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Larionov vs russian development

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Old
03-22-2012, 12:32 PM
  #76
Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta View Post
Not saying I agree or disagree - merely that I'm finding this conversation somewhat informative since I know very little about the Russian junior system.

But the argument below could be equated with football (soccer) here in the USA. All but of a handful of our top players leave America to compete in Europe (although at the junior level for the most part the American soccer programs seem to be doing a nice job of producing players).
I'm not an expert on Russian Junior Hockey either. But the Football comparison has a weakness: There is no basic difference between Football in Europe and Football in America. In Hockey on the other hand, you have significant differences like the rink size and the physicality of the game. I think the usual argument against going to North America is: In Russia, you learn a passing game, proper technical skills etc, all things Russian; while in the CHL, you just learn to chase and dump and to hit and take a hit. And the schedule in the CHL is tighter, you got fewer time to practice which could hurt your long-term development.

Edit: You could also add the fact that in Europe most junior teams belong to senior teams. The junior players a club is developing today could very well be their senior players of tomorrow. A CHL franchise on the other hand is not necessarily interested in the long-term development of their players. Yakupov is not going to be a Sarnia Sting in one or two years anyway, there's no tomorrow, there's only today for a CHL franchise.


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03-22-2012, 02:52 PM
  #77
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I guess there are many reasons for allowing 22 year olds to play in juniors:
1) many teams don't have VHL farms (when MHL started a lot more didn't then today)
2) lack of good junior players
3) traditionally Russians are believed to take longer to develop physically, so extra year body-punishment free may benefit the development.

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09-07-2013, 01:23 PM
  #78
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http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/09/0...ussian-players

Once idiot, still idiot. Or how Larionov keeps saying propaganda. Very dangerous attitude for your players.

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09-07-2013, 03:04 PM
  #79
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Shouldn't this thread be in the Russia section?

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09-07-2013, 06:18 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/09/0...ussian-players

Once idiot, still idiot. Or how Larionov keeps saying propaganda. Very dangerous attitude for your players.
Yes the things he says are stupid, and in no way benefits any of the party's involved, but, please, for the love of God, stop using word propoganda.

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09-08-2013, 02:34 AM
  #81
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Larionov is acting against the interests of his own clients for purely ideological reasons.

Andrei Loktionov would have gotten $3 million a year in Russia this season but Larionov "advised" him to stay in the NHL instead, because "Loktionov can always go to the KHL when he is 36". What a stupid advise.

From a financial perspective this was a horrible decision. Loktionov will never get that type of money in the NHL because he is not that good of a player. Larionov hurt his client's financial interests for his own ideological/political reasons.

And who is to say Loktionov can go to the KHL when is 36? He can get injured and never play hockey again before he turns 30.

I don't consider Larionov Russian anymore. He is Russian by birth but in his mind and heart he is American. He clearly has something against his country of birth and is doing his best to harm Russian hockey and young Russian prospects.

Russian players should stop hiring Larionov as their agent. I would not like to call him a "cancer" to Russian hockey but that he really is. He has the same effect to Russian hockey that cancer has to human body.

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09-08-2013, 02:42 AM
  #82
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But the worst thing about Larionov is that he lures 16-17 year old Russian prospects to North America before they are ready to go which practically destroys their hockey careers. These prospects are usually among the best in their age group in Russia.

But Russia has to take the blame also for letting Larionov do this. Larionov is only one person and Russia should be able to do something to prevent Larionov from harming Russian hockey.

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09-08-2013, 03:38 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozo View Post
Yes the things he says are stupid, and in no way benefits any of the party's involved, but, please, for the love of God, stop using word propoganda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Larionov is acting against the interests of his own clients for purely ideological reasons.
Ideology is always propoganda.Thx you Peter25

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09-08-2013, 08:34 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Larionov is acting against the interests of his own clients for purely ideological reasons.

Andrei Loktionov would have gotten $3 million a year in Russia this season but Larionov "advised" him to stay in the NHL instead, because "Loktionov can always go to the KHL when he is 36". What a stupid advise.

From a financial perspective this was a horrible decision. Loktionov will never get that type of money in the NHL because he is not that good of a player. Larionov hurt his client's financial interests for his own ideological/political reasons.

And who is to say Loktionov can go to the KHL when is 36? He can get injured and never play hockey again before he turns 30.

I don't consider Larionov Russian anymore. He is Russian by birth but in his mind and heart he is American. He clearly has something against his country of birth and is doing his best to harm Russian hockey and young Russian prospects.

Russian players should stop hiring Larionov as their agent. I would not like to call him a "cancer" to Russian hockey but that he really is. He has the same effect to Russian hockey that cancer has to human body.
That's rich, coming from a born and bred Finn...

