well, that's the REALITY (as the thread title suggests), you have to be fu***** bad to be the worst team in the league.
I wonder what this forum would be like if the Habs were ever number 1 pick bad.
I mean this season there's very few things to be proud of. But I've been to a good number of Islanders home games over the past few years - there's bad hockey, and then there's that.
I wonder what this forum would be like if the Habs were ever number 1 pick bad.
I mean this season there's very few things to be proud of. But I've been to a good number of Islanders home games over the past few years - there's bad hockey, and then there's that.
this season being no 1 worst would be the best thing to happen to this org for some time much rather pick no.1 than 8th or 9th
Sadly, "selling" and through that "rebuilding". Tonight's effort was putrid!
I can see Campoli, Gill, Kaberle, Weber, Gomez, Moen, Kostitsyn leaving town (if any takers)
I am not ever thinking we 'Tank" as we "won't".
Price-Gorges-Subban-Emelin-Diaz-Plecks-Pacs-Cole-Bourque-Deharnais-Eller-White are "somewhat ""untouchable"""....let the dust settle over the next month - see where we are and make adjustments from there - we are sellers!
Go Habs Go!!
Amazing someone that sees the exact players the same way,any draft choices for those guys will be better in the long run for the team.I would add Gionta to the trade list we already have Desharnais and Gallagher in the system.Moen,AK and Gionta should get some takers,I hope the picks are for next yrs.2013 draft probably get higher picks that way.
I don't disagree with your post, but assuming we DON'T get that star, I wouldn't spend the money anyways(see 2009) on long term contracts so we at least have the flexibility to be agressive in 2013.
After Parise and Suter the 2012 crop gets pretty thin. I may or may not be interested in Semin, Ruttu would be ok but we have guys like him already, we need more creativity in the top 6.
If we don't get that star....we're still ahead by getting rid of the dead wood. Probably better off with a couple 60 point guys then one 100 point guy anyway....that way if one gets injured we still have someone to go to.
Reality: the rebuild or retool will not be complete by the start of next season. These things take a while.
My dream scenario would be for the Habs to unload 1-2 UFAs at the TDL (or all 3 for max dreaming) for 2nd or 3rd round picks. We then end up being a lottery team. Gomez gets buried, and the key to this dream is unloading Kaberle. It will be hard, and the return will suck (we only gave up Spacek, so wtv). With all this cap space, the GM will need to resign Subban and Price. The next priority will be the blueline. The idea here is to assume that Markov will not play. Hoping for a healthy Markov is like hoping for a healthy DiPietro. If the Habs can add one 5-6th stay at home D and a D stud, the team will be vastly improved. This assumes that Weber and Diaz won't be back, or maybe one of them will be kept as a 7th or 8th. Add some physical bottom 6 forwards and we are set for the usual 8th place target.
The following year, with a solid Price and a great blueline, top UFA forwards will give Montreal a serious look! The team is offensively inapt, but I think the problems start from the back end. This defense is simply awful. Attracting talent is impossible with the current state of our blueline.
I think it's time to re-build and win the cup by 2015 to 2017 latest, I say that because we still have decent components and are half way there.
Players to build around:
As the poster above me mentioned, age becomes a factor for the current older guys. If our goal is to hit stride in four years, players on that future team should be no older than late 20s right now. That gives us a core to build upon -- Price / Emelin, Gorges, Subban and Diaz / Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, with Plekanec in his early 30s by then. Based on that, our D looks good, but we have zero scoring depth. That's where our focus needs to be as we build a future winner.
in 2015/17, they will be 35+... you dont "build around" such players...
I'm not sure he was saying you "build around" them..the building will hopefully be done by then, and they may still be there to provide veteran leadership. Pretty much every successful team has some 35+ veterans on it.... Detroit always has some 35+ guys.
I'm not sure he was saying you "build around" them..the building will hopefully be done by then, and they may still be there to provide veteran leadership. Pretty much every successful team has some 35+ veterans on it.... Detroit always has some 35+ guys.
I'm not sure he was saying you "build around" them..the building will hopefully be done by then, and they may still be there to provide veteran leadership. Pretty much every successful team has some 35+ veterans on it.... Detroit always has some 35+ guys.
I have a few questions for you if you don't mind. I remember Timmins being angry that we gave up Ryan McDonagh in the Scott Gomez deal. Do you know if the organisation now consult him before pulling the trigger on any deal involving any prospects or young players? Was he the one who recommended Holland? Do you have an idea of who he likes for the upcoming draft? And do you think Timmins would have any interest in a GM position with the Canadiens?
Some of you, apparently opposed to the "rebuild", just don't seem to get the essence of the idea.
