Ok Windsor Spitfire fans we have 10 games left in the season and sit 7th in the West with a record of 25-27-6 for 56 Points. We are 8 points back of Sarnia, 7 points back of Owensound (5th), 5 points back of Saginaw (6th), 4 points up on SSM and 5 points up on Guelph. Owensound, Saginaw, SSM have a game in hand while Guelph has 2 games in hand with us playing Saginaw, Sarnia, and SSM Twice in the final 10 games.
Does this team have what it takes to make the Playoffs.......
That being said about Alonge - he has stepped up his play recently, and looks like a guy who can take a regular shift in this league. It will be interesting to see him with an off-season in Windsor and then hit camps and next season with a year under his belt and knowing what to expect with the league. If we don't have a spot for him here, he's good enough to have a spot some where in the league.
Ok Windsor Spitfire fans we have 10 games left in the season and sit 7th in the West with a record of 25-27-6 for 56 Points. We are 8 points back of Sarnia, 7 points back of Owensound (5th), 5 points back of Saginaw (6th), 4 points up on SSM and 5 points up on Guelph. Owensound, Saginaw, SSM have a game in hand while Guelph has 2 games in hand with us playing Saginaw, Sarnia, and SSM Twice in the final 10 games.
Does this team have what it takes to make the Playoffs.......
I think we're a lock to make the play-offs. Three point weekend last week was key for us. I don't think catching Saginaw is out of the question either.
That being said about Alonge - he has stepped up his play recently, and looks like a guy who can take a regular shift in this league. It will be interesting to see him with an off-season in Windsor and then hit camps and next season with a year under his belt and knowing what to expect with the league. If we don't have a spot for him here, he's good enough to have a spot some where in the league.
I`m with you on Alonge. He has shown that he can play effectively for a guy who`ll drop the mitts. I see no reason why he can`t play the Adam Wallace role for next year`s team at least. He surprised me a couple of times with his puck skills, he`s not a bad player at all. I think it`s too easy to get caught up in worrying about the 2014 roster and who`ll be around by then. It seems to be popular to want to jettison any guys who won`t be around, but some of them can be useful next year.
Given a couple more seasons there is no reason why Bilcke can't be in a position where he is somewhere between Greenop and Devane. Both of those two were seen primarily as fighters. Greenop remained in that role and was an important member of the team in 08/09 while Devane developed into a fair bit more but most of that came the last two seasons. Yes they both have better stats lines as 17 year olds but if the effort is there there is no reason why Bilcke doesn't end up somewhere in between those two and if you can have him bring the physical aspect with an improved game as a fourth liner in 2014 then I see no reason why he would not be just as important as Greenop was in 08/09 to this team down the road.
As for Alonge, I think he will be a better OA in 2014 than Wallace would have been last season. Both have similar abilities while Alonge looks to be the better of the two overall.
We had both Greenop and Wallace when needed in 08/09 as well as Wallace being a decent member of the team in 09/10. If we have both Alonge and Bilcke in 2014 filing roles from the fourth line, both being reliable then what is the problem with having them both? This team runs mainly with three lines and while I can see the arguement about Alonge taking up an OA spot if he is capable of filing a third line role but there is only space on the fourth line then so be it, it becomes a testament to the depth that we hopefully have in 2014.
As for some of the other kids being mentioned as not possibly being here in 2014, there is merit to this. Some of these kids should be at least second or third line players. They are not going to contribute effectively from the fourth line and they do not bring the intangibles you need from the fourth line guys. If you need icetime to contribute then playing ten shifts a game you will not contribute a whole lot. If you can't bring the physical game needed from the fourth line players then they are wasting away as well as wasting a spot on the roster. Both the kids and the team loses in that respect. Give them a chance to move on while still adding to this teams future if the right deal comes along.
i think they both belong on the team but if we could get an upgraded alonge like Thomas in Sarnia im all for it. Bilcke still needs time to adjust to the speed and spending an offseason in Windsor wont hurt him, my only argument was if we keep have to choose then id choose Alonge over Bilcke as we have younger players who could use the ice time alot more then someone who has a fight every game or every other game.
if a player is a crowed favorite then we love him give him time blah blah blah
sure i love to bilcke beats the hell out of someoen but looking at this from a hockey sence and not a fan
all year i was on here saying lets trade czinder and everyone was almost coming down on me ...
then czinder SH** the bed and everyone started saying lets trade him ....
i donno im just looking at it from someone who played high hockey who coaches high hockey and who under stands high hockey
and i tell you right now that next year alonge and bilcke one of them wont be on the team
and i think we should move bilcke ... hes a good kid but not good enough to be on this team ... who wants to make a top 4 finish next year and a mem cup the following
Izzy I was in favor of Czinder being dealt but I also thought he didn't hold a lot of value so it didn't matter to me what he they did with him.
