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Intangible Toews heating up

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Old
01-19-2012, 01:35 PM
  #51
ponder
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Perhaps Toews doesn't put up those type of numbers because he is much more defenisvely responsible than all of those players (sans Datsyuk). That said, Toews is a career .90 ppg player, for comparison Giroux is .81, Henrik Sedin is .84 and Datsyuk is .99.
It's not like I'm criticizing Toews here, I have him as a top 3 C in the league with Crosby out, and top 4 with Crosby healthy, ahead of guys like Henrik, Giroux, Stamkos, etc.

When I think "elite hockey sense on offense," I think about the guys who can really slow the game down, who always know where to be and where to pass to, who don't need to use size/strength/speed to create goals. Toews IMO has average hockey sense on offense for a star center, when I watch him it's more his physical tools, skill set and effort that really stand out on offense. And as I already mentioned, in terms of his forechecking/defensive/neutral zone play, he's basically perfect in terms of both the mental and physical aspects.


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01-19-2012, 01:39 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
He is most definitely one of the top 5 centres in the league. It really shouldn't be an argument anymore. The only knock against him before was his offence. He is currently top 10 in scoring. He finished 12th in scoring last year. He is currently 2nd in the league in goals. His offence is, and has been for a significant length of time, elite. When you add to all that the fact that he is the top faceoff man in the league, a proven playoff performer, elite defensively and an undisputed leader; you have one of the best centres in the game.
And he's playing on a line with a struggling Pat Kane and still gettin' it done.

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01-19-2012, 01:54 PM
  #53
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Wow, there's a guy in here saying Toews is top 3 and some Chicago fans still ripping the guy?

I agree with the him, Malkin, Datsyuk then Toews. Add Crosby in there you could put him at number 3/4. With all he centers in he leauge,...is number 3/4 THAT horrible of a number?

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01-19-2012, 01:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Read my post more carefully, I was only comparing him to Nash in terms of both of them being players with absolutely elite tools (in terms of physical abilities like size/speed/strength, as well as skill with the puck) who don't necessarily produce quite as much as you'd think they could, because they don't necessarily see the game at an elite level offensively. Toews has good/fine hockey sense offensively, but it's his physical tools and skills are truly elite, as well as his effort level, obviously. You'll see I compare his overall game to "Kesler with more hockey sense, and more skill with the puck, but not on the level of guys like Crosby, Datsyuk, the Sedins, Grioux, etc. in terms of his offensive hockey sense."
I read your post carefully. You basically said that Toews, like Nash, has elite tools and doesn't score as much as you would think because of his hockey sense. That is completely false. His hockey sense is excellent (certainly much better than Nash). While his tools are very good, the only skills he has that are truly amazing are faceoffs, hockey sense (both offensively and defensively) and puck control down low. None of which are especially flashy (which is why you still have people arguing that his offense isn't elite). As opposed to Nash who has breakaway speed and amazing shot (both of which are flashy skills who people love to point to when talking about how good he is offensively), but subpar hockey sense and effort. It is just a horrible comparison.

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01-19-2012, 01:59 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Dynheart View Post
Wow, there's a guy in here saying Toews is top 3 and some Chicago fans still ripping the guy?

I agree with the him, Malkin, Datsyuk then Toews. Add Crosby in there you could put him at number 3/4. With all he centers in he leauge,...is number 3/4 THAT horrible of a number?
I am ripping the argument that it is his hockey sense that is holding him back, which is absurd.

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01-19-2012, 02:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Puckgenius View Post
He was off to a slow start but now, 26 goals, second to Stamkos. First in takeaways with 71. Best faceoff % in the league, 9th in points. Cant believe some people still dont think hes a top 5 centre in the league. Id still take him over stamkos anyday of the week.
Toews is right on the cusp of top 5, I have him in mine but I can see why others wouldnt.