At the beginning of the season, most people had the Habs pictured in the playoffs, or very close to it, at least. What does it tell us? Simply that our team is currently underachieving. We don't need a perpetual rebuild and 4 straight years of suckage, and I'm saying this to both the "pros" and the "anti" rebuild. We already have a solid base of veterans and we do have some key young guys within our organization.
Now, let's compare ourselves with the Oilers, shall we. We have a franchise goalie, 24 years old, that we're about to lock up on a long term contract. That's settled. On the Oilers side, well, they are currently going with Dubnyk and Khabibulin. Basically, they are still looking for that franchise goalie up to this day, and whether it goes by the draft or not, they lack an important piece of the puzzle, while we, Habs fans, currently got it. Now, I'm not saying top goalies are a must to win the cup, we saw that with the Wings in 08 and the Hawks in 10, but it certainly helps though, as we saw with the B's in 11.
On the defense, I really think we shouldn't be concerned with that. We have a bunch of young kids waiting to come into the big league, some of them being first rounders (Beaulieu, Tinordi). To that, we have some depth guys that could greatly improve over the years, and while we might not need them, they are good assets in trades (Diaz, Weber, Ellis, to a lesser extent St-Denis and Nash). I haven't even talked about our roster players yet. We have Subban, who could become the next superstar in this league, Emelin, who's already a good bottom pairing guy to have, might turn out into a top 4 defenseman, Gorges, an excellent stay-at-home, possibly future captain and reliable top 4 defenseman. Than, there's Markov, who should play next year. I don't know how his knee issues will turn out, but when this guy is healthy, everybody knows on this board how he can run a powerplay by himself. He's a legit N.1 defenseman, top 10 in the league when healthy. Now let's just hope he'll ever be healthy again. I won't mention Kaberle and Gill, as I don't think they deserve to be. They should be gone by the coming off-season, although I could see Kaberle being back if Markov's health issues keep on going.
That leaves us with 3 key pieces already in place for next year, another possible N.1 defenseman coming back from an injury next season and a bunch of youngsters waiting to jump permanently into the big league. Now imagine if we manage to sign a guy like Sutter. The Habs' D suddenly becomes one of the best corps in the NHL. Now, we may or may not sign Sutter this summer, but if we don't, there are other viable options out there that could bring tremendous help on the back-end, like Beauchemin, Gleason, Colaiacovo or Dennis Wideman, for example. Any of those guys could give us some interesting depth on our defense and make guys like Weber or Diaz expendable, which may give us a decent return in a trade.
Oilers? Their defense situation is much worse than ours, although they have some youngsters coming, we won't see them in the NHL until 2014 for the most part while we can already count on many young guys, like Subban, Emelin, Weber and Diaz. Add to that our veterans, some intelligent signings and we're set.
As for the forward group, I think we can get some decent picks out of Kostitsyn and Moen. Say we bury Gomez in the minors this off-season and we call-up Leblanc and give him some decent ice-time on the third line, I see our line-up looking like this for the upcoming season:
Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta
Cole - Desharnais - Maxpac
??? - Eller - Leblanc
??? - White - ???
In a perfect world, we would be able to draft Grigorenko and give him a strictly offensive role in the NHL in his first season, on the first line. We could end up with a guy like Galchenyuk as well, but I think he would need at least another year of junior to be ready, considering he lost most of his 17 years old season due to injuries. The thing is, out of this draft, if the Habs keep going on the "loose it all" route, Grigorenko, Yakupov and Forsberg are real possibilities for us. We could finally find our dominant forward, after all these years. With some good signings, I think we could go a long way next season, as a defense-first team, unless our 1st round pick can provide some offense as a 18 years old (Grigorenko!). If not, we will most likely keep on going with the boring type of hockey, but we can win games that way, we've seen it last year.
However, if we keep on loosing next year, I'd consider shopping guys like Gionta and Desharnais, the latter who might have gained some interesting value this past season. It would be the perfect time to part ways with Gionta and he could easily fetch a first rounder at the deadline, and if we draft Grigorenko or Galchenyuk, one of Desharnais or Eller have to go, and I rather keep the big, two-way center over the one dimensional playmaker that is Desharnais. However, this is a last resort option, because I really don't think we will be a lottery team 2 seasons in a row. Hell, we shouldn't even be a lottery team at the moment. If we can sign some true grit for the 4th line this off-season, and provide some interesting wingers to Eller, we could have a playoff team next season. I really see our rebuild process as something in the same mold as the post-lockout Flyers, whom, after one fluke year in which they drafted JVR, quickly came back on top with some smart signings and trading. We're not Oilers or Columbus bad. We are currently experiencing a fluke year, and we have to get the best out of it. I really don't see any advantage in a late season push to end up 9th and draft yet another marginal player in the mid first round. This is our chance to get our franchise forward.