As for Alonge and Bilcke I think having one or two of those guys is a luxury and not necessarily a necessity. Who cleans up the mess in Plymouth? They don't have a guy that is like Bilcke or Alonge they have guys that take care of their own business and still produce eg. Wilson, Devane, Heard, Payne and Alonge has his little feud with Miller. Back when the Spits were good and had Greenop and Wallace that was a luxury because they had 3 lines that all could score goals and defenseman that could chip in a lot. If you have a team that can really put the puck in the net I think it's fine to keep both Alonge and Bilcke around but if your team is still having issues scoring goals it's not productive to have two of them on your team.
because 4th line players are SUCH an integral part to a championship team. Dont give me the crap about "giving the ice for someone else to develop".... yeah all 6 minutes a game.
Back when the Spits were good and had Greenop and Wallace that was a luxury because they had 3 lines that all could score goals and defenseman that could chip in a lot.
Perhaps this is more of an issue than having Bilcke/Alonge is. When we have three lines that can produce, having a fourth line with toughness is a luxury. When we don't have three lines that produce, the fourth line has to, so people don't want Bilcke/Alonge. Instead of saying we don't need toughness, which is false, ask where our goal scoring is going to be.
Ok Windsor Spitfire fans we have 10 games left in the season and sit 7th in the West with a record of 25-27-6 for 56 Points. We are 8 points back of Sarnia, 7 points back of Owensound (5th), 5 points back of Saginaw (6th), 4 points up on SSM and 5 points up on Guelph. Owensound, Saginaw, SSM have a game in hand while Guelph has 2 games in hand with us playing Saginaw, Sarnia, and SSM Twice in the final 10 games.
Does this team have what it takes to make the Playoffs.......
I think Windsor makes the playoffs. Sarnia, Owen Sound and Saginaw are out of the picture it's either 7th or 8th. One correction Guelph has 3 games in hand. The odds are certainly in Windsor's favor but they still need to have a real good weekend at some point. Guelph has 3 left with Erie and 1 with Kingston. If Guelph was able to cut the lead down to 3 points with 3 in hand you would probably have to give Guelph a slight edge. Windsor still hasn't gotten much seperation from Sault in the past month either. Sault has Erie this week so it's important that Windsor at the very least gets a split of their 2 games.
because 4th line players are SUCH an integral part to a championship team. Dont give me the crap about "giving the ice for someone else to develop".... yeah all 6 minutes a game.
I think having decent 4th liners is more important than you think not necessarily from a development standpoint though. Yes garbage ice for 6 minutes isn't good but practising against top prospects and learning systems are just as important. Look at 08/09 the Spitfire forwards at the start and end of the season.
Arguably your 4th line was a mix of Greenop Lalonde Yogan and ODonnell
Yogan had some potential and was used to get Maxwell.
Maxwell was used in a deal along with Lalonde to get Timmins
Eventually through those trades of getting Timmins and MacDermid, Watson was demoted to 4th line another highly skilled 4th liner.
As you can see at one time they did have skilled 4th liners such as Yogan and Watson who were used as bait to get other skilled players in Windsor. Right now you couldn't give Alonge away, Bilcke might have value but certainly not more than a Yogan or Watson. Hopefully drafting improves to the point where they can have skilled guys on the 4th line to develop or use as trade bait because right now that isn't the case.
Perhaps this is more of an issue than having Bilcke/Alonge is. When we have three lines that can produce, having a fourth line with toughness is a luxury. When we don't have three lines that produce, the fourth line has to, so people don't want Bilcke/Alonge. Instead of saying we don't need toughness, which is false, ask where our goal scoring is going to be.
