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01-23-2012, 01:56 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Wasn't that pretty much Dany Heatley in a nutshell circa 2009?
And Havlat too, and Boyle had the thing with Tampa and Boston didn't really want Thornton either.

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01-23-2012, 02:02 PM
  #52
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funny how havlat was the missing piece in the offseason, and now hes garbage.

personally i always thought he was overrated. his playoff production is from a couple years ago, and hes made of glass. not to bad if we have a tweener, but we dont. woulda kept heatley tbh, hopefully had him regain value, then deal this offseason.

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01-23-2012, 02:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
And Havlat too, and Boyle had the thing with Tampa and Boston didn't really want Thornton either.
Yeah, I think DW does a pretty good job ignoring irrelevant crap like perceived attitude issues when evaluating players while other GMs put way too much stock into it at their own peril. Wellwood is kind of another one of those cases.

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01-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Yeah, I think DW does a pretty good job ignoring irrelevant crap like perceived attitude issues when evaluating players while other GMs put way too much stock into it at their own peril. Wellwood is kind of another one of those cases.
Public perceptions of a player do not always accurately reflect a player's actual attitude also.

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01-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by CloweForbidzYou View Post
funny how havlat was the missing piece in the offseason, and now hes garbage.

personally i always thought he was overrated. his playoff production is from a couple years ago, and hes made of glass. not to bad if we have a tweener, but we dont. woulda kept heatley tbh, hopefully had him regain value, then deal this offseason.
How exactly is he garbage? It takes a while to get used to a new system, and that's not even taking into account that he missed the entire pre-season. From his last few games before his injury, he looked solid.
And how is he made of glass? We aren't talking about a Sam Gagner type player year. The last 3 seasons prior to this one, he only missed 14 games. Not to mention while Heatley only missed 2 as a Shark, he was severely injured in both post-season appearances.

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Old
01-23-2012, 02:15 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by bigwillie View Post
Not true. Heatley had 5 years remaining on his contract at the time. Carter's is twice as long, with 10 left after this season.

I also think Heatley's character issues were far less of an issue than Carter's are.
They're not off by that much. There was the rumor about Carter and Hartnell's wife. Carter had the partying thing, and when he got traded to Columbus he didn't wanna go there - just like Heatley didn't wanna go to Edmonton. Carter has some issues too, but I'd say that they're not as much as Heatley's were.

The contract is a big difference though like you said.

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01-23-2012, 02:16 PM
  #57
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Well I guess that question gave us something to talk about for awhile at least

I doubt CBJ gets the kind of offers being tossed around in that thread, hfboards posters are nothing to base a trade value on. He's got a scary long contract, was traded from Philly because of his attitude and the proceeded to stink up the joint in CBJ. If he's traded this season, that alone lowers his trade value considerably (they couldn't even make it work one full season). Havlat on the other hand is a solid playmaker, and is a better fit with Nash than Carter is, but is injury prone. Would CBJ make the trade to get out from under Carters contract? I think it's a possibility.

However DW doesn't like crazy contracts like that, and as others have noted Havlat isn't THAT injury prone. He's had a tough season, but I am still very confident by the end of his time here he will be well thought of and missed when he is gone. As long as he is healthy for the playoffs and performs, I don't care how much of the regular season he misses.

Regardless, Havlat has a NTC and has no reason to waive it, and DW wouldn't ask. I just though it was a fun conversation point.

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01-23-2012, 02:20 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
And Havlat too, and Boyle had the thing with Tampa and Boston didn't really want Thornton either.
None of those issues were comparable to Carter's issues with partying and alcohol. Havlat was perceived as not caring while playing on a non-contender. Boyle had zero character issues. The new ownership simply did not want his contract (which was six years at the time although I may be mistaken. Still not 10 years like Carter's). Thornton also had zero "real" character issues. The Bruins felt he was too laid back for a franchise player and wanted a change of direction.

DW loves to buy low on superstars but Carter is a reach.

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01-23-2012, 02:25 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by bigwillie View Post
None of those issues were comparable to Carter's issues with partying and alcohol. Havlat was perceived as not caring while playing on a non-contender. Boyle had zero character issues. The new ownership simply did not want his contract (which was six years at the time although I may be mistaken. Still not 10 years like Carter's). Thornton also had zero "real" character issues. The Bruins felt he was too laid back for a franchise player and wanted a change of direction.

DW loves to buy low on superstars but Carter is a reach.
Carter's issues are at least on Havlat's level. He asked for a trade and obviously wasn't happy there or giving it his all - just like Carter is now. He doesn't want to lose either. Alcohol and partying is a minor issue with an adult. The big difference is the contract length.

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01-23-2012, 02:31 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Carter's issues are at least on Havlat's level. He asked for a trade and obviously wasn't happy there or giving it his all - just like Carter is now. He doesn't want to lose either. Alcohol and partying is a minor issue with an adult. The big difference is the contract length.
Where has it ever been stated he asked for a trade? I have never heard that before now.

