nd line. Pleks or Eller perhaps just need Bourque to become the trigger man on a solid 3rd line. But we need a legit 1st line, or we need a legit 2B line! The chances of getting a high-scoring sniper are slim, but a couple of 25-goal scorers is within the realm of possibility, and would give us the ability to launch a sustained attack with two or three lines creating real scoring chances.

I'd consider this to be a 'building-up' rather than a 'rebuild'. Which, if I had to guess, is what management will end up trying to do. Frankly, I don't see any logic in saying we can't win a Cup with Pleks or Cole. Of course we can. In fact, our team of smurfs was assembled partly because they DID help their team win a Cup. It all depends on who else is playing with them.


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01-19-2012, 09:48 PM
  #324
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I think you need vets but not just for mentoring. Like I said, you trade Plek you don't have a choice but to sign a shutdown center to play against top lines. For example the Oilers kid look awesome and everything (the team less so ) but they all gat soft minutes and tons of Ozone faceoffs. For the D it's easier since Subban can already play against first liners so no need to protect him from tough opposition.

And I was talking about that.
Why do we need to sign anyone? Why can't we just play Gomez in that role? Why can't we use the players we already have? Enough with the quick fixes. Just play what we've got and go from there. If it becomes too much for our players then we can sign or trade for some cheap vet. If you're going to rebuild... DO IT. All the way. You don't get one pick and declare yourself rebuilt, it doesn't work that way. It's going to take a few years man.

If Pleks can get a return that can help us win a cup down the road then you make the trade. We need elite players and haven't had one for eons. Until we get those kinds of players we aren't likely to win a cup.

That doesn't mean you dump Pleks for nothing or give him away but yes, I'd definitely look at dealing him because he's the kind of player other teams want.
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Edit: Why the hell would we trade Pacioretty?????
?

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01-19-2012, 09:55 PM
  #325
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Why do we need to sign anyone? Why can't we just play Gomez in that role? Why can't we use the players we already have?

If Pleks can get a return that can help us win a cup down the road then you make the trade. We need elite players and haven't had one for eons. Until we get those kinds of players we aren't likely to win a cup.

That doesn't mean you dump Pleks for nothing or give him away but yes, I'd definitely look at dealing him because he's the kind of player other teams want.

?
Yeah playing Gomez in that role would make sense but he needs to be played in that role and not against 4th line comps.

And the Pacioretty thing is because the person you quoted wondered if Pacioretty was nessecary to winning a SC. I mean technically no player is a nessecity to winning a SC since no player has ever been on every SC winning team right? But rebuild doesn't=trading 22 year old

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