I don't disagree with what you have said but toughness doesn't necessarily mean dropping the gloves. Windsor doesn't have guys that produce but why is it Plymouth's forwards can play tough and answer the bell but Windsor doesn't always have that with their guys. The one comment people have here commonly said is that Windsor is pretty soft this year, the D isn't really physical, the forwards may have some size but player smaller than that. Alonge and Bilcke can't do everything for the team some players should have to start playing bigger and not play so soft.
I don't disagree with what you have said but toughness doesn't necessarily mean dropping the gloves. Windsor doesn't have guys that produce but why is it Plymouth's forwards can play tough and answer the bell but Windsor doesn't always have that with their guys. The one comment people have here commonly said is that Windsor is pretty soft this year, the D isn't really physical, the forwards may have some size but player smaller than that. Alonge and Bilcke can't do everything for the team some players should have to start playing bigger and not play so soft.
Again, though, that's not on Bilcke/Alonge. That's on everyone else. While team toughness may be an issue right now, you still need those one or two guys who can drop 'em with authority when needed. You don't think Wallace or Greenop were valuable in the Cup runs? That's what we have now, version 2.0. Besides, not every team can have guys who put up 30-40 points a year and can fight the toughest possible like Devane or Kassian. They're a rare breed.
The one thing Windsor seems to be missing is that team toghness, to go along with the lack of offence.
While having some skill on the fourth line is nice, Yogan and Watson are perfect examples Windsor also had team toughness to go along with that skill that was on the fourth line.
Windsor could, at anytime put a line out there that could score on you and still go toe to toe with you if they wanted to. That is what is missing at this point and until that time they need to keep a couple of players like Alonge and Bilcke, or upgrade if there are upgrades available.
Thomas in Sarnia would be a nice upgrade on Alonge but we will have to see what happens in the off season. Isn't there off ice issues with him though? Wasn't he moved from the Soo over issues and now he has issues in Sarnia as well?
As for the playoffs
Windsor should be there, I don't know if they finish 7th or 8th but I figure they will be there.
When you look at the top 3 in the conference right now, even though London is sitting on top I think Windsor's best shot at any playoff success would be to draw them in the first round. They nave played them solid for the most part this season and Plymouth will just be a physical force come the playoffs I think London is the one team that while they may have the most skill they are not the most physical team. Windsor needs to add to the team toughness part but they match up fairly decent in the physical part of the game against London.
The thing about the teams we had the last say 4-5 years was that you had guys like Henrique, Wellwood, Timmins, MacDermid, Renaud, Shugg, Nolan, Snetzinger, Ryan, Kassian, Johnston, Brown, Carrick who could not only play Shutdown but could hit and score as well so not only did you have 3 good lines of players who could score but had players who could also la the body and help out the defence where as this team really only has Koko and Vail who really come back to help out the Defence if we turn over the puck
Again, though, that's not on Bilcke/Alonge. That's on everyone else. While team toughness may be an issue right now, you still need those one or two guys who can drop 'em with authority when needed. You don't think Wallace or Greenop were valuable in the Cup runs? That's what we have now, version 2.0. Besides, not every team can have guys who put up 30-40 points a year and can fight the toughest possible like Devane or Kassian. They're a rare breed.
Do I think Wallace and Greenop had value? Sure but I wouldn't put them ahead of Hall, Henrique, Timmins, Nemisz, Engelage, Grubauer, Fowler, Wellwood etc.. etc.. I think if you look hard there are guys that can fight and put up 30-40 points eg. Devane, Rupert, Thomson, Halmo, Brace, Carrick and if he was in the OHL all year a guy like Randell could do it as well. Part of it has to do with better drafting but for the most part the Spits don't have guys that play with a lot of jam.
The one thing Windsor seems to be missing is that team toghness, to go along with the lack of offence.
While having some skill on the fourth line is nice, Yogan and Watson are perfect examples Windsor also had team toughness to go along with that skill that was on the fourth line.
Windsor could, at anytime put a line out there that could score on you and still go toe to toe with you if they wanted to. That is what is missing at this point and until that time they need to keep a couple of players like Alonge and Bilcke, or upgrade if there are upgrades available.
Thomas in Sarnia would be a nice upgrade on Alonge but we will have to see what happens in the off season. Isn't there off ice issues with him though? Wasn't he moved from the Soo over issues and now he has issues in Sarnia as well?
