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Josh Gorges Comparables

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Old
02-05-2012, 05:48 AM
  #1
Habs Junkie
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Josh Gorges Comparables

Much was said around here in the last 24 hours, some of you attacked me cause I called out Josh Gorges. It seems that questioning his value to the team is a big no-no around here. Posters were saying that Gorges is the Heart and Soul of the team. Even Math Man the poster was questioning the amount of data available to analyse this. So I decided to do some research and put together some reading for all you arm chair GMs.

Here's a list of 15 of the top 30 defencemen in shot blocking in the NHL. I went through each one of them and picked the players with the closest style that would resemble to Josh Gorges, using shot blocking as the main criteria, age, size, stats and contractual situations.

Josh Gorges - Montreal Canadiens - Age: 27 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 200
Length: 6 Year(S) Value: $23,400,000 Cap Hit: $3,900,000
Regular Season 52 2 10 12 10 32

Mark Stuart- Winnipeg Jets - Age: 27 Height: 6' 2" Weight: 213
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $5,100,000 Cap Hit: $1,700,000
Regular Season 51 3 4 7 -6 76

Ladislav Smid - Edmonton Oilers - Age: 26 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 210
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $4,500,000 Cap Hit: $2,250,000
Regular Season 52 3 5 8 -6 34

Daniel Girardi - New York Rangers - Age: 27 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 206
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $13,300,000 Cap Hit: $3,325,000
Regular Season 49 4 13 17 9 12

Bryan Allen - Carolina Hurricanes - Age: 31 Height: 6' 5" Weight: 226
Length: 5 Year(S) Value: $14,500,000 Cap Hit: $2,900,000
Regular Season 54 0 7 7 -1 52

Brett Clark - Tampa Bay Lightning - Age: 35 Height: 6' 0" Weight: 194
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $3,000,000 Cap Hit: $1,500,000
Regular Season 51 2 7 9 -16 18

Kevin Klein - Nashville Predators - Age: 27 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 200
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $4,050,000 Cap Hit: $1,350,000
Regular Season 45 3 10 13 -8 4

Francois Beauchemin - Anaheim Ducks - Age: 31 Height: 6' 0" Weight: 207
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $10,500,000 Cap Hit: $3,800,000
Regular Season 51 6 12 18 -2 37

Eric Brewer - Tampa Bay Lightning - Age: 32 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 220
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $15,400,000 Cap Hit: $3,850,000
Regular Season 51 1 11 12 -1 31

Dennis Seidenberg - Boston Bruins - Age: 30 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 210
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $13,000,000 Cap Hit: $3,250,000
Regular Season 50 3 16 19 14 26

Nick Schultz - Minnesota Wild - Age: 29 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 200
Length: 6 Year(S) Value: $21,000,000 Cap Hit: $3,500,000
Regular Season 52 0 2 2 -5 18

Chris Phillips - Ottawa Senators - Age: 33 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 221
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $9,250,000 Cap Hit: $3,083,333
Regular Season 53 0 13 13 1 12

Matt Carle - Philadelphia Flyers - Age: 27
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $13,750,000 Cap Hit: $3,437,500
Regular Season 51 4 24 28 3 24

Douglas Murray - San Jose Sharks - Age: 31 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 240
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $10,000,000 Cap Hit: $2,500,000
Regular Season 40 0 4 4 7 25

Ryan O'byrne - Colorado Avalanche - Age: 27 Height: 6' 5" Weight: 234
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $3,600,000 Cap Hit: $1,800,000
Regular Season 54 1 5 6 -1 39

Jay Harrison - Carolina Hurricanes - Age: 29 Height: 6' 4" Weight: 211
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $1,400,000 Cap Hit: $700,000
Regular Season 44 7 12 19 -2 40

I skipped certain players like Niklas Hjalmarsson, Carl Gunnarsson and Ryan McDonagh because of their age and contract situations. I also didn't see a point in comparing guys like Hal Gill, Kimmo Timonen, Filip Kuba, Roman Hamrlik and Brent Seabrook.

This list is pretty accurate. It shows you some good comparables to Gorges, and what other teams paid for these type of services.

