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Old
01-20-2012, 09:41 PM
  #1
Selanne138
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Ducks-Flyers

TO Anaheim:

James van Riemsdyk
Brayden Schenn
2012 1st Round Pick

TO Philadelphia:

Bobby Ryan
Toni Lydman
2012 3rd Round Pick

Im still not sold on trading Ryan, but I really like this value for Anaheim. Philly is getting the best player in the deal in Bobby Ryan, as well as a stay at home 2nd pairing guy to give them a veteran guy for their playoff run, and an early 3rd.

Anaheim gets a young replacement for Bobby in JVR, a 2nd line center prospect who is close to NHL ready, and a late 1st.

Would either fan base do this? I think the value is decent, but not sure if either side would pull the trigger.

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Old
01-20-2012, 09:45 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selanne138 View Post
TO Anaheim:

James van Riemsdyk
Brayden Schenn
2012 1st Round Pick

TO Philadelphia:

Bobby Ryan
Toni Lydman
2012 3rd Round Pick

Im still not sold on trading Ryan, but I really like this value for Anaheim. Philly is getting the best player in the deal in Bobby Ryan, as well as a stay at home 2nd pairing guy to give them a veteran guy for their playoff run, and an early 3rd.

Anaheim gets a young replacement for Bobby in JVR, a 2nd line center prospect who is close to NHL ready, and a late 1st.

Would either fan base do this? I think the value is decent, but not sure if either side would pull the trigger.

I personally wouldn't. I'm not speaking for each Flyers fan. I wouldn't move Schenn unless it's for Suter or Weber and then I'd be skeptical.

I'd love to give Schenn more time to prove his worth. Giroux - Schenn - Couts down the middle would look LOVELY.

Also, Schenn has already been playing in the NHL. He's just been injured a few times this season.

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Old
01-20-2012, 09:47 PM
  #3
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We need defensemen, not forwards.

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Old
01-20-2012, 09:54 PM
  #4
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yeah, the centre piece going back to Philly needs to be a top 2 Defense man and a top 9 winger. Value is good, but doesnt address Philly's needs.

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01-20-2012, 10:16 PM
  #5
BrindamoursNose
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I'm not pulling the trigger because I want a top defenseman, not a top winger if I'm giving up a JVR or Schenn.

Also, I have no ambition to give up both JVR and Schenn, let alone adding in a 1st round pick.

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01-20-2012, 10:30 PM
  #6
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Truthfully I don't know if I'd move Schenn at all. It's not terrible value. But I don't think it's what we'd be interested in at this time.


I'd be fine and have come to accept the fact that JvR and our first are probably our most sought after "available" pieces from my point of view.

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Old
01-20-2012, 10:37 PM
  #7
Selanne138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Truthfully I don't know if I'd move Schenn at all. It's not terrible value. But I don't think it's what we'd be interested in at this time.


I'd be fine and have come to accept the fact that JvR and our first are probably our most sought after "available" pieces from my point of view.
My thoughts were Bobby Ryan was worth more than JVR+your 1st, but less than JVR+Schenn. To me Lydman's value is 2nd+Prospect, and I thought it kinda balanced out how I did it.

I knew Philly needed a D-Man and I think Lydman would be a good fit for you guys. Id be fine to switch Schenn and Couturier, but I figured Couturier was untouchable. Other than those two and Giroiux who obviously isnt coming back, theres really no one I see as being the young center we need.

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01-20-2012, 10:43 PM
  #8
BrindamoursNose
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Originally Posted by Selanne138 View Post
My thoughts were Bobby Ryan was worth more than JVR+your 1st, but less than JVR+Schenn. To me Lydman's value is 2nd+Prospect, and I thought it kinda balanced out how I did it.

I knew Philly needed a D-Man and I think Lydman would be a good fit for you guys. Id be fine to switch Schenn and Couturier, but I figured Couturier was untouchable. Other than those two and Giroiux who obviously isnt coming back, theres really no one I see as being the young center we need.
The thing is, we don't really need Ryan, and I'd rather get someone better than Lydman. With Timonen going in a year, we need a legit #1 d-man.

Also, I'd trade Schenn any day over Couturier...don't include him in trades because I don't think it will go over well with most fans. I'd rather keep all of those assets and trade a 2nd for Hal Gill for now.

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01-20-2012, 10:47 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
The thing is, we don't really need Ryan, and I'd rather get someone better than Lydman. With Timonen going in a year, we need a legit #1 d-man.

Also, I'd trade Schenn any day over Couturier...don't include him in trades because I don't think it will go over well with most fans. I'd rather keep all of those assets and trade a 2nd for Hal Gill for now.
But don't you have Pronger for like 10 more years?