As for the playoffs
Windsor should be there, I don't know if they finish 7th or 8th but I figure they will be there.
When you look at the top 3 in the conference right now, even though London is sitting on top I think Windsor's best shot at any playoff success would be to draw them in the first round. They nave played them solid for the most part this season and Plymouth will just be a physical force come the playoffs I think London is the one team that while they may have the most skill they are not the most physical team. Windsor needs to add to the team toughness part but they match up fairly decent in the physical part of the game against London.
I think Thomas is trouble he couldn't stick around in Sarnia, was suspended for over a month in Jr B. Not sure why Windsor would take a chance on him when there was somebody similar in Dane Fox but he was actually able to stay on the right track and contribute.
Either Plymouth or London would be a tough matchup and I agree with you. I would hesitate to draw much from regular season meetings. The only reason I say that is London plays bad against Windsor on Friday and you have to give credit to Windsor for the way they played. London then rebounds and dominates a much stronger team in Kitchener.
Having a legit heavyweight on the end of the bench adds two inches and about 10 lbs to every other player on the roster. Team toughness comes from knowing if the **** hits the fan, you know you're going to be taken care of. Right now we don't have that as Bilcke isn't in that level yet - he could reach that level in the next couple of years.
It's easy to be tougher on the ice when you hit and fight with the other skill line guys knowing that you won't have to answer to their tough guy because your guy will handle it. Right now say you take a borderline liberty with a Whaler player - Devane is going to look for some hockey justice later on - but if you have a guy like Greenop who says to Devane "I'm your huckleberry" and has a good chance to win the scrap you feel more at ease to play with a little more edge in your game. Similarly if you're jumped by some other fool you know Greener is going to pound out that fool or that teams goon to send a message.
When you have 19-20 yr olds playing against 16-17 yr olds, intimidation is real.
Having a legit heavyweight on the end of the bench adds two inches and about 10 lbs to every other player on the roster. Team toughness comes from knowing if the **** hits the fan, you know you're going to be taken care of. Right now we don't have that as Bilcke isn't in that level yet - he could reach that level in the next couple of years.
It's easy to be tougher on the ice when you hit and fight with the other skill line guys knowing that you won't have to answer to their tough guy because your guy will handle it. Right now say you take a borderline liberty with a Whaler player - Devane is going to look for some hockey justice later on - but if you have a guy like Greenop who says to Devane "I'm your huckleberry" and has a good chance to win the scrap you feel more at ease to play with a little more edge in your game. Similarly if you're jumped by some other fool you know Greener is going to pound out that fool or that teams goon to send a message.
When you have 19-20 yr olds playing against 16-17 yr olds, intimidation is real.
I would be curious to hear who you think is the heavyweight for Niagara one of the hottest teams in the CHL over the past 3 months? Or Ottawa one of the other better teams in the east?
I would be curious to hear who you think is the heavyweight for Niagara one of the hottest teams in the CHL over the past 3 months? Or Ottawa one of the other better teams in the east?
Sure you can cherry pick two teams to try and make your point. Last time I checked there was 20 teams in the league. Windsor has always been a toughguy team. Niagara has nineteen 18-20 yr olds on their roster. Ottawa is 8th in the league in fighting majors.
Windsor is first by a long shot - 91 total. However Bilcke, Alonge and Bowen account for 56 of those - all 2-3 shift players (until recently in Alonge's case). That means our regulars account for 35 fights - and of those 35 fights, our guys record is probably 5-30.
So if you don't have a team of guys who can candle their own, they're going to be intimidated on the ice. Do you think Vail or Johnson or Ebert will play with an edge if they think they'll have to drop the gloves and get pounded on?
Do I think Wallace and Greenop had value? Sure but I wouldn't put them ahead of Hall, Henrique, Timmins, Nemisz, Engelage, Grubauer, Fowler, Wellwood etc.. etc.. I think if you look hard there are guys that can fight and put up 30-40 points eg. Devane, Rupert, Thomson, Halmo, Brace, Carrick and if he was in the OHL all year a guy like Randell could do it as well. Part of it has to do with better drafting but for the most part the Spits don't have guys that play with a lot of jam.