Gauthier got fleeced by Gorges' agent...hard! The Canadiens didn't set a bar with this contract but overpaid big time. This is why I'm so hard on Gorges. His tires were being pumped so hard by some of you and the media, that when Gauthier realized the season was going down the toilet, he tried saving his ass by pleasing the fans who completely overrated this type of player. Yes Gauthier is a MORON, but Gorges agent also pushed for such a big deal and Gorges is now eating a large chunk of the cap. No way do we ever get value on this contract.

And for those who are saying he's a +12 on the worst team, I say he better be a +12 playing on the top pair when you are a defensive specialist. Being a top pair D, also means you are playing with other top players at the same time who are more likely to be put in offensive situations. Gorges is the main guy out of 5 players on the ice at any given time who thinks defense only, so it is logical teams score less when he's on, and also logical that he's on during scoring plays. It does not mean he made the play or contributed to the goal.



edit: I changed Gorges cap hit to next years, because most people were using this years as an argument that he's well paid. Every other players' cap hit is for 2010-2011 season.


Last edited by Habs Junkie: 02-06-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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Old
02-05-2012, 05:56 AM
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I just want to add that Josh Gorges is 2nd in the NHL in total ice time short handed behind Francois Beauchemin who is on the list of comparables.

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02-05-2012, 06:21 AM
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Not to nitpick but Gorges caphit is 3.9 M.

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02-05-2012, 07:06 AM
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Yeah he's overpaid. 3 million flat would have been fair value I'd say, especially with the length of that contract.

It's not unusual though. For some reason we need to overpay all our players (compensation for higher taxes in QC?)

Have we signed any (important) player in recent memory for a fair price as far as the team in concerned?
The last few i can think of are Kovalev, Tanguay, Lang, and Cole. iirc, Tanguay and Lang were 1 year contracts, and Kovalev and Cole exceeded the expectations.

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02-05-2012, 07:12 AM
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When were these players contracts negotiated? The only real comparables would be contracts from this year as prices go up every single year. Is Gorges contract an overpayment this year? Maybe. In 3 or 4 years? Not a chance.

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02-05-2012, 07:16 AM
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GET OVER IT AND STOP WHINING!!!!!!!!! He is very valuable to the team not just on the ice but off the ice, I saw him talking about his team yesterday after the game saying they were trying a little too hard, Well for his to recognize that shows that he is a true leader, He is very valuable to the team and he needs to stay with this team!! Were having a bad season. I suppose you need to complain about somebody, this guy could definately be our captain! We are a brand new team next year with no GOMEZ a healthy white,markov,gionta ... completely different team.

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02-05-2012, 07:36 AM
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I don't even know where to begin... so I won't.

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02-05-2012, 07:44 AM
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yeah so what? he is a LITTLE overpaid and he could have gotten 4 mil on the market anyways and that's why gauthier had to pay what he did. you seriously need to get over it

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02-05-2012, 08:20 AM
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The fact that your list contains a lot of D who, despite comparable stats as you say, don't do the main thing Gorges do wich is play against first lines shows that you really don't get it. I'll say what I said in the other thread, top pairing D isn't about some sort of magic formula where grit+size+good shot+whatever people decided was a good defensive quality this month=top pair, it'sx about actually playing your minutes against first liners and getting out of them in the + ( not just traditional but on most avanced stats too).

And as much as I think traditional +- is a flawed stat, especially when taken out of context, saying Gorges should have a great +- because off his role on the top pair where he gets to play with top players shows you haven't noticed how players have been used this season. Gorges gets hard unsheltred minutes and he tends to get most of them with other players who AREN'T, as you said, put in "offensive situations". If Gorges had spent the whole season backing up the DD line you might have a point there but I really don't know how you can actually watch the games and think Gorges gets used in offensive situations.

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02-05-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
Much was said around here in the last 24 hours, some of you attacked me cause I called out Josh Gorges. It seems that questioning his value to the team is a big no-no around here. Posters were saying that Gorges is the Heart and Soul of the team. Even Math Man the poster was questioning the amount of data available to analyse this. So I decided to do some research and put together some reading for all you arm chair GMs.

Here's a list of 15 of the top 30 defencemen in shot blocking in the NHL. I went through each one of them and picked the players with the closest style that would resemble to Josh Gorges, using shot blocking as the main criteria, age, size, stats and contractual situations.