It would be a hard for me to get behind trading Ryan but I dont think the value is far off in this trade.

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Old
01-20-2012, 11:04 PM
  #10
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way too much for Ryan and I like Ryan.

I do not see any other team paying such price.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 01-20-2012 at 11:15 PM.
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01-20-2012, 11:47 PM
  #11
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Far too much for Ryan and besides, we need another defenceman...not forwards.....

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01-20-2012, 11:54 PM
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Why is it far too much for Ryan?

Ryan is a 35-70 guy with potential to be a 40-90 guy. And Lydman is a stay at home 2nd pairing guy. The 3rd is there to give Philly a pick, and to balance it out a little.

JVR has 35-70 potential IMO, aka what Ryan is now, so you have to add to get Ryan. Schenn is a great prospect, but he is still just a prospect. The late first is a late first.

I can understand if youd rather use those assets to get a top defenseman instead, but I dont think the value is bad. Slight overpayment from Philly, but itd take one to land Ryan.

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Old
01-21-2012, 12:09 AM
  #13
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So the difference between possible 90pts Ryan and possible 70pts JVR is possble 2nd line center Schenn?

On top of that Flyers trade 1st for 34 year old Lydman but getting 3rd back for balance?

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Old
01-21-2012, 12:20 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
So the difference between possible 90pts Ryan and possible 70pts JVR is possble 2nd line center Schenn?

On top of that Flyers trade 1st for 34 year old Lydman but getting 3rd back for balance?
Seeing as Ryan is MUCH closer to his potential then yes I think it is. Those are their potentials, who knows who reaches them. Right now, its a 40point winger and a prospect with 9 NHL games for a 70 point winger and a proven Top 4 dman.

You have to look at current state and potential not one or the other.

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Old
01-21-2012, 12:24 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
So the difference between possible 90pts Ryan and possible 70pts JVR is possble 2nd line center Schenn?

On top of that Flyers trade 1st for 34 year old Lydman but getting 3rd back for balance?
No the difference is that Bobby Ryan has already proven himself to be a premier winger and JVR hasn't. The difference is a good prospect and a late 1st.

You are just using hypothetical point totals to justify your opinion. Look at the real point totals.

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01-21-2012, 12:32 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by jpallday View Post
No the difference is that Bobby Ryan has already proven himself to be a premier winger and JVR hasn't. The difference is a good prospect and a late 1st.
True but Schenn is a little more then just a 'good' prospect and that 1st round pick for 34yo Lydman is also overpayment.

HF is all about what have you done for me lately. We just need to take our time with Schenn and JVR. No rush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpallday View Post
You are just using hypothetical point totals to justify your opinion. Look at the real point totals.
Hey I am just using whatever hypothetical value Selanne138 came up with.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 01-21-2012 at 12:41 AM.
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Old
01-21-2012, 12:41 AM
  #17
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Well if Ryan is going to the Flyers then Schenn is coming back. Is Schenn worth Ryan? No. Is JVR the difference? That's probably a little too much. That's why Lydman makes up for that little bit while providing the Flyers with a D-man. As far as the first and the 3rd I'm not sure why we are switching picks. It almost seems like every single trade now days needs to involve some kind of pick swap. But with the current deal that the OP suggested, I would upgrade the ducks pick to a 2nd and that should be pretty close to even.

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Old
01-21-2012, 12:44 AM
  #18
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Honestly, I really hate the value for the Flyers in this deal.

Lydman has been garbage this year and is honestly a minimal improvement over what we currently have. He's a #5/#6 on the Flyers... I'd put that value well lower than a 2nd and a prospect... especially when the value on guys like Gleason or Gill are the exact same and they are much bigger improvements to the Flyers defense.

And then we come to Ryan... he's put up 70 points before... but he did so on a line w/ Getzlaf and Perry. To me, this makes a difference. Take Scott Hartnell for example... do I think he continues to be a point per game player if I remove him from Giroux's wing? No, I don't. Same type thing happens w/ Ryan. He's obviously a better player than Hartnell, but do I think his production drops if I give him lower quality linemates than Perry & Getzlaf? Yes, I do.

Ryan has also taken a significant step backwards this year, pacing for just over 30 goals and just over 50 total points, rather than taking the leap forward everyone would've liked to have seen. And unlike JVR (who has been injured since game 19 and some rumors say he was never 100% this season), Ryan doesn't really have a good excuse for his poor performance.

In the end, I'd feel uncomfortable giving up JVR + Schenn for this package that doesn't address our biggest need, doesn't really make the team all that much better for this playoff run, and has the chance to seriously blow up in our faces down the line. When you add in the 1st, it's pretty bad IMO.

I love Ryan, would like to have him in Philly, but not at this price.