But up until this year he definitely did not deserve that title whatsoever. He wasnt even breaking 70 points the first couple years and last year he wasnt even at a ppg pace. He definitely did not deserve to be considered top 5 in the league up until this season.

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01-19-2012, 02:02 PM
  #57
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Crosby, Malkin, Datsyuk, and Giroux I'd take before him, after that in no order would be Toews, Sedin, and Stamkos.

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01-19-2012, 02:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
I am ripping the argument that it is his hockey sense that is holding him back, which is absurd.
Well think about it. Look at Malkin and Datsyuks score sheet. Even look at Crosbys score sheet. These Guys are capable of putting up 30 (or more) goals PLUS 60 assists. Toews atm has a great deal of goals, but just 22 assist. And at the rate he's going he'll end up sub 40 this year. Sure he'll hit 40 goals, but at what expense? Not having that complete game... I think that's what he's getting at. Meaning if he's not scoring goals, he's not as big a threat as the other three (not setting up as many offensive plays hence not as many assists)...hockey sense would come into play there. Toews is still a beast...I have no clue why you're arguing. Rick Nash is the same way. Bunch of goals, most of the time ends up with more goals that assists. Toews isn't to that extent, though. That's why it was an example. I think you are taking this to heart way to hard. THen again, I could have misunderstood what he/she meant.../shrug


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01-19-2012, 02:21 PM
  #59
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He's basically last year's Kesler when he was doing everything. Offensively, defensively, and faceoff. Good for him, if he continues this, he'll win the Selke for sure.

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01-19-2012, 02:35 PM
  #60
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Toews is 23, every year his offensive production has increased every year after his 2nd year in the league just like you would expect.

19 - .84 ppg
20 - .84 ppg
21 - .89 ppg
22 - .95 ppg
23 - 1.02 ppg

Datsyuk didn't hit a point per game until he was 27, Henrik Sedin not until 28.

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01-19-2012, 02:37 PM
  #61
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Lol... last years Kesler.

Kesler is not on Toews level - not this year and not last year

Right now, there is only 1 player in the NHL I'd take over him and that is Malkin. Crosby is out so I don't consider him until he is back fulltime

Stamkos is not as good as Toews. Stamkos knows how to score goals and thats it

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01-19-2012, 02:40 PM
  #62
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Datsyuk didn't hit a point per game until he was 27, Henrik Sedin not until 28.
What's that have to be with currently being a better player? No one's saying Toews doesn't have potential to be better than them in the future.

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01-19-2012, 02:42 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Dynheart View Post
Well think about it. Look at Malkin and Datsyuks score sheet. Even look at Crosbys score sheet. These Guys are capable of putting up 30 (or more) goals PLUS 60 assists. Toews atm has a great deal of goals, but just 22 assist. And at the rate he's going he'll end up sub 40 this year. Sure he'll hit 40 goals, but at what expense? Not having that complete game... I think that's what he's getting at. Meaning if he's not scoring goals, he's not as big a threat as the other three (not setting up as many offensive plays hence not as many assists)...hockey sense would come into play there. Toews is still a beast...I have no clue why you're arguing. Rick Nash is the same way. Bunch of goals, most of the time ends up with more goals that assists. Toews isn't to that extent, though. That's why it was an example. I think you are taking this to heart way to hard. THen again, I could have misunderstood what he/she meant.../shrug
Talk about cherry picking numbers. Datsyuk has scored 30 goals 3 times in his entire career. He has scored 60 assists 3 times in his career. He has done neither in the last 2+ seasons. What kind of argument is this? Toews is just as adept at setting up goals as he is at scoring them. The reason he has more goals than assists this year is that he has spent much of it playing with a slumping Kane (who may be playing the worst hockey of his professional career) and a myriad of other wingers thrown on his wing. This is where you have to watch more than just the score sheets to understand what kind of player Toews is. Hell, in the last 3 games alone he has probably set up Kane for 5 excellent scoring chances, none of which went in. Again I will say, Toews' hockey sense is one of his biggest strengths, not something that is holding him back. That is all I am arguing. Any rational person who has watched him a lot would agree.