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09-08-2013, 09:23 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Larionov is acting against the interests of his own clients for purely ideological reasons.

Andrei Loktionov would have gotten $3 million a year in Russia this season but Larionov "advised" him to stay in the NHL instead, because "Loktionov can always go to the KHL when he is 36". What a stupid advise.
I think your hate clouds your judgement now.

Loktionov isn't some 16 year old kid, he's 23 and makes his own decisions.

And since when is bigger contract considered the most important goal for a hockey player by you anti-NHLers? What happened to playing Russian combinational hockey at home?

If you want to talk about money - if Loktionov has a full decent NHL season, he may get way bigger offer than $3m in Russia. It's basically a great way to getting big money - go to the NA, fail to be an NHL regular and go cash in in the KHL. Loktionov doesn't have 30 career points, and he gets this offer. This is insane. Do you seriously think that Andrei would get anywhere close to these money if he had stayed in Russia?

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09-08-2013, 02:25 PM
  #86
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The only guys using him as an agent are guys coming to NA. In that case unfortunately, the amount of guys he is bringing over is more and more each year. He now has a track record with guys like Loktionov, Yakupov etc.. who have made it to the NHL to show the young guys as a convincing mechanism.

I read his book, you can tell after the first few pages that he is a strange kind of person. He made multiple references to the way he despised the Russian way and was excited to be in America, where he now continues to reside. The guy who says American with Russian passport is true. Young guys should also be warned this as well. He will not give independent advice to young guys, he will be biased towards North American methods.

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09-08-2013, 04:05 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Larionov is acting against the interests of his own clients for purely ideological reasons.
Perhaps you don't understand what an agent does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Andrei Loktionov would have gotten $3 million a year in Russia this season but Larionov "advised" him to stay in the NHL instead, because "Loktionov can always go to the KHL when he is 36". What a stupid advise.


From a financial perspective this was a horrible decision. Loktionov will never get that type of money in the NHL because he is not that good of a player. Larionov hurt his client's financial interests for his own ideological/political reasons.
It's perfectly possible Loktionov can earn 3 mil per year in the NHL. Will it definitely happen? No, but it is possible. Loktionov would have been aware of both offers and he chose the NHL. Not Larionov. Larionov may have "advised", but the player has his own free will. Larionov isn't a mind controller.

You may want to also consider the simple fact that Loktionov wanted to remain in the NHL and wanted to remain in North America. Perhaps he prefers his life in NJ. We are dealing with human lives here, and their feelings and perspective on their own paths are something we don't understand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
And who is to say Loktionov can go to the KHL when is 36? He can get injured and never play hockey again before he turns 30.
Get married and have kids at 16. Who isn't to say you won't be beaten to death by a janitor and his broom stick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
I don't consider Larionov Russian anymore. He is Russian by birth but in his mind and heart he is American. He clearly has something against his country of birth and is doing his best to harm Russian hockey and young Russian prospects.
You aren't Russian.

This is all nonsense. Plus, like yourself, Larionov is an individual. This idea that all beings care and act solely for a nationality purpose is beyond ludicrious. You think i have any particular affinity with young english footballers?

How can someone be American at heart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Russian players should stop hiring Larionov as their agent. I would not like to call him a "cancer" to Russian hockey but that he really is. He has the same effect to Russian hockey that cancer has to human body.
Cancer kills people. You don't select cancer by pressing the green button on the remote.

Larionov is a hockey agent chosen by clients at their own free will. If he wasn't an attractive proposition to work with, he wouldn't be successful. He also makes his agents money.


Last edited by The Nemesis: 09-08-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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09-08-2013, 06:05 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
The only guys using him as an agent are guys coming to NA. In that case unfortunately, the amount of guys he is bringing over is more and more each year. He now has a track record with guys like Loktionov, Yakupov etc.. who have made it to the NHL to show the young guys as a convincing mechanism.

I read his book, you can tell after the first few pages that he is a strange kind of person. He made multiple references to the way he despised the Russian way and was excited to be in America, where he now continues to reside. The guy who says American with Russian passport is true. Young guys should also be warned this as well. He will not give independent advice to young guys, he will be biased towards North American methods.
Replace Russian with Soviet. None of the posters here understand what it was like to be basically an instrument for a propaganda machine. After spending most of your life in a system with little freedom, to suddenly live in one where you weren't constantly followed or watched by your coach, can anyone really blame him for it? I recall him being fed up with the "old guard" still being in control of Russian hockey, thus him being unable to get anything done. That old guard still clings on to old ways, such as corruption(still very rooted in the Russian society) and shortsightedness, as many actual Russians living there have proven here. Maybe some day, in his lifetime, those people have given way to people more modern.

