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01-22-2012, 03:35 AM
  #126
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
I'm "anti-MAF" now? Why? Because I say he had a bad game when he had a bad game? Because I said he was playing poorly a couple years ago when he was, in fact, playing poorly?

Might want to take a look at the game tracker thread link you posted above. Not once in that thread do I say that MAF is an awful goalie or that he should be traded or waived. I simply said that, at the time of that thread, he was playing terribly and the we should ride the hot hand in Johnson and at least split time between the goalies evenly until Fleury gets his form back. I also said that I thought he was a middle of the pack starting goalie with occasional streaks of great play(which his numbers reflect clearly) and, while he's improved his play a bit the last two seasons, my opinion is still more or less the same.



Sorry, but where is this happening? For the last two seasons(after his rough patch at the beginning of last season) he's received nothing but universal praise for his steady play. In fact, if you look back through my posts, you'll see plenty of occasions where I said I was glad to see him turn things around and that I thought he was playing great(minus his puck handling which still drives me nuts). I just don't see all this Fleury bashing that you're talking about. There's been like two games this year that people have said he wasn't sharp.

Also, to say that you don't give him a free pass is a joke. You absolve him of every single goal he gives up by throwing the defense under the bus. Every single time you post in a +/- thread, it's always "the D hung MAF out to dry again!!". You jump on every little mistake Martin or Sullivan or Lovejoy or whoever your favorite whipping boy of the night is, then turn around and freak out when someone says Fleury had a weak game.


So with the exception of wins, which is a team stat, his individual numbers are around, or slightly above, average. Which is about what my opinion has been of him all along. An average starter that occasionally gets really hot. What's your point here? Am I meant to be blown away by a guy that has the 12th best save% in the league? Like I said, he's improved his play from where he was a couple years ago, which he should be praised for, but let's not act like he should have won the Vezina last year or something. Let's also not act like his improved play puts him above criticism if he has a rough night. Nobody else on the roster really has that luxury and Fleury shouldn't have it either.
More times than not you're overly critical of MAF in both +/- threads and GTDs and were very vocal in that thread. TBH I don't rember exactly who wanted to move MAF or whatever but I do remember you wanting BJ to take the starting job.

If you think he get's universal praise ythen you haven't been reading the GDTs or +/- threads. The majority of the board has been giving him praise but there are still a select few posters who will rarely ever give him any props.

So you're saying the D doesn't hang him out to dry? Really? They give up at least 1 break away and a handful of 2 on 1s a game.. To not admit that is just being blind.

And I don't give him a pass on every goal, I just realize that there are things that lead to goals and sometimes the goalie isn't at fault.

On numerous occasions I've broke down each goal in a game and analyzed the play that led up to the goal and the play MAF made, something that I haven't seen from those of you who like to give him minuses. In fact, I broke down all the goals from this game, which you feel he was bad in. This is the thing that get's me the most. It's easy to say "4 goals", "rebounds", "glove side" and put the blame all on MAFs shoulders without really looking at the play.

I'd love you to quote that post and give me your analysis on each play.

As for that last paragraph, I really don't see how having the 7th best GAA among starters last season is slightly above average. 12th in S% is also pretty good considering how many shots the Pens block, which cut down on outside shots that pad goalies S%. Not to mention that the Pens aren't a defense first team which will also pad a goalies stats.

TBH I really don't know what people expect from MAF. His wins don't count because it's a team stat?? Are you kidding me? You do realize that the Pens were only scoring 2.78 GPG and some guys names Crosby, Malkin and Staal all missed half a season each? Ya **** MAF, he was just a product of his team last year.

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01-22-2012, 03:38 AM
  #127
Captain Hook
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I don't think there's anything wrong with Fleury's salary. He's tied for the 9th highest cap hit amongst goalies right now and that doesn't include Rinne and Price both likely going up into the 7 million/per range next season, which will bump Fleury down to 11th. Jonathan Quick has yet to get his big payday either and he could shoot past him after next season.

The elite goalies can make 6-7 million/per while Fleury makes 5. It's not a bargain, but I think that's fair value for Fleury. It's not crazy to think he's a top 10 goalie and that's what he gets paid like.

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01-22-2012, 03:57 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
I don't think there's anything wrong with Fleury's salary. He's tied for the 9th highest cap hit amongst goalies right now and that doesn't include Rinne and Price both likely going up into the 7 million/per range next season, which will bump Fleury down to 11th. Jonathan Quick has yet to get his big payday either and he could shoot past him after next season.

