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Old
01-18-2012, 11:01 PM
  #1
omglolnub
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Bob McKenzie on NHL.com

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...id=DL|NHL|home

not sure how to embed it, but an interesting video...

like McKenzie says, "the plethora of underachieving or overpaid players not earning their contracts is an indictment of the general manager and/or the head coach."

Fire Regier, fire Ruff. Rebuild. It's just a matter of when...

Any other thoughts on the video though, folks?

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01-18-2012, 11:15 PM
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Boom. Headshot.

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01-18-2012, 11:16 PM
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ZZamboni
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I didn't mind that video and analysis. Regier is going to take a bath when he moves Roy and Stafford unless they start pouring in the goals and assists.

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01-18-2012, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
I didn't mind that video and analysis. Regier is going to take a bath when he moves Roy and Stafford unless they start pouring in the goals and assists.
Probably so but freeing that money up and getting those guys off this team will probably be well worth that bath in the long run.

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01-18-2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Probably so but freeing that money up and getting those guys off this team will probably be well worth that bath in the long run.
Yea, you're probably right.

Such a shame too. But so goes professional sports.

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01-18-2012, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Probably so but freeing that money up and getting those guys off this team will probably be well worth that bath in the long run.
And this is where the concept of "addition by subtraction" comes from. Yes, the roster immediately gets competitively worse in those trades (either for futures or for scraps in a fleecing), but the fact that those people are no longer there makes the team better immediately as a culture and in the long run when their salary spaces are eventually used up by players that contribute, play hard, give a ****, etc.

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01-18-2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by omglolnub View Post
And this is where the concept of "addition by subtraction" comes from. Yes, the roster immediately gets competitively worse in those trades (either for futures or for scraps in a fleecing), but the fact that those people are no longer there makes the team better immediately as a culture and in the long run when their salary spaces are eventually used up by players that contribute, play hard, give a ****, etc.
Just like subtracting Connolly was going to be addition by subtraction, right? I don't think we were winning anything of importance with Connolly on the team, but it's a tough argument to make that we're better off without him. We're not going to be better just by getting rid of Roy and Stafford. It's not going to happen. If you want to deal them, fine, but be straight with yourself and admit that it'd be to rebuild, not to add by subtracting.

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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Probably so but freeing that money up and getting those guys off this team will probably be well worth that bath in the long run.
Orrrr, we could be like every other ****ing organization in the NHL and fire the coach rather than trading 1/3 of the forward corps, and then see who can turn it around from there. I bet CBJ is happy they didn't trade Brassard for cents on the dollar right about now. If those guys fail to turn it around, deal them. But get Ruff away from these guys first. It boggles my mind how many people would rather trade the team than fire the coach. Why is Ruff such a sacred cow?!

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01-18-2012, 11:34 PM
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Regier either has to make some trades (and if they take a bath so be it) or Ruff needs to go. One of these things needs to happen.

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01-18-2012, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Just like subtracting Connolly was going to be addition by subtraction, right? I don't think we were winning anything of importance with Connolly on the team, but it's a tough argument to make that we're better off without him. We're not going to be better just by getting rid of Roy and Stafford. It's not going to happen. If you want to deal them, fine, but be straight with yourself and admit that it'd be to rebuild, not to add by subtracting.



Orrrr, we could be like every other ****ing organization in the NHL and fire the coach rather than trading 1/3 of the forward corps, and then see who can turn it around from there. I bet CBJ is happy they didn't trade Brassard for cents on the dollar right about now. If those guys fail to turn it around, deal them. But get Ruff away from these guys first. It boggles my mind how many people would rather trade the team than fire the coach. Why is Ruff such a sacred cow?!
I commented on ZZamboni's comment. Lindy Ruff wasn't even mentioned, though there are plenty of Lindy Ruff threads to comment on his status.

But, since you brought Ruff into the equation, I would like to see him jettisoned.....along with Roy and Stafford.