For all the people in the BELIEVE thread, we need to look at the facts objectively. We are currently sitting at the 13th rank in the East with 46 game played, only 2 points ahead of the Canes, dead last in the conference. In order to get into the playoffs, we need to do exponentially better than any of those teams, who currently have a 10+ points lead on us in the standings: Florida, Toronto, Winnipeg. Out of the next 36 games, we would need to win at least 26 of them (and that is a minimum) to get into the playoffs, which is a 72,2% winning pace. No team is currently playing at that rate in the league, not even the Bruins, or the Hawks, or the Wings, but some of you believe our Habs can do it? At best, we might end up with a 11' Devils situation. We may not be as lucky as them in the draft though. They won the lottery and went up 5 positions in the draft (If I'm not mistaken) to take Larsson. Now, It's our choice to either foolishly try to make a late season push through band-aid trades, or sell our upcoming UFA's, build up a decent farm team, and go from there for years to come.
To summarize, we are set in net, we are nearly set on defense, and with the upcoming draft, we might be set on offense. I'll say it again: a 3 or 4 years rebuild is out of question. We only need to take advantage of a bad situation, do the smart moves this summer, and we will be a playoffs team next year, possibly a contender in the next few years if we can draft the right guys. By no mean we're starting to build from zero, the way the Oilers did.
i think we need to trade plekanec
sadly it's the only way we can get taht big center we'll need
a package with him and a 1st might do it.
If PG can get a big talented center under 28-29 whose proven for a package with pleky you do it
his PK minutes can be replaced next year by a pk specialist 3rd-4th liner
Obviously you go get someone thats at a ppg pace or near it every year and is big and strong, not a lateral move
We need a #1 center, and pleky isnt that #1...he is an elite #2 though
not to take anything away from him, but the problem is he's the only one with any value that makes sense...
cant trade pk or price cause that would leave bigger wholes to fill and those are the only other 2 players that have any real value right now
i think we need to trade plekanec
sadly it's the only way we can get taht big center we'll need
a package with him and a 1st might do it.
If PG can get a big talented center under 28-29 whose proven for a package with pleky you do it
his PK minutes can be replaced next year by a pk specialist 3rd-4th liner
Obviously you go get someone thats at a ppg pace or near it every year and is big and strong, not a lateral move
We need a #1 center, and pleky isnt that #1...he is an elite #2 though
not to take anything away from him, but the problem is he's the only one with any value that makes sense...
cant trade pk or price cause that would leave bigger wholes to fill and those are the only other 2 players that have any real value right now
Problem with this is, LOTS of people here seems to think we'll get Grigorenko at the draft (they're daydreaming but hey, that's their prerogative)...
and huh, considering this thread is about tanking and rebuilding, how does trading our 1st (should be a good pick) makes any sense ?
Problem with this is, LOTS of people here seems to think we'll get Grigorenko at the draft (they're daydreaming but hey, that's their prerogative)...
and huh, considering this thread is about tanking and rebuilding, how does trading our 1st (should be a good pick) makes any sense ?
because i dont think we're actually going to finish as a lottery team cause this team is too "proud"....teams under us will tank we wont sadly and getting a #1 pick in the top 10 thats not a top #3 might not pan out
i'd rather trade a #1 pick for a proven young big center that can make the rebuild alot easier and quicker then drafting a player and hoping they can help you rebuild in a couple of years.
there's no player in this draft that can get in the lineup and play right away
even if that was the case, if we get a prospect that a big center that could play right away we'd still need to trade a center cause there would be a backlog
There's different levels of retooling/rebuilding...
For example, we can take advantage of our situation to get a solid player at the next draft, load up on picks and prospects... If at a certain point in the near future we feel the club's getting somewhere we can load up on UFAs, pick up some players who hurt other teams' cap and take a run at the playoffs.
The eternal rebuilds are usually teams that don't have the finances to always spend to the cap. We're closer to Philadelphia's situation than Columbus'.
There's different levels of retooling/rebuilding...
For example, we can take advantage of our situation to get a solid player at the next draft, load up on picks and prospects... If at a certain point in the near future we feel the club's getting somewhere we can load up on UFAs, pick up some players who hurt other teams' cap and take a run at the playoffs.
The eternal rebuilds are usually teams that don't have the finances to always spend to the cap. We're closer to Philadelphia's situation than Columbus'.
We're kind of in between.
We have the resources and finances but nobody really wants to come here. That's part of the reason why we lure the leftover type players that we do. The top free agents want nothing to do with us. Bad teams, media circus, french language and taxes. It keeps FAs who are in demand away and that's why we wind up with the FAs that we do.
I believe that would change if we managed to build a winning team however. Players WILL come here if they think we can win. There's no better place to play than in Montreal when the team is doing well. When it's not...