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09-08-2013, 10:34 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Replace Russian with Soviet. None of the posters here understand what it was like to be basically an instrument for a propaganda machine. After spending most of your life in a system with little freedom, to suddenly live in one where you weren't constantly followed or watched by your coach, can anyone really blame him for it? I recall him being fed up with the "old guard" still being in control of Russian hockey, thus him being unable to get anything done. That old guard still clings on to old ways, such as corruption(still very rooted in the Russian society) and shortsightedness, as many actual Russians living there have proven here. Maybe some day, in his lifetime, those people have given way to people more modern.
Yes Soviet, sorry. I agree. My only issue is that you would think that Larionov get involved and help the way hockey is run in his country so young guys don't go through same thing that he went through. Open a hockey school, GM a KHL team etc.. Like his good buddies Fedorov and Fetisov. Rather than just taking kids away from the Russian system, maybe he should do something to correct what he sees wrong with it. IMO he can influence positive change, not insult and distance himself and others from the league.

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09-09-2013, 02:23 AM
  #90
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@Jussi

I have to disagree. KHL created MHL and VHL to be able to develop better players. This system works, especially VHL. No reason to move to CHL/AHL, when you have MHL/VHL.

You are talking about "old guard", so about FHR. I would like to ask you what does "old guard" have to do with KHL/MHL/VHL? I guess nothing.

Everyone should make reseach before writing.

It is funny if you are talking about corruption in Russia. I would not be suprised if Larionov would be more corrupted than whole russian hockey. At least on same level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Yes Soviet, sorry. I agree. My only issue is that you would think that Larionov get involved and help the way hockey is run in his country so young guys don't go through same thing that he went through. Open a hockey school, GM a KHL team etc.. Like his good buddies Fedorov and Fetisov. Rather than just taking kids away from the Russian system, maybe he should do something to correct what he sees wrong with it. IMO he can influence positive change, not insult and distance himself and others from the league.
This. How does he want to help russian hockey if he takes players outside of system? It wont help russian hockey, it MIGHT help a few players, nothing more. As I said, there are MHL and VHL which works just fine. Not perfect but have been developing all the time. Larionov knows that fully developed system KHL-VHL-MHL would cause that russian players would not want to play CHL-AHL-NHL. He hates this vision.


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09-09-2013, 07:01 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Yes Soviet, sorry. I agree. My only issue is that you would think that Larionov get involved and help the way hockey is run in his country so young guys don't go through same thing that he went through. Open a hockey school, GM a KHL team etc.. Like his good buddies Fedorov and Fetisov. Rather than just taking kids away from the Russian system, maybe he should do something to correct what he sees wrong with it. IMO he can influence positive change, not insult and distance himself and others from the league.
He was working with KHL(the league or some club, can't remember anymore) but got fed up with the stubborness of the "old guard". He got nothing done due to them.

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09-09-2013, 07:05 AM
  #92
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Larionov knows that fully developed system KHL-VHL-MHL would cause that russian players would not want to play CHL-AHL-NHL. He hates this vision.
If Larionov was registered here, you would have been reported for libel. Please stop putting words in other people's mouths.

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09-10-2013, 06:07 AM
  #93
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I have a feeling Igor Larionov has made steps to ruin russian development system. He brings young kids to North America, what is generally bad for them (not all). He does not contribute to developing russian hockey. IMO he should work for russian leagues and help them. IMO he makes an enviroment - idea - that moving to NA is better than staying home. Is is bad attitude, bad for russian hockey.

http://allhockey.ru/news/114918/
stop that old whining song about Larionov. he has a point. he does what he feels is right. he helps a lot of players develop. that's more we should expect from an ex-player. he's not obliged to be the Savior of Russian Hockey. he's not a league or federation official. he has the right to have an opninion. if you don't agree with it, it's your problem. you need a target? go get the big to huge bunch of other agents who really ruin players. I may not agree with everything Larionov says, but most parts you and a lot of other ppl get offended by are just the ugly truth, whether you like it or not. and the guilty party in this are the army of russian sports and hockey officials who have let the whole russian development system deteriorate. Larionov definitely wasn't part of it. and now he's is only stating that he thinks developing in NA is a better way for most young players. seeing what it looks like in Russia in a lot of places I can't really argue against him and only have to say that he might be wrong. but then again, why should he think or do otherwise?

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09-10-2013, 06:49 AM
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He can help to rebuild system, which has been in proces of rebuilding. Taking players abroad is not a solution for russian hockey. It can help one player, but not a whole system.

Look at Sweden, ALL agents/scouts/coaches made a strategy of development and works according to it - no "Larionov".

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09-10-2013, 06:52 AM
  #95
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Quick question for you all.