Josh Gorges - Montreal Canadiens - Age: 27 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 200
Length: 6 Year(S) Value: $23,400,000 Cap Hit: $2,500,000
Regular Season 52 2 10 12 10 32

Mark Stuart- Winnipeg Jets - Age: 27 Height: 6' 2" Weight: 213
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $5,100,000 Cap Hit: $1,700,000
Regular Season 51 3 4 7 -6 76

Ladislav Smid - Edmonton Oilers - Age: 26 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 210
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $4,500,000 Cap Hit: $2,250,000
Regular Season 52 3 5 8 -6 34

Daniel Girardi - New York Rangers - Age: 27 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 206
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $13,300,000 Cap Hit: $3,325,000
Regular Season 49 4 13 17 9 12

Bryan Allen - Carolina Hurricanes - Age: 31 Height: 6' 5" Weight: 226
Length: 5 Year(S) Value: $14,500,000 Cap Hit: $2,900,000
Regular Season 54 0 7 7 -1 52

Brett Clark - Tampa Bay Lightning - Age: 35 Height: 6' 0" Weight: 194
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $3,000,000 Cap Hit: $1,500,000
Regular Season 51 2 7 9 -16 18

Kevin Klein - Nashville Predators - Age: 27 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 200
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $4,050,000 Cap Hit: $1,350,000
Regular Season 45 3 10 13 -8 4

Francois Beauchemin - Anaheim Ducks - Age: 31 Height: 6' 0" Weight: 207
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $10,500,000 Cap Hit: $3,800,000
Regular Season 51 6 12 18 -2 37

Eric Brewer - Tampa Bay Lightning - Age: 32 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 220
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $15,400,000 Cap Hit: $3,850,000
Regular Season 51 1 11 12 -1 31

Dennis Seidenberg - Boston Bruins - Age: 30 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 210
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $13,000,000 Cap Hit: $3,250,000
Regular Season 50 3 16 19 14 26

Nick Schultz - Minnesota Wild - Age: 29 Height: 6' 1" Weight: 200
Length: 6 Year(S) Value: $21,000,000 Cap Hit: $3,500,000
Regular Season 52 0 2 2 -5 18

Chris Phillips - Ottawa Senators - Age: 33 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 221
Length: 3 Year(S) Value: $9,250,000 Cap Hit: $3,083,333
Regular Season 53 0 13 13 1 12

Matt Carle - Philadelphia Flyers - Age: 27
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $13,750,000 Cap Hit: $3,437,500
Regular Season 51 4 24 28 3 24

Douglas Murray - San Jose Sharks - Age: 31 Height: 6' 3" Weight: 240
Length: 4 Year(S) Value: $10,000,000 Cap Hit: $2,500,000
Regular Season 40 0 4 4 7 25

Ryan O'byrne - Colorado Avalanche - Age: 27 Height: 6' 5" Weight: 234
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $3,600,000 Cap Hit: $1,800,000
Regular Season 54 1 5 6 -1 39

Jay Harrison - Carolina Hurricanes - Age: 29 Height: 6' 4" Weight: 211
Length: 2 Year(S) Value: $1,400,000 Cap Hit: $700,000
Regular Season 44 7 12 19 -2 40

I skipped certain players like Niklas Hjalmarsson, Carl Gunnarsson and Ryan McDonagh because of their age and contract situations. I also didn't see a point in comparing guys like Hal Gill, Kimmo Timonen, Filip Kuba, Roman Hamrlik and Brent Seabrook.

This list is pretty accurate. It shows you some good comparables to Gorges, and what other teams paid for these type of services.

Gauthier got fleeced by Gorges' agent...hard! The Canadiens didn't set a bar with this contract but overpaid big time. This is why I'm so hard on Gorges. His tires were being pumped so hard by some of you and the media, that when Gauthier realized the season was going down the toilet, he tried saving his ass by pleasing the fans who completely overrated this type of player. Yes Gauthier is a MORON, but Gorges agent also pushed for such a big deal and Gorges is now eating a large chunk of the cap. No way do we ever get value on this contract.