The elite goalies can make 6-7 million/per while Fleury makes 5. It's not a bargain, but I think that's fair value for Fleury. It's not crazy to think he's a top 10 goalie and that's what he gets paid like.
This is a great point that not many seem to understand.

People love to ***** and moan about how much MAF makes and how he doesn't deserve it, yet fail to realize that there are many goalies making more than him. Many of which MAF is better then or close enough that the cap hit favors MAF.

Not to mention that the only way to get a starter via free agency is to vastly overpay him and hope he succeeds. Could you imagine how dumb Shero would look if he (like many want/wanted) moved MAF and signed Bryz for 9 years @ 5.66M??

People are soo quick to forget hoe dominant MAF was in those back to back SCF appearances. He had a bad season and a month, there's no denying that, but he's back to playing like he was in those Cup runs, which has me pretty excited.

Also, I think that many suffer from the mentality that "the grass is always greener" without really thinking about it logically. It's easy to say "replace MAF" but it's a bit harder to figure out who you're gonna replace him with and what it's gonna cost and if the benefit exceeds the cost.

I'd really love Super hater Rip (see what I did there and how cool it makes me look?), who has openly admitted a desire to move MAF, to give a few goalies he'd like to replace MAF with and how he'd go about getting them.

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Old
01-22-2012, 06:10 AM
  #129
TheSniper26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
More times than not you're overly critical of MAF in both +/- threads and GTDs and were very vocal in that thread. TBH I don't rember exactly who wanted to move MAF or whatever but I do remember you wanting BJ to take the starting job.
Uh, what? I don't know if you've noticed, but I don't post all that much. I've been a member here since early '05 and only have 692 posts in that time. Which shakes out to little more than one post a week. In three years less, you have ten times as many posts as I do. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm just putting into perspective how infrequent my posting is. So where you're getting this idea that I'm some regular poster in the GDTs and the +/- threads, and further that I'm in there bashing Fleury, I have no idea. Seems you've just made that up completely.

As for wanting to give Johnson the starting job in the game tracker thread, again, what? Surely you know the difference between "riding the hot hand" and changing starting goalies. I advocated for the former. One is clearly a temporary thing and the other isn't. In fact, I just looked through that game tracker thread and have already seen a post of mine saying that they need to get MAF back in net to rebuild his confidence. So again, this seems like another thing you've conjured up out of nothing.

Quote:
If you think he get's universal praise ythen you haven't been reading the GDTs or +/- threads. The majority of the board has been giving him praise but there are still a select few posters who will rarely ever give him any props.
Again, I'm not here that much. Maybe you're right, I don't know. All I know is that every time I am on here, it's usually nothing but praise for the guy(and deservedly so for the last 2 seasons).

Quote:
So you're saying the D doesn't hang him out to dry? Really? They give up at least 1 break away and a handful of 2 on 1s a game.. To not admit that is just being blind.

And I don't give him a pass on every goal, I just realize that there are things that lead to goals and sometimes the goalie isn't at fault.
More than any other team in the league? No, not really. Do you think Fleury's the only goalie that faces breakaways and odd man rushes? The Pens get their fair share of juicy chances too. In fact, as I said, we are usually out-chancing every team we play.

And to be honest, I think you do give him a free pass. We're never going to agree here. Where we differ is that I don't think each play is as black-and-white as you do. In your mind, if a dman turns the puck over, and then 20 seconds later it's in the net, then somehow it's still on that dman alone. As though it's ok if everyone else abandons their responsibilities because one guy screwed up first. But Fleury still has a responsibility to step up and make the save. That's his job. It's why he's there. He's the last line of defense.

If all a goalie had to do was stop perimeter shots where the D in front of him is 100% mistake-free, then every goalie would have a .970 save percentage. What separates the good goalies from the great goalies is how many of those "uh oh the D just ****ed up" chances end up in the back of the net. You seem to be under the impression that Fleury should only have to face easy, perimeter shots and that anything else is us having a poor defense that "hangs him out to dry".

Quote:
On numerous occasions I've broke down each goal in a game and analyzed the play that led up to the goal and the play MAF made, something that I haven't seen from those of you who like to give him minuses. In fact, I broke down all the goals from this game, which you feel he was bad in. This is the thing that get's me the most. It's easy to say "4 goals", "rebounds", "glove side" and put the blame all on MAFs shoulders without really looking at the play.

