HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Will we ever see someone control the pace of the game like Orr again?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-21-2012, 05:54 PM
  #1
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,376
vCash: 500
Will we ever see someone control the pace of the game like Orr again?

You know, I don't understand why we couldn't. I don't understand why the coaches don't let the players use their creativity more. There are times when I get frustrated at a player that hammers the puck down the ice on a penalty kill when he has so much more time to hang onto it and skate with it - even backwards.

We've all seen clips of Orr on a penalty kill. He'd hang onto the puck, he'd circle around and then he'd go behind the net. Then he'd get chased and then he'd go back behind the net. Did this really happen? Yes it did. Lanny McDonald in an interview I saw gave a detailed description in 1973 of when he was on the powerplay and had to chase Orr who was behind his own net. McDonald doesn't see anyone pressuring him so he chases him and Orr comes out front and then behind the net again. The same thing happens to the point where McDonald said he literally skated to the bench for a change.

I don't think anyone could control the game quite like Orr. I believe in watching Gretzky he was able to control the pace of the game quite well just because he was a step ahead of everyone else. He could slow it down to his level. Even Mario could do this. He would glide and still make ridiculous plays. He was able to stand still and have no one attack him (say on the power play) just out of sheer fear for being out of position and not knowing what Mario would do next.

But will we see a defenseman with wonderful skating abilities do what Orr did again? Niedermayer was nowhere near Orr offensively but we witnessed him getting held back a lot. Bouwmeester? Forget it, someone forgot to tell that kid that he's a wonderful skater. I mean, can we ever see that kind of dominance on a penalty kill again? If not, why not? Why can't a great skating player hang onto the puck in his own zone and use his own net for protection. If push came to shove he could always hammer it down the ice if he got in trouble.

Bottom line is would a coach even let a player do that? Would the fans or the media grill him and call him a puck hog? Of the players that could do it today if they wanted to I get the feeling Malkin could kill a good 45 seconds from a penalty just by hanging onto the puck and skating with it.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 06:16 PM
  #2
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,264
vCash: 500
Subban has been trying to do a lot of those things in Montreal for the last 2 years and has been consistently benched and ridiculed for it.

So no, we're prolly not going to see the like again.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 06:44 PM
  #3
lolwut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,030
vCash: 500
No, simply because there is so much more parity among players now. Not trying to bad mouth Orr but he played in easily the most watered down era ever.

lolwut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 06:44 PM
  #4
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,874
vCash: 500
Because the amount of raw talent needed to let a player go unchained and not have it bite you is immense.

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
Nalyd Psycho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 06:59 PM
  #5
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
RabbinsDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,736
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Subban has been trying to do a lot of those things in Montreal for the last 2 years and has been consistently benched and ridiculed for it.

So no, we're prolly not going to see the like again.
Coaches will let forwards do it, but not defensemen.

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 09:51 PM
  #6
04' hockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: City of Brotherly Lo
Posts: 587
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolwut View Post
No, simply because there is so much more parity among players now. Not trying to bad mouth Orr but he played in easily the most watered down era ever.



04' hockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 10:26 PM
  #7
tombombadil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Kelowna, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,030
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolwut View Post
No, simply because there is so much more parity among players now. Not trying to bad mouth Orr but he played in easily the most watered down era ever.
truth. more than that, there were a ton of good players, of course. They were just mostly on 4 or 5 teams. the other 11 teams were AHL teams.

tombombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 10:51 PM
  #8
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
But will we see a defenseman with wonderful skating abilities do what Orr did again?
Ya, Id bet we see it again. Some Wunderkind will eventually come out of Sweden, Finland, Russia, the Czech Republic, Northern Ontario, Tennessee or Texas who can chew gum & skate at the same time. Grew up playing shinny and finds nothing but joy in the symbiosis between skating & stickhandling, able to rag the puck & hang onto it in a game of keepaway against 5, 10, 15 or 20 other players at will. Like a Spitfire Pilot badly outnumbered with 360 degree vision annihilating everything in sight. There are plenty who are playing today capable of it but its been coached out of them. Eventually though, some firebrand'll appear who you cant keep down, be crazy to try. So long as he closes the deal, scoring himself & or setting up his team mates for pretty much wide open nets no problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Because the amount of raw talent needed to let a player go unchained and not have it bite you is immense.
...and because there are unfortunately a goodly number of Control Freaks at every level of hockeys administrative tiers & coaching ranks, the odds are slim. Id look to an Outlier, some place like the frozen steppes of Mother Russia for the next Great White Hope; Alabama, the Carolinas' or wherever else for the first truly Great Black Hope. Possibly Canada, but I doubt it. Far too much regimentation, cuckolding & PC up here in 21st Century hockey circles to retain its SuperPower Authority for long. Sissified. Sissies. Ya follow?.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 10:58 PM
  #9
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,344
vCash: 500
Highly doubtful.