And for those who are saying he's a +12 on the worst team, I say he better be a +12 playing on the top pair when you are a defensive specialist. Being a top pair D, also means you are playing with other top players at the same time who are more likely to be put in offensive situations. Gorges is the main guy out of 5 players on the ice at any given time who thinks defense only, so it is logical teams score less when he's on, and also logical that he's on during scoring plays. It does not mean he made the play or contributed to the goal.

the bottom line with Josh is this ...he is an average dman making nearly 4 mil on a
s h i t hockey team

thats my problem , we are nearly capped out and have no front line forward , or a legit top 2 dman ( MARKOV IS DONE ..DONT BRING HIM UP )

thats poor asset management , I dont care what the market calls for Josh on this roster 4 mil for he brings to the table and how bad we are I would of movd him .

he has no upside whatsoever , so its not as if wow in 3 years he may go up a notch
he will be the same at 30 that he is now .

fk blocked shots or hits , who the fk cares , its about wins period .

and we have too much money tied to many average-decent players with no FKEN
upside

The ones who might have it PK, Eller , Price , Max all need raises while I still have to the pay those 4+ million waste of space players , THATS OUR PROBLEM .

The salary structure is whacked out and not staggered enough where you can walk away from bad expiring contracts

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02-05-2012, 08:54 AM
  #11
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Leave josh gorges alone. One of the only guy who as the CH tattooed on his hearth.

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02-05-2012, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
The fact that your list contains a lot of D who, despite comparable stats as you say, don't do the main thing Gorges do wich is play against first lines shows that you really don't get it. I'll say what I said in the other thread, top pairing D isn't about some sort of magic formula where grit+size+good shot+whatever people decided was a good defensive quality this month=top pair, it'sx about actually playing your minutes against first liners and getting out of them in the + ( not just traditional but on most avanced stats too).

And as much as I think traditional +- is a flawed stat, especially when taken out of context, saying Gorges should have a great +- because off his role on the top pair where he gets to play with top players shows you haven't noticed how players have been used this season. Gorges gets hard unsheltred minutes and he tends to get most of them with other players who AREN'T, as you said, put in "offensive situations". If Gorges had spent the whole season backing up the DD line you might have a point there but I really don't know how you can actually watch the games and think Gorges gets used in offensive situations.
having o'byrne and seidenberg on the same list proves he's not being serious

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02-05-2012, 08:59 AM
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The argument is flawed, there's no point in discussing it.

Gorges may be slightly overpaid at this point, but in return we get a guy who likely will be underpaid on the back end of his contract. Not worth getting worked u over. I'm glad he's locked up.

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02-05-2012, 09:16 AM
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Marchy79
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Gorges is definately NOT a problem here... & considering his commitment to this team, and the x-factor of being a young leader in the dressing room... I'd say he's doing just fine.

3.9 is A BIT steep... But for Gorges, with all of his attributes... I let passing, consider Gorges to be an elite level defensive defenceman. He's the BIGGEST, most underrated factor to our PK (Gill gets too much credit IMO), is a to 3-5 shotblocker in the NHL, sound positionally, great outlet passing, and a vocal leader in the dressing room. Furthermore, he's Price's best friend on the team.

Too many good attributes for anyone to really slag on him for. Oh yeah, and this year, he's solidifying his game, though the team is falling apart around him.

Happilly, he will be a huge part of this team's future. and in 4 yrs time... 4 million wont be a bad price for Gorges. He's no offensive wiz... But we already have that in Markov, Kaberle, Subban & Weber.

Gorges will have his role.

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02-05-2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jacques Demers View Post
Yeah he's overpaid. 3 million flat would have been fair value I'd say, especially with the length of that contract.

It's not unusual though. For some reason we need to overpay all our players (compensation for higher taxes in QC?)

Have we signed any (important) player in recent memory for a fair price as far as the team in concerned?
The last few i can think of are Kovalev, Tanguay, Lang, and Cole. iirc, Tanguay and Lang were 1 year contracts, and Kovalev and Cole exceeded the expectations.
Tanguay and Lang were both aquired from trades, we never signed them. When we signed Cole, this board almost crashed because he was ''overpaid'' by 500 000$. Kovalev, Koivu and Markov (not his latest contract, obviously) are pretty much the only ones who signed here taking around/slightly under their values.

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02-05-2012, 09:26 AM
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Gorges' cap hit is right in line with comparables. Since you highlited total salary instead, I assume your real problem is the cap hit combined with the length of the contract? IMO, a term that takes a defenceman from age 27 through 33 is very team friendly. If your problem is the total size of the contract, maybe your real problem is the fact that Gorges was a relatively young UFA. So, no problem at all.