I'd love you to quote that post and give me your analysis on each play.
So when someone says something like "Fleury overplayed the pass" or "Fleury turned the puck over again behind the net" or "Fleury went down to early" or "Fleury gave up a bad rebound" or "Fleury was off his angle"... that's not a good enough analysis for you? Do we have to go back 20 or 30 seconds on every play until we find something someone else did wrong and then pin it all on that instead? Honestly man, the more you post about this, the more you come across like a guy that just isn't willing to admit that Fleury ever lets in bad goals or has bad nights. The very fact that you do go to such lengths, breaking down and detailing each goal in an attempt to absolve Fleury, is pretty telling.

Quote:
As for that last paragraph, I really don't see how having the 7th best GAA among starters last season is slightly above average. 12th in S% is also pretty good considering how many shots the Pens block, which cut down on outside shots that pad goalies S%. Not to mention that the Pens aren't a defense first team which will also pad a goalies stats.
Sorry, but yes, last season when their top two offensive players went down, they absolutely were a defense first team. Pretending that our team was anything less than stellar defensively last season, especially down the stretch, is pretty delusional. Fleury was a huge part of the team staying afloat last year, but again, let's not throw the whole team under the bus so we can fluff Fleury a little more.

As for the whole "the Pens blocked a lot of shots which hurt Fleury's numbers" theory that you have going on there, well, I'm not going to even touch that one.

Quote:
TBH I really don't know what people expect from MAF. His wins don't count because it's a team stat?? Are you kidding me? You do realize that the Pens were only scoring 2.78 GPG and some guys names Crosby, Malkin and Staal all missed half a season each? Ya **** MAF, he was just a product of his team last year.
Nobody is saying he was a product of the team. But you're acting like it was a one man show with Fleury standing on his head while the team played horribly in front of him. That wasn't the case at all. The fact that Johnson's numbers were comparable(slightly better actually) to Fleury's last season shows just how well the team was playing, defensively, in front of both of them.

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01-22-2012, 07:31 AM
  #130
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Fleury is one of those rare goalies that is both relatively consistent on a night to night basis, allowing few fluky goals and, for the most part, holding the fort. He also has the ability to steal games for the Penguins (2009 series against Philly, Game 4 comes to mind). And, as he's gotten older, his poor outings are becoming more of a rarity.

He's the goalie I dreamed the Pens would have during the late 90s / early 2000s. In many ways, goalie is the most difficult position to fill in hockey. Fleury should remain a Penguin until he is truly ineffective. That'll probably be when he retires.

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01-22-2012, 10:45 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
This is a great point that not many seem to understand.

People love to ***** and moan about how much MAF makes and how he doesn't deserve it, yet fail to realize that there are many goalies making more than him. Many of which MAF is better then or close enough that the cap hit favors MAF.

Not to mention that the only way to get a starter via free agency is to vastly overpay him and hope he succeeds. Could you imagine how dumb Shero would look if he (like many want/wanted) moved MAF and signed Bryz for 9 years @ 5.66M??

People are soo quick to forget hoe dominant MAF was in those back to back SCF appearances. He had a bad season and a month, there's no denying that, but he's back to playing like he was in those Cup runs, which has me pretty excited.

Also, I think that many suffer from the mentality that "the grass is always greener" without really thinking about it logically. It's easy to say "replace MAF" but it's a bit harder to figure out who you're gonna replace him with and what it's gonna cost and if the benefit exceeds the cost.

I'd really love Super hater Rip (see what I did there and how cool it makes me look?), who has openly admitted a desire to move MAF, to give a few goalies he'd like to replace MAF with and how he'd go about getting them.
Considering his age and career accomplishments, MAF'S contract is VERY fair. No, he may not be a top 3 or even top 5 goalie in the league, but he's definitely top 10 and he puts up the results when we need him to the most. Yes, fancy stats and individual awards are always nice to see, but in the end I'd still much rather have the guy that can get us results when we need him to. In essence MAF is like the Roethlisberger of the Pens: He won't wow you with his stats, and he'll occasionally make you want to punch a hole in your TV, but when push comes to shove he'll always come up clutch for you.

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Old
01-22-2012, 02:16 PM
  #132
Ragamuffin Gunner
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I'm not gonna go on another rant but for those who don't think that the Pens leave MAF out to dry, I'd say they should re-watch this Caps game.

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Old
01-22-2012, 02:38 PM
  #133
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I'm not gonna go on another rant but for those who don't think that the Pens leave MAF out to dry, I'd say they should re-watch this Caps game.
I think you should watch other teams play more often.

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