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01-19-2012, 05:36 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Jarnkrok View Post
What's that have to be with currently being a better player? No one's saying Toews doesn't have potential to be better than them in the future.
Because when talking about Toews current offensive ability, people always bring up he's never been a ppg player before.

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01-19-2012, 05:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Talk about cherry picking numbers. Datsyuk has scored 30 goals 3 times in his entire career. He has scored 60 assists 3 times in his career. He has done neither in the last 2+ seasons. What kind of argument is this? Toews is just as adept at setting up goals as he is at scoring them. The reason he has more goals than assists this year is that he has spent much of it playing with a slumping Kane (who may be playing the worst hockey of his professional career) and a myriad of other wingers thrown on his wing. This is where you have to watch more than just the score sheets to understand what kind of player Toews is. Hell, in the last 3 games alone he has probably set up Kane for 5 excellent scoring chances, none of which went in. Again I will say, Toews' hockey sense is one of his biggest strengths, not something that is holding him back. That is all I am arguing. Any rational person who has watched him a lot would agree.
Talk about a bitter Chicago fan who is desperate. I said 30 goals or more. Notice how I said Malkin.. AND Crosby (I mentioned THREE guys for a reason...not ONE), but yet you just pull Datsyuk out of the lot. Goes to show you how Chicago fans will stop at nothing until they are better at Detroit at everything... That includes their top centerman.

Besides, it wasn't my argumement, it was my feeble attempt at trying to get you to understand what the other guy was trying to say. Yet you wont except anything other than Toews being number 1 obviously; judging by "Toews is the bestest yous better watch him" arguement.

And as far Datsyuk not hitting anything last yaer...look at games played. 23f 36a in 56games... if you don't think he would have hit either by 82 game if not injured I don't know what to tell you. The year before, yea, he had an off year.

He's elite. But just about everybody says Malkin and Datsyuk first. If Crosby was here and healthy, then him. These guys over Toews. I don't see how this ca be argued, other than by hardcore Chicago fans. These guys if not scoring are still a threat on the ice, IMO, Toews is not there to these guys standard. 40 asisst is nothing to sneeze at..geez man...give it a rest.


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01-19-2012, 05:47 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
It's not like I'm criticizing Toews here, I have him as a top 3 C in the league with Crosby out, and top 4 with Crosby healthy, ahead of guys like Henrik, Giroux, Stamkos, etc.

When I think "elite hockey sense on offense," I think about the guys who can really slow the game down, who always know where to be and where to pass to, who don't need to use size/strength/speed to create goals. Toews IMO has average hockey sense on offense for a star center, when I watch him it's more his physical tools, skill set and effort that really stand out on offense. And as I already mentioned, in terms of his forechecking/defensive/neutral zone play, he's basically perfect in terms of both the mental and physical aspects.
I agree with this, good assessment.

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01-19-2012, 05:49 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Toews is 23, every year his offensive production has increased every year after his 2nd year in the league just like you would expect.

19 - .84 ppg
20 - .84 ppg
21 - .89 ppg
22 - .95 ppg
23 - 1.02 ppg

Datsyuk didn't hit a point per game until he was 27, Henrik Sedin not until 28.
Datsyuk wasn't 18 or 19 when he entered the league either, he was 23. Also he played on teams that were so stacked he was a 4th line player for his first 3 years, how can you even begin to compare them ? It wasn't until Datsyuk became a top 6 player that he took over, and became the beast he is now (2006 - present). Compare the years of Datsyuk's top 6 role to Toews top 6 role and the numbers really aren't even close.