Okay, are we really comparing Wallace and Greenop to Brett Thomson, Ryan Rupert, Mike Halmo, and Riley Brace?
The guys listed might have jam, but if push came to shove, I wouldn't want them in a tango with just about anyone. Their value is there, but it's a very different value than Wallace/Greenop. It's certainly not a protection value, which is what you need.
Otto is bang on with his post.
Quote:
I would be curious to hear who you think is the heavyweight for Niagara one of the hottest teams in the CHL over the past 3 months? Or Ottawa one of the other better teams in the east?
Ottawa is easy...Dalton Smith. He doesn't go much, but sure as hell can throw with the best and actually did very well against the beast in Ptbo, Derek Mathers.
Niagara has Mitch Bennett who, while he doesn't go even as much as Smith, can certainly hold his own against anyone.
If we're going down this path, though, just to prevent teams from being named...
Ottawa - Dalton Smith
Ptbo - Derek Mathers
Blv - Adam Payerl
Kgn - Stokes
Oshawa - Maggio, Clark
Bmp - O'Neil
Miss - Syrette (similar boat as Bilcke)
Sby - Sefton/Thibodeau
Bar - Terreri
Nia - Bennett
Ply - Devane
Sar - one of the few teams that doesn't
SSM - Broll
Wsr - Bilcke
Sag - Had Camara, but dealt him.
Kitch - Sol
Ldn - Flemington
Er - McGuire
Gue - Turcotte/Bertuzzi/Auger (similar boat to Windsor...rookie filled roster)
OS - Zweep
See my point? Many teams have one or two guys who protect. Some are veterans, some are like Bilcke who are making a name for themselves now.
Sure you can cherry pick two teams to try and make your point. Last time I checked there was 20 teams in the league. Windsor has always been a toughguy team. Niagara has nineteen 18-20 yr olds on their roster. Ottawa is 8th in the league in fighting majors.
Windsor is first by a long shot - 91 total. However Bilcke, Alonge and Bowen account for 56 of those - all 2-3 shift players (until recently in Alonge's case). That means our regulars account for 35 fights - and of those 35 fights, our guys record is probably 5-30.
So if you don't have a team of guys who can candle their own, they're going to be intimidated on the ice. Do you think Vail or Johnson or Ebert will play with an edge if they think they'll have to drop the gloves and get pounded on?
I am not cherry picking teams I just used two real good teams as examples of the fact you don't need a heavyweight to win games and be successful. Would you say Flemington is the heavyweight for London? He usually dresses against Windsor but he's not a regular by any means.
I would say neither of Vail, Johnson or Ebert have played with an edge consistently. You see it from time to time but I would not say they play big even with guys like Bilcke and Alonge dressed every game.
Overall I would say these "heavyweights" are going the way of the dodo bird. It's nice to have one around but since there are only a few in the OHL it tells me teams really don't look for one or they want one that can do that and do other things on the ice.
I am not cherry picking teams I just used two real good teams as examples of the fact you don't need a heavyweight to win games and be successful. Would you say Flemington is the heavyweight for London? He usually dresses against Windsor but he's not a regular by any means.
I would say neither of Vail, Johnson or Ebert have played with an edge consistently. You see it from time to time but I would not say they play big even with guys like Bilcke and Alonge dressed every game.
Overall I would say these "heavyweights" are going the way of the dodo bird. It's nice to have one around but since there are only a few in the OHL it tells me teams really don't look for one or they want one that can do that and do other things on the ice.
Flemington will certainly be used in games where nasty could happen. If not, though, Jared Tinordi is more than capable being 6'7 225 and all. He's not GREAT, but few will test him.
While the enforcers can do more than just fight, most of the time, my point still stands - everyone has a legit big guy who can throw down.
Flemington will certainly be used in games where nasty could happen. If not, though, Jared Tinordi is more than capable being 6'7 225 and all. He's not GREAT, but few will test him.
While the enforcers can do more than just fight, most of the time, my point still stands - everyone has a legit big guy who can throw down.
And I stand by my point for the toughness the Spitfires have the players haven't really played big, they have been timid and soft. I thought a tough guy was supposed to give players comfort to know they can go out and play big and the tough guys will clean things up. Overall I think this heavyweight theory works for some teams but doesn't work for all.