However,I suppose if Ruff is the problem with Stafford and Roy he should be credited for Pominville's and Vanek's success this season?

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01-18-2012, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
I commented on ZZamboni's comment. Lindy Ruff wasn't even mentioned, though there are plenty of Lindy Ruff threads to comment on his status.

But, since you brought Ruff into the equation, I would like to see him jettisoned.....along with Roy and Stafford.

However,I suppose if Ruff is the problem with Stafford and Roy he should be credited for Pominville's and Vanek's success this season?
I don't care about individuals' numbers. The team, on the whole, sucks. Anyone with eyes can see that. When that happens, the coach gets canned. I'm not keeping Lindy Ruff because Pominville and Vanek have put up good numbers. This team's execution is beyond awful right now.

-Start with a coaching change.
-If there's still dead weight, and there will be, get rid of it.

I just find it borderline hilarious that everyone wants cap space right now. For what? So we can throw dumb money at B-list UFAs like Leino and Ehrhoff? So that we can pretend like we have a prayer at getting players like Parise or Suter to come to our rebuilding organization in an undesirable city? Yay for cap space to blow on players with warts who'll only sign here for ridiculous term or money. Shoot me in the face.

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01-18-2012, 11:55 PM
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I did get a laugh out of how he opened and ended the segment: "The folks in Buffalo are not going to want to hear this..." and "...to be honest, I'm not holding my breath, just yet."

Also, this was the segment I cited yesterday in the first trade proposal thread. I caught the gist of it.
Quote:
I missed the beginning of his segment, but Bob McKenzie was just on NHL Network not too long ago probably preaching something similar. When I flipped to the channel, he was going through our underachieving forwards and their remaining contract terms (saw Roy, Stafford, Leino, Boyes), then on to d-men (Leopold, Regehr) and lastly Miller, and how we're trading from a disadvantage (terms, poor form) and questioned if any teams really wanted to take any of these players on. He also added that we should be careful in trading Roy and Stafford (no panic moves), as they still hold value despite their slumping seasons.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=4...&postcount=928

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01-18-2012, 11:55 PM
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After hearing Ruff tonight in the post game ... It may very well be time to head into the sunset. But after the season. The record doesn't bother me as much as the lack of passion and grit, along with the fact that there are no answers (that work) that is turning this team around. That is on the coach. I'm not 100% on the "fire Lindy" bandwagon yet. But every passionless, answerless loss gets me closer.

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01-18-2012, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I don't care about individuals' numbers. The team, on the whole, sucks. Anyone with eyes can see that. When that happens, the coach gets canned. I'm not keeping Lindy Ruff because Pominville and Vanek have put up good numbers. This team's execution is beyond awful right now.

-Start with a coaching change.
-If there's still dead weight, and there will be, get rid of it.

I just find it borderline hilarious that everyone wants cap space right now. For what? So we can throw dumb money at B-list UFAs like Leino and Ehrhoff? So that we can pretend like we have a prayer at getting players like Parise or Suter to come to our rebuilding organization in an undesirable city? Yay for cap space to blow on players with warts who'll only sign here for ridiculous term or money. Shoot me in the face.
Borderline hilarious?

Seriously?

What I find to be borderline hilarious (nix borderline) is that people think losing the 4 million dollar club players like Roy, Stafford, Boyes and company will hurt this team.

And, yes, having that space is a luxury if a trade or a free agent is available at some point that could possibly help this team. For example, say the Sabres were in trade talks with Anaheim for Getzlaf (hypothetical here) and Anaheim is only interested in young players in return. Right now, the Sabres couldn't make that deal because they are up against the cap. If they had more breathing room a trade like that becomes possible.

And, no, I don't want Roy, Stafford and Boyes off this team because they make a combined 12 million dollars. I want them off the team because they make a combined 12 million dollars and are playing like complete crap and showing nothing. It's not just a bad luck thing either....its that they are playing horribly. Generating nothing night in and night out.