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02-05-2012, 09:36 AM
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bwahahaha this place has officially lost it. We are now at the point of blaming Gorges for the downfall. If you guys are so blatantly blind you cant see that injuries and bad luck have been our downfall this year than you know SQUAT about hockey.

Last night was a great example, look at the goal scored form the blueline....unreal how that goes in, and its been happenng ALL season.

Two penalty shots in one game ? Are you ****in kidding me. I have been watching the Habs since the early 70's and i barely remember and penalty shots for the Habs, none the less two in one game.

Josh ****in Gorges the real problem to the Habs woes !

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02-05-2012, 09:38 AM
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02-05-2012, 09:48 AM
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bwahahaha this place has officially lost it. We are now at the point of blaming Gorges for the downfall. If you guys are so blatantly blind you cant see that injuries and bad luck have been our downfall this year than you know SQUAT about hockey.

Last night was a great example, look at the goal scored form the blueline....unreal how that goes in, and its been happenng ALL season.

Two penalty shots in one game ? Are you ****in kidding me. I have been watching the Habs since the early 70's and i barely remember and penalty shots for the Habs, none the less two in one game.

Josh ****in Gorges the real problem to the Habs woes !
It's even more ridiculous when you consider the fact that we are a good team when Josh Gorges is on the ice so I don't see how people can say he's only a top pairing guy on a bad team. The top pairing is the least of our problems right now. The lack of a second pairing, injuries, coaching and being so unlucky that it's becoming hilarious are what has sinked this team. At this point you get the high pick, sell the UFAs who won't come back next year, find a coach who at least as a clue about how matchups works and considering the roster, we should be good to pull a 2008-2009 Flyers.

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02-05-2012, 10:25 AM
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Can Gorges clear the front of the net?
Can he play on the PP?
Can he chip in offensively 5 on 5?
Does he have a decent shot?
Is he an imposing presence on the back end?
Can he make a good 1st pass?
Can he bring the puck up the ice consistently?
Is he physical?
Has he produced more than 25 points in his career?

The answer to all these questions is no.

He is a decent Dman, but please don't try to tell me he's a top line dman and his $4M contract is a steal.

He has 29 points in 170 games. For $4M, if he can't clear the crease, hit, or be a physical presence I need a bit more production than that from my 1st pairing dman.

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02-05-2012, 10:37 AM
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You pretty much made a list of guys with a lot of blocked shots that are paid less then Gorges and tried to paint it as an objective list of comparable players.

This was done regardless of whether or not players were RFAs when they signed their deal (Girardi, Carle, Klein, O'B, etc.), or took a hometown discount (Phillips), or were borderline NHLers at the time of signing their contract (Harrison).

Gorges was signed to be a long term solid defensive dman with the Habs. His comparable players are guys that were signed to fulfill a similar role on their team:

Gleason - 4 year 3.5M/year (extended this year)
Jackman - 4 year 3.65M/year (with one RFA year bumping cap hit down a bit)
Orpik - 6 year 3.75/year (signed in 08-09)
Brewer - 4 year 3.85M/year
Gorges - 6 year 3.9M/year
Z. Michalek - 5 year 4M/year
Regehr - 5 year 4.02M/year
Vochenkov - 6 year 4.25M/year

These are examples of long term contracts handed out to good defensive defensemen over the last few years. They are Gorges comparable contracts.

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02-05-2012, 10:41 AM
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Gorges is actually underpaid. #2 dman in every team in the league and a better player without a doubt than all those clowns listed in the first post.

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02-05-2012, 10:49 AM
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Gauthier was forced to overpay for the services of Gorges because of his ineptitude, which Gorges' agent stated after their negotiations. Attempting to discredit Gorges' role as a shotblocking, defensive rock is laughable. Bad contracts like Markov's 6 million for a one legged dman who hasn't played a game, or 7.5 million for a guy who has less goals than Cam Ward over the past year, or Cammelleri's 6 million before he was shipped. Gorges is tied up for the prime of his career at a decent salary.

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02-05-2012, 11:03 AM
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So stupid.

Your argument for his plus minus is that it should be higher on a team that can't score and is sitting in the bottom 3 of the NHL?

So dumb.

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02-05-2012, 11:29 AM
  #25
Stradale
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If you can't see, understand, appreciate what Gorges bring to the team, you don't understand hockey.

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