Depth has improved too much.

Orr's skating ability so out classed 99% of the league at the time he could do pretty much whatever he wanted to.

Even the absolute best skaters now don't have anywhere near that same gap between them and the rest of the league.

John Flyers Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2012, 11:33 PM
  #10
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Even the absolute best skaters now don't have anywhere near that same gap between them and the rest of the league.
Their conditioning & skating abilities are certainly far superior over past decades & continues to improve, all evening the field, however, stickhandling, stickwork, & passing hasnt quite kept pace IMO. Room there, if any number of players were allowed to, given free rein so to speak who could really excel in that department if permitted to carry more & pass less. It obviously requires a special type to do it, get away with it & employ it as a tactic, otherwise you wind up with accusations of selfishness & showboating. We see bursts of brilliant stickhandling but nothing sustained because most of the players are catchable. But I disagree that if a guy comes along who has it all together, the stick/skates/head/heart/humility/closing skills couldnt do so even at todays supersonic speeds.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 02:44 AM
  #11
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Subban has been trying to do a lot of those things in Montreal for the last 2 years and has been consistently benched and ridiculed for it.

So no, we're prolly not going to see the like again.
I have seen Subban try things like that once in a while. However, Subban isn't in Orr's league either and while talented doesn't have the same skillset.

In all honesty, this only happened once in NHL history. No one could play keepaway the way Orr could before or since. Maybe we got spoiled with him but in all honesty why couldn't Niedermayer have done it? As far as I am concerned there was no reason he couldn't have displayed his skill more than he did. No one could catch him, he was smart, kept his head up and he would have been impossible to catch if one player just kept circling the net time after time.

I will say this, it will take a player with remarkable confidence and poise. You have to be confident in your abilities if you are in your own end hanging onto a puck while killing a penalty.

Can we agree that this is a problem in hockey even at the grassroots level? Why is it that a kid gets this stuff coached out of him by the time he gets to junior even?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 02:47 AM
  #12
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,352
vCash: 500
of course there will , I'm laughing at all the pessimists , everytime we think we saw the greatest thing , another things comes along that is even greater or at least as great.We just have to be patient , we are currently in a weak era and the superstars from that already weak era are underacheiving , which is making the upper-echelon of the NHL a big joke.Parity my ass.I'm confidant a kid with unheard talent will come in the next 50 years.For eveyr peak they is a low and we are currently in a major low , we have to endure.

Not every player will listen to their minor coaches , Mario Lemieux was one example.He was a prima donna from day one and he didn't cared about his coaches because he knew deep down he was right , and it the end he was.It's not narcissistic to think you're the best when you are.

It's a little bit like the school system , high IQ students are ****ed by the system made for the average.They have to deal with it themselves , nobody is gonna do it for them.So the great hockey player has to keep doing his moves and follow his instincts on the ice , the great players doesn't need any positionning or tips , that's the worst thing you can give them , a reason to ''think'' on the ice.They just follow their flow , their instinct , their intuition , their sub-concious.You can't ask him to play ''controlled''.It's ridiculous.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 01-22-2012 at 02:56 AM.
BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 03:09 AM
  #13
lolwut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,030
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I have seen Subban try things like that once in a while. However, Subban isn't in Orr's league either and while talented doesn't have the same skillset.

In all honesty, this only happened once in NHL history. No one could play keepaway the way Orr could before or since. Maybe we got spoiled with him but in all honesty why couldn't Niedermayer have done it? As far as I am concerned there was no reason he couldn't have displayed his skill more than he did. No one could catch him, he was smart, kept his head up and he would have been impossible to catch if one player just kept circling the net time after time.

I will say this, it will take a player with remarkable confidence and poise. You have to be confident in your abilities if you are in your own end hanging onto a puck while killing a penalty.

Can we agree that this is a problem in hockey even at the grassroots level? Why is it that a kid gets this stuff coached out of him by the time he gets to junior even?
Because teamwork tends to work better than one individual trying to do everything.
The skill level and skating ability in particular has narrowed drastically among players compared to previous generations. I highly doubt we will see another player do things like kill penalties buy just playing "Roflmao" Keep-Away anytime soon if ever at all.

lolwut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 03:27 AM
  #14
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
of course there will , I'm laughing at all the pessimists , everytime we think we saw the greatest thing , another things comes along that is even greater or at least as great.We just have to be patient , we are currently in a weak era and the superstars from that already weak era are underacheiving , which is making the upper-echelon of the NHL a big joke.Parity my ass.I'm confidant a kid with unheard talent will come in the next 50 years.For eveyr peak they is a low and we are currently in a major low , we have to endure.

Not every player will listen to their minor coaches , Mario Lemieux was one example.He was a prima donna from day one and he didn't cared about his coaches because he knew deep down he was right , and it the end he was.It's not narcissistic to think you're the best when you are.