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01-19-2012, 12:18 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I just find it borderline hilarious that everyone wants cap space right now. For what? So we can throw dumb money at B-list UFAs like Leino and Ehrhoff? So that we can pretend like we have a prayer at getting players like Parise or Suter to come to our rebuilding organization in an undesirable city? Yay for cap space to blow on players with warts who'll only sign here for ridiculous term or money. Shoot me in the face.
Cap space is cool for trading purposes though. Look at how much value Florida's gotten out of it. Two phenomenal trades entirely because they had cap space and a GM who knew he could get more out of certain guys.

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01-19-2012, 12:26 AM
  #15
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Cap space also let's us approach big free agents like Parise or suter

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01-19-2012, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omglolnub View Post
http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...id=DL|NHL|home

not sure how to embed it, but an interesting video...

like McKenzie says, "the plethora of underachieving or overpaid players not earning their contracts is an indictment of the general manager and/or the head coach."

Fire Regier, fire Ruff. Rebuild. It's just a matter of when...

Any other thoughts on the video though, folks?
Umm yeah my thought is that Regier really messed up signing Leino. He's slow, small, weak on the puck, uncreative, unmotivated, and afraid too shoot. And when he's not busy doing all that, he's turning over the puck and blowing assignments. Leino is single handedly trying to fire one of the best coaches around while at the same time trying to rebuild the franchise with a #1 overall pick. I don't know whether to hug him or hit him?!

lol but anyways, I don't think Ruff is to blame, he's tried everything to get him going. There should be a new rule, the Leino Law. You know, like the Lemon Law for used cars? The Sabres should get a mercy 4th round draft pick from the Flyers. lol

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01-19-2012, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
After hearing Ruff tonight in the post game ... It may very well be time to head into the sunset. But after the season. The record doesn't bother me as much as the lack of passion and grit, along with the fact that there are no answers (that work) that is turning this team around. That is on the coach. I'm not 100% on the "fire Lindy" bandwagon yet. But every passionless, answerless loss gets me closer.
Nah don't buy into that Ruff stuff, he's doing his best. This team is broken, nobody is gonna reach these guys now. Not this season.

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01-19-2012, 01:09 AM
  #18
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Nah don't buy into that Ruff stuff, he's doing his best. This team is broken, nobody is gonna reach these guys now. Not this season.
There is such a thing as a message just not reaching players. I think that's where we're at with Ruff. I believe he's doing his best and I still believe he is a good coach, but I think he needs to leave Buffalo.

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01-19-2012, 01:10 AM
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Yeah, that's a pretty damning quote from MacKenzie.

When a team plays this bad for this long, there's plenty of blame to go around.

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01-19-2012, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
Umm yeah my thought is that Regier really messed up signing Leino. He's slow, small, weak on the puck, uncreative, unmotivated, and afraid too shoot.
Eh.
.


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01-19-2012, 01:35 AM
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Pegula, Regier and Ruff - along with many of the players - often allude to how the local Buffalo media are unfair and overly negative with their criticisms.

I hope they're paying attention because nearly everyone around the NHL - from respected journalists like McKenzie, Dregehr, LeBrun, Allen and Campbell to less credible analysts like Roenick, Olczyk, Hradek and Pang - sees the current mess that the Sabres are, most of which is not injury-caused.

It may be an unfair comparison but Pegula's unflinching support of Regier / Ruff now feels almost as arrogant and defiant as Quinn's infamous M.O. in the past with fans and media.

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01-19-2012, 07:46 AM
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Zip15
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Borderline hilarious?

Seriously?

What I find to be borderline hilarious (nix borderline) is that people think losing the 4 million dollar club players like Roy, Stafford, Boyes and company will hurt this team.
I have no problem losing Boyes for a pick, or making a hockey trade for Stafford. I'm not going to agree with you that just subtracting Roy is going to make the team better. Notwithstanding his underperformance in one half of a season, the team still needs centers and I have faith that Roy isn't a 50-point player for the rest of his career. Losing Roy is not going to make the team better right now. People need to be straight with themselves on this point, and they're not.