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Old
01-21-2012, 12:46 AM
  #19
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Well if Ryan is going to the Flyers then Schenn is coming back. Is Schenn worth Ryan? No. Is JVR the difference? That's probably a little too much. That's why Lydman makes up for that little bit while providing the Flyers with a D-man.
So hold on a second Lydman is in to make up the difference?

Lydman is worth what? 3rd maybe 2nd round pick? I mean.. come on now.

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01-21-2012, 12:47 AM
  #20
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Honestly, I really hate the value for the Flyers in this deal.

Lydman has been garbage this year and is honestly a minimal improvement over what we currently have. He's a #5/#6 on the Flyers... I'd put that value well lower than a 2nd and a prospect... especially when the value on guys like Gleason or Gill are the exact same and they are much bigger improvements to the Flyers defense.

And then we come to Ryan... he's put up 70 points before... but he did so on a line w/ Getzlaf and Perry. To me, this makes a difference. Take Scott Hartnell for example... do I think he continues to be a point per game player if I remove him from Giroux's wing? No, I don't. Same type thing happens w/ Ryan. He's obviously a better player than Hartnell, but do I think his production drops if I give him lower quality linemates than Perry & Getzlaf? Yes, I do.

Ryan has also taken a significant step backwards this year, pacing for just over 30 goals and just over 50 total points, rather than taking the leap forward everyone would've liked to have seen. And unlike JVR (who has been injured since game 19 and some rumors say he was never 100% this season), Ryan doesn't really have a good excuse for his poor performance.

In the end, I'd feel uncomfortable giving up JVR + Schenn for this package that doesn't address our biggest need, doesn't really make the team all that much better for this playoff run, and has the chance to seriously blow up in our faces down the line. When you add in the 1st, it's pretty bad IMO.

I love Ryan, would like to have him in Philly, but not at this price.
The deal might be overpayment in your opinion, but I think it definitely makes Philly better for this upcoming playoff run.

You add a premier winger and a top 4 stay at home defenceman. JVR has been playing injured all year and Schenn hasn't been able to make a significant impact yet.

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01-21-2012, 12:51 AM
  #21
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So what Leafs are trying to offer for Ryan I bet it's not even close to JVR and Schenn value

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01-21-2012, 12:53 AM
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So what Leafs are trying to offer for Ryan I bet it's not even close to JVR and Schenn value
Obviously not, but what does that have to do with this thread?

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01-21-2012, 12:59 AM
  #23
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Obviously not, but what does that have to do with this thread?
Obviously nothing. But nice try explaining why Ryan worth JVR & Schenn


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01-21-2012, 01:05 AM
  #24
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The deal might be overpayment in your opinion, but I think it definitely makes Philly better for this upcoming playoff run.

You add a premier winger and a top 4 stay at home defenceman. JVR has been playing injured all year and Schenn hasn't been able to make a significant impact yet.
Allow me to rephrase... it doesn't make us better to the point that I think we're significant playoff contenders. We still have a giant problem on defense, and we would have created a hole down on the middle on the 3rd or 4th line (Schenn and Couturier are our 3rd/4th line centers right now).

And again, Lydman isn't someone I would want, and on top of that, I think the value isn't good @ all.

JVR is 2 years younger than Ryan and is only 22 years old. An injured JVR that has had his lines juggled all year and has been playing w/ a horrible Briere and a rookie Schenn as his centers for most of the year is pacing for 24-24-48 while a perfectly healthy Bobby Ryan who is once again playing w/ Perry and Getz is pacing for 31-20-51.

Is the difference there really Schenn + 1st? I could wrap my head around the 1st... and that might make sense for both teams what with Getz and Perry due for raises soon... the long term price certainty of JVR would look nice to Anaheim and of course having the home town Ryan in Philly would be cool. But adding Schenn? Non starter IMO. Not willing to trade Richards+ for Ryan... and that's essentially what you're asking for here.

I can respect that Anaheim fans might disagree, etc. But as someone who watches pretty much every Flyers game and has seen what JVR is capable of, I'm reluctant to let him go @ all. And if he were to go, it wouldn't be in a 3 for 1 deal (w/ Schenn and our 1st as the other assets) for a 20 pt upgrade on the left wing.

And just as an aside, I think JVR has every bit the same amount of potential as Ryan... perhaps more. Ryan is obviously more likely to finish as a better player than JVR, noone will dispute that as he's already a proven NHL star, but there are very few players in this league that have dominated every shift the way JVR did against Boston.

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Old
01-21-2012, 01:09 AM
  #25
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Obviously nothing. But nice try explaining why Ryan worth JVR & Schenn
Because Anaheim doesn't have to trade him? Pretty self-explanatory.

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