Is there any pension plan and/or insurance plan for players in KHL?

I know in in NHL, if you have serious injury (career ending), you have at least a couple of Millions (that was in the Bryan Berard days, now, could be more). Also, once someone plays 400 games, he gets a minimum 250K starting at 55 plus 13K starting a 45.

An agent must keep that in mind... 400 games is 5 full seasons. In the long run, if the player can play his 400 games, wouldn't you advised him to stay in NHL for at least those 400 games?

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09-10-2013, 07:14 AM
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Quick question for you all.

Is there any pension plan and/or insurance plan for players in KHL?

I know in in NHL, if you have serious injury (career ending), you have at least a couple of Millions (that was in the Bryan Berard days, now, could be more). Also, once someone plays 400 games, he gets a minimum 250K starting at 55 plus 13K starting a 45.

An agent must keep that in mind... 400 games is 5 full seasons. In the long run, if the player can play his 400 games, wouldn't you advised him to stay in NHL for at least those 400 games?
There is, it's funded by union dues. The money are available after 15-20 seasons in Russia, 5 years since the last KHL/VHL contract expiration or a career ending injury.

And yeah, every player is insured by Sogaz too, just look at their helmets.

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09-10-2013, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tuker1980 View Post
Quick question for you all.

Is there any pension plan and/or insurance plan for players in KHL?

I know in in NHL, if you have serious injury (career ending), you have at least a couple of Millions (that was in the Bryan Berard days, now, could be more). Also, once someone plays 400 games, he gets a minimum 250K starting at 55 plus 13K starting a 45.

An agent must keep that in mind... 400 games is 5 full seasons. In the long run, if the player can play his 400 games, wouldn't you advised him to stay in NHL for at least those 400 games?
Yes, there is pension plan in KHL. Dont know detail.

Your argument makes sense of course, but I am not talking about NHLers.. I am talking about 16/17y kids.

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09-10-2013, 07:30 AM
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Yes, there is pension plan in KHL. Dont know detail.

Your argument makes sense of course, but I am not talking about NHLers.. I am talking about 16/17y kids.
I was more referencing to the person who brought up the Loktionov case.

The only thing I can say about Larionov is that he must not care about the hockey development of Russia as a country. He only cares about his clients, as individual. Fastest and best way to get to NHL is through NA to learn the NHL game. I think is serve the purpose for some players but not for others. I honestly think that which ever league Yakupov would of played, he would have land where he is regardless.

However, for a Ivan Telegin type of player, CHL might be appropriate for him.

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09-10-2013, 08:09 AM
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I was more referencing to the person who brought up the Loktionov case.

The only thing I can say about Larionov is that he must not care about the hockey development of Russia as a country. He only cares about his clients, as individual. Fastest and best way to get to NHL is through NA to learn the NHL game. I think is serve the purpose for some players but not for others. I honestly think that which ever league Yakupov would of played, he would have land where he is regardless.

However, for a Ivan Telegin type of player, CHL might be appropriate for him.
Bold - I see this argument, it is his job. On the other hand, if he criticise developing mode in Russia, I would expect he would try to do something. Take a kid to US/CAN is easy, but to create a system is a big job for decades.

Btw, Swedish agents/coaches united themself, they prefered THE SWEDISH SYSTEM above interests of clients. I would expect the same from Larionov. Yes, I know that Russia is complicated and there are meny reason for failures of implementing ideas (which Larionov could have) to life. That is not a reason to stop trying...

As someone said. Larionov is not Russian anymore, he is American. You have to study his behaviour for yrs to recognize it.

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09-10-2013, 08:34 AM
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Bold - I see this argument, it is his job. On the other hand, if he criticise developing mode in Russia, I would expect he would try to do something. Take a kid to US/CAN is easy, but to create a system is a big job for decades.

Btw, Swedish agents/coaches united themself, they prefered THE SWEDISH SYSTEM above interests of clients. I would expect the same from Larionov. Yes, I know that Russia is complicated and there are meny reason for failures of implementing ideas (which Larionov could have) to life. That is not a reason to stop trying...

As someone said. Larionov is not Russian anymore, he is American. You have to study his behaviour for yrs to recognize it.
Why do you expect the same from Larionov? Is it because you wish/expect that a Russian born individual would be more patriotic?

As for the Swedish system, I don't necessarily agree with you. In the last couple of years, more Swedish players have jumped to CHL. Last year, there were 14 totals (of approx. 120 available spot for euro, compare to 23 Russian). I think the fact that, until 2010, Swedish had to do military services impacted the amount on Swedish that went across the pond. Now that the military services is no longer mandatory, you see more Swedish kids making the jump. Will the trend continue, who knows.

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