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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
And, yes, having that space is a luxury if a trade or a free agent is available at some point that could possibly help this team. For example, say the Sabres were in trade talks with Anaheim for Getzlaf (hypothetical here) and Anaheim is only interested in young players in return. Right now, the Sabres couldn't make that deal because they are up against the cap. If they had more breathing room a trade like that becomes possible.
Sure they could, they could trade Boyes, Leopold, Stafford, send McCormick to Rochester, etc. Saying that guys like Roy and Stafford are blocking such a trade is completely uncreative.

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And, no, I don't want Roy, Stafford and Boyes off this team because they make a combined 12 million dollars. I want them off the team because they make a combined 12 million dollars and are playing like complete crap and showing nothing. It's not just a bad luck thing either....its that they are playing horribly. Generating nothing night in and night out.
Putting Boyes (3 ES pts in 33 games) on the same level is silly. Stafford is underperforming, and if they can make a reasonable hockey deal, they should. The team still needs centers, so trading Roy for anything less than a 1C upgrade is silly and short-sighted, and won't make us better.

Getting a coach who all these guys want to play for is a better idea in the first instance.

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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Cap space is cool for trading purposes though. Look at how much value Florida's gotten out of it. Two phenomenal trades entirely because they had cap space and a GM who knew he could get more out of certain guys.
I think we have to ask ourselves how much Dineen has to do with getting more out of Campbell and Versteeg. Coaching counts, too, and I have zero faith that we can make a trade like that and have Ruff, right now, get more out of players like Soupy and Versteeg.

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Originally Posted by THEYAREGOODSCARYGOOD View Post
Cap space also let's us approach big free agents like Parise or suter
Right, because I'm sure they'll be knocking down the door to get to Buffalo. The Flyers, Wings, and Rags will all be interested in Suter. Why would he come to a worse team (Sabres) and a worse city (Buffalo) for similar money? Same can be said for Parise. Let's give up the pipedream that Pegula is going to get elite UFAs to come here just because he has money.

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01-19-2012, 08:32 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Probably so but freeing that money up and getting those guys off this team will probably be well worth that bath in the long run.
Honestly if they decide to trade Roy I don't think they'll have to lose the trade. Sure any trade involving Roy will most likely make the team worse now, but in the long run will make them better. Not because they're getting him off the roster, or clearing up cap space, but hopefully because they'd get a good center prospect and a pick for him.

I find it funny how people are talking about Roy like he's an awful hockey player after half a season of struggling. While him and Stafford are both playing poorly, IMO they are in different categories. Besides this season Roy has been a pretty solid top six center for most of his career putting up 20-25 goals 65-70 points. Stafford on the other hand has one very good season to point to while the rest of his career has been pretty meh.

They can get good value for Roy if they move him at the right time. I'm just not sure if that time is at the deadline this year or in the offseason. Usually trades like this are better suited for the offseason, but maybe a playoff bound or contending team desperate to add a top six center would be willing to give up alot to get him at the deadline? Even Mackenzie in this video referred to Stafford and Roy as valuable pieces if they were to be moved.

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01-19-2012, 08:34 AM
  #24
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Good stuff, referring to Roy, Stafford, Boyes and the rest of the $4 million club as "the second wave of supposed offense."


Last edited by jlr: 01-19-2012 at 08:41 AM.
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01-19-2012, 08:54 AM
  #25
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The problems began with the new ownership and the freedom to spend. The current Management was very successful with working in the frame work of low spending by utilizing the draft and farm system. This culture is very difficult to change when the GM is retained but told he has an open check book. Either a new GM should have been hired or the team should have waited one year to step back and see what they really had or what they wanted to become. Every team in this league as well as other sports never succeed when the philosophy is spend - spend - spend.

This is to bad because Lindy is a good coach, but has had players dumped on him which he may not even really want.

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