It's a little bit like the school system , high IQ students are ****ed by the system made for the average.They have to deal with it themselves , nobody is gonna do it for them.So the great hockey player has to keep doing his moves and follow his instincts on the ice , the great players doesn't need any positionning or tips , that's the worst thing you can give them , a reason to ''think'' on the ice.They just follow their flow , their instinct , their intuition , their sub-concious.You can't ask him to play ''controlled''.It's ridiculous.
Great post. Reminds me of the way old teammates talked about Lafleur. Robinson even said when they ran a power play he was the first one to screw it up because he was all about being natural on the ice. It must have driven Scotty Bowman nuts but Bowman probably was smart enough to know he had the best player in the NHL and to loosen the purse strings on him. 1979 against Boston is a good example of what happens when you let those types of players decide the pace of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolwut View Post
Because teamwork tends to work better than one individual trying to do everything.
The skill level and skating ability in particular has narrowed drastically among players compared to previous generations. I highly doubt we will see another player do things like kill penalties buy just playing "Roflmao" Keep-Away anytime soon if ever at all.
But Orr was a classic team player. How are you not helping your team by chewing up 30-45 seconds of clock by ragging the puck? There are times when a team on a penalty kill wins a faceoff (lets say at center ice or so) and it goes back to the defenseman and I'm saying "Don't just shoot it, hang onto it, carry it behind your net and then hammer it". How is hanging onto the puck and giving your teammates a breather a selfish play? You aren't going to lead a rush up the ice shorthanded so it isn't as if you need to pass. Sometimes being selfish is the most "unselfish" thing you can do for your team. I can't tell you how many times I've cringed when Malkin or Crosby have passed the puck off to someone when they are in the middle of a rush when they've gathered steam. It would be far better to try and split the defense sometimes. And these guys are better passers than goal scorers so it isn't as if they couldn't find the open man. But why do players think that way? Because they have been controlled to think hanging onto the puck is selfish and it isn't. Yeah use your teammates for your own good use and all but if they aren't in a position to pass to then what else?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 03:32 AM
  #15
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Great post. Reminds me of the way old teammates talked about Lafleur. Robinson even said when they ran a power play he was the first one to screw it up because he was all about being natural on the ice. It must have driven Scotty Bowman nuts but Bowman probably was smart enough to know he had the best player in the NHL and to loosen the purse strings on him. 1979 against Boston is a good example of what happens when you let those types of players decide the pace of the game.



But Orr was a classic team player. How are you not helping your team by chewing up 30-45 seconds of clock by ragging the puck? There are times when a team on a penalty kill wins a faceoff (lets say at center ice or so) and it goes back to the defenseman and I'm saying "Don't just shoot it, hang onto it, carry it behind your net and then hammer it". How is hanging onto the puck and giving your teammates a breather a selfish play? You aren't going to lead a rush up the ice shorthanded so it isn't as if you need to pass. Sometimes being selfish is the most "unselfish" thing you can do for your team. I can't tell you how many times I've cringed when Malkin or Crosby have passed the puck off to someone when they are in the middle of a rush when they've gathered steam. It would be far better to try and split the defense sometimes. And these guys are better passers than goal scorers so it isn't as if they couldn't find the open man. But why do players think that way? Because they have been controlled to think hanging onto the puck is selfish and it isn't. Yeah use your teammates for your own good use and all but if they aren't in a position to pass to then what else?
Lafleur was exactly the same , I have a read a great french book about him , his life and career , and he was always that way , even in his childhood.No wonder Lafleur is Lemieux's idol and hero.

I also read in this book that Lafleur was the greatest athlete prototype the doctors ever saw when he came to his first Montreal camp.His heartbeat was naturally REALLY slow.For all the great training of today , I'm sure Lafleur's heartbeat would still naturally be one of the top 5 today.Some ''homosapien'' are just greater at some things no matter how the other trains , that's why the great from the past , the exceptions , can be better than all those modern athlete.

But I don't have the patience anymore to argue against these ''MODERN PLAYERS R ALWEZ BEDAH!!!'' clowns.I just let them live in their illusions and narcissistic world.I know the average player is better , but the top players are not.I'm sure the exceptionnal players just appear randomly accross era without any real reason or logic behind it.They just happen.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2012, 03:34 AM
  #16
steve141
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I will say this, it will take a player with remarkable confidence and poise. You have to be confident in your abilities if you are in your own end hanging onto a puck while killing a penalty.
I think it's a risk/reward thing. Penalty killing is pretty effective today as it is. Would it really improve that much by having one player skating circles with the puck. On the other hand, losing the puck unexpectedly in your own zone is about the most dangerous thing you could do. I'm not sure the reward outweighs the risk.

steve141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:42 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.