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01-19-2012, 05:50 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Dynheart View Post
Talk about a bitter Chicago fan who is desperate. I said 30 goals or more Notice how I said Malkin.. AND Crosby, but yet you just pull Datsyuk out of the lot. goes to show you how Chicago fans will stop at nothing until they are better at Detroit at everything... That includes their top centerman.
Datsyuk is the more comparable of the three to Toews since they are both elite two way player. I would have thought that was obvious.

Quote:
Besides, it wasn't my argumement, it was my feeble attempt at trying to get you to understand what the other guy was trying to say. Yet you wont except anything other than Toews being number 1 obviously; judging by "Teows is the bestest yous better watch him" arguement.
I understood what the other guy was saying, I just did not agree with it. And I have no problem with people not thinking Toews is the best centre in the league, that is a complete red herring you brought up. I was arguing how ridiculous it is to say that it is due to his hockey sense that Toews doesn't put up more points... which it is. Your argument that somehow the fact he has more goals than assists this year is evidence of this lack of hockey sense is also ridiculous.

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He's elite. But just about everybody says Malkin and Datsyuk first. If Crosby was here and healthy, then him. These guys over Toews. I don't see hw this ca be argued, other than by hardcore Chicago fans. These guys if not scoring are still a threat on the ice, IMO, Toews is not there to these guys standard. 40 asisst is nothing to sneeze at..geez man...give it a rest.
Show me where I argued that Toews is ahead of Malkin, Datsyuk and Crosby. Please show me. If you want to argue, at least argue points I have actually argued. Don't just make crap up.

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01-19-2012, 05:52 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Jarnkrok View Post
What's that have to be with currently being a better player? No one's saying Toews doesn't have potential to be better than them in the future.
Right now Toews is right there with Datsyuk and slightly behind Sedin in scoring. The argument can be made that Toews "right now" is very similar to those two offensively. The only argument against that is scoring from previous years. That isn't really fair to Toews since, as the stats show, he has gotten better offensively every single season and has shown no signs of slowing down.

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01-19-2012, 05:56 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
Datsyuk wasn't 18 or 19 when he entered the league either, he was 23. Also he played on teams that were so stacked he was a 4th line player for his first 3 years, how can you even begin to compare them ? It wasn't until Datsyuk became a top 6 player that he took over, and became the beast he is now (2006 - present). Compare the years of Datsyuk's top 6 role to Toews top 6 role and the numbers really aren't even close.
How is this an argument for Datsyuk? If he was good enough to play in the league as a 19 year old he would have. If he was good enough to play in the top 6 he would have. People love to pretend that Toews walked into some lottery team. Toews' rookie year the Hawks just missed the playoffs. His second, they went to the conference finals. His third they won the cup. He came into a good team, played big minutes and was successful as a 19-21 year old. There are a lot of arguments for Datsyuk over Toews. The one quoted isn't one of them.

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01-19-2012, 06:06 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Datsyuk is the more comparable of the three to Toews since they are both elite two way player. I would have thought that was obvious.



I understood what the other guy was saying, I just did not agree with it. And I have no problem with people not thinking Toews is the best centre in the league, that is a complete red herring you brought up. I was arguing how ridiculous it is to say that it is due to his hockey sense that Toews doesn't put up more points... which it is. Your argument that somehow the fact he has more goals than assists this year is evidence of this lack of hockey sense is also ridiculous.



Show me where I argued that Toews is ahead of Malkin, Datsyuk and Crosby. Please show me. If you want to argue, at least argue points I have actually argued. Don't just make crap up.
You are taking abuot hockey sense, right? How is not being offensively dangerous part of that? If Toews can use that hockey sense and offensice ability, to score those goals, why doesn't he have 40+ assist as well? Don't give me that Kane struggle crap. You want to do the Datsyuk VS Toews comparisons, fine. Datsyuk has a floater named Franzen who has NO hockey sense. His mentality is "GIMME PUCK I SHOOT". He has a wicked shot....but he's steaky. And his other line mate? Bertuzzi. That's what Datsyukhas to work with. The man managed 36 assist so far. So while he not trying to score, he's still using settingu p those passes/usingthat hockey IQ to set up an old man like Betuzzi and and a numb nut like Franzen.

I think Toews has great hockey sense, but he could be better with his playmaking. Just imagine his point output if he could set up plays like Malkin, Datsyuk and Crosby? Riht now, IMO, he's an elite goal scorer, an elite backchecker/2-way player... an average set up guy. If he get's that going he'll be unstopable. That's my 2-cents.


Last edited by Dynheart: 01-19-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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01-19-2012, 06:09 PM
  #72
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Ask Boston what Bergeron has done in Olympics and last year cup run.
Look at the wingers of Tavares: stats before and with Tavares.
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Amongst Malkin, Stamkos, Bergeron, Datysuk, Tavares, how is Toesw top 5?
I don't even know what to say...

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01-19-2012, 06:11 PM
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How is this an argument for Datsyuk? If he was good enough to play in the league as a 19 year old he would have. If he was good enough to play in the top 6 he would have. People love to pretend that Toews walked into some lottery team. Toews' rookie year the Hawks just missed the playoffs. His second, they went to the conference finals. His third they won the cup. He came into a good team, played big minutes and was successful as a 19-21 year old. There are a lot of arguments for Datsyuk over Toews. The one quoted isn't one of them.
Dude, drafting was different... I advise you look up his story. He was playing in an area where they hardly checked/noticed... He was passed over because of several reasons (not because he wasn't good enough like you are implying). Look at him .... He get's drafted first round in todays game.

And their stories are very different. Toews came into a BAD team and started to save that team (franchise player)... Datsyuk came into HOF ladden team... 3/4 line minutes is all he got. Totally different stories.


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01-19-2012, 06:30 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Dynheart View Post
You are taking abuot hockey sense, right? How is not being offensively dangerous part of that?
Toews is currently 9th in league scoring. He was 12th last season. He is offensively dangerous, that is my point.

Quote:
If Toews can use that hockey sense and offensice ability, to score those goals, why doesn't he have 40+ assist as well? Don't give me that Kane struggle crap. You want to do the Datsyuk VS Toews comparisons, fine. Datsyuk has a floater named Franzen who has NO hockey sense. His mentality is "GIMME PUCK I SHOOT". He has a wicked shot....but he's steaky. And his other line mate? Bertuzzi. That's what Datsyukhas to work with. The man managed 36 assist so far. So while he not trying to score, he's still using settingu p those passes/usingthat hockey IQ to set up an old man like Betuzzi and and a numb nut like Franzen.
So it takes hockey sense to assist on goals and not score them? What exactly are you arguing here?

Quote:
I think Toews has great hockey sense, but he could be better with his playmaking. Just imagine his point output if he could set up plays like Malkin, Datsyuk and Crosby? Riht now, IMO, he's an elite goal scorer, an elite backchecker/2-way player... an average set up guy. If he get's that going he'll be unstopable. That's my 2-cents.
He is a better than average playmaker. He doesn't play with a goal scorer, it is as simple as that. He may not be the best playmaker in the league. He may not be the best goalscorer. But he is one of the very few that can do both extremely well.

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01-19-2012, 06:33 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
Datsyuk wasn't 18 or 19 when he entered the league either, he was 23. Also he played on teams that were so stacked he was a 4th line player for his first 3 years, how can you even begin to compare them ? It wasn't until Datsyuk became a top 6 player that he took over, and became the beast he is now (2006 - present). Compare the years of Datsyuk's top 6 role to Toews top 6 role and the numbers really aren't even close.

This is such a horrible argument because it's just not true. In Datsyuk's rookie season he was 7th in even strength ice time per game for forwards and he also got nearly 2 minutes of PP ice time. The following year he was 5th in ES ice time for forwards and received over 2 minutes of PP time. His 3rd season, 2nd in ES ice time, and over 3 minutes of PP time.

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