I don't see a player on a losing team who is unhappy and thus has effort issues as a 'problem' per say. I see it more as simply average behavior. He didn't actively sabotage his team, and he also was not exceptional in overcoming it either. I certainly see a player who can overcome his frustration and show up every shift anyway as exceptional, but that's going to be a rarity.

Players I see with 'serious' attitude issues are guys like Roy, Lindros, even Heatley to some degree (even if it wasn't his fault, it certainly had a huge impact on his value). Those players actively sabotaged their team in some way.

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01-23-2012, 02:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by bigwillie View Post
None of those issues were comparable to Carter's issues with partying and alcohol. Havlat was perceived as not caring while playing on a non-contender. Boyle had zero character issues. The new ownership simply did not want his contract (which was six years at the time although I may be mistaken. Still not 10 years like Carter's). Thornton also had zero "real" character issues. The Bruins felt he was too laid back for a franchise player and wanted a change of direction.

DW loves to buy low on superstars but Carter is a reach.
Boyle had a history with Barrie when both were players with Florida. Barrie became the new owner in Tampa shortly before the trade. I don't put much stock in Barrie's take on Boyle and if evaluating both as people, I would put a lot more stock in Barrie's legal issues blackmarking character on the Barrie side of the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
How exactly is he garbage? It takes a while to get used to a new system, and that's not even taking into account that he missed the entire pre-season. From his last few games before his injury, he looked solid.
And how is he made of glass? We aren't talking about a Sam Gagner type player year. The last 3 seasons prior to this one, he only missed 14 games. Not to mention while Heatley only missed 2 as a Shark, he was severely injured in both post-season appearances.
Havlat regressed shortly after TM had a talk with him about style of play. IMO, he is not strictly a player for TM's style. TM needs to integrate Havlat's strengths into the Sharks style of play (eg a little less chip and chase when Havlat is on the ice, a little more license for Havlat to carry the line). If that were done, I think we would see a much more productive Havlat. And Couture and Clowe are the right linemates for Havlat's style. He can buy them time for their less than ideal skating.

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01-23-2012, 02:35 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
Public perceptions of a player do not always accurately reflect a player's actual attitude also.
QFT. Hear hear.

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Old
01-23-2012, 02:41 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Where has it ever been stated he asked for a trade? I have never heard that before now.

I don't see a player on a losing team who is unhappy and thus has effort issues as a 'problem' per say. I see it more as simply average behavior. He didn't actively sabotage his team, and he also was not exceptional in overcoming it either. I certainly see a player who can overcome his frustration and show up every shift anyway as exceptional, but that's going to be a rarity.

Players I see with 'serious' attitude issues are guys like Roy, Lindros, even Heatley to some degree (even if it wasn't his fault, it certainly had a huge impact on his value). Those players actively sabotaged their team in some way.
Havlat's agent called out the team several times about them using Havlat incorrectly, playing him too little of minutes and clashing with Koivu. I'll assume that talk came with a trade request, but if it didn't, I'll take back that point. Havlat isn't 100% innocent with what happened in Minnesota like the OP made it seem. That is my main point.

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01-23-2012, 02:50 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Havlat's agent called out the team several times about them using Havlat incorrectly, playing him too little of minutes and clashing with Koivu. I'll assume that talk came with a trade request, but if it didn't, I'll take back that point. Havlat isn't 100% innocent with what happened in Minnesota like the OP made it seem. That is my main point.
Sure, I don't disagree. I'm just saying he didn't pull a Roy and actively sabotage his team, he simply was frustrated and behaved like a human being. Not the best way he could have handled it, but the way most people probably would.

Basically, I see his performance during that time as being the bigger negative factor in his value than any attitude problem.

Oddly enough, I would do the Heatley trade over again still to this day, both of them. We needed rid of Cheechoo and Michalek spent 2 seasons basically on the shelf. When we traded Heatley we needed the cap space and needed to improve our team speed. It's just an odd situation.

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01-23-2012, 04:18 PM
  #65
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This is the part where I miss Wellwood.

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01-23-2012, 04:26 PM
  #66
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This is the part where I miss Wellwood.
Seriously, DW had all the time in the world to resign him after the season. Despite his size, he was very smart with the puck for a 3rd liner.

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01-23-2012, 04:38 PM
  #67
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Signing Handzus for $5mil and an NMC over 2 years instead of Wellwood for $700k was an enormous mistake. Even without correcting for luck (which Handzus has considerably benefited from this season and Wellwood has been disadvantaged by), Wellwood has been 0.2 wins better than Handzus at less than 1/3 the cost.

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01-23-2012, 04:44 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Signing Handzus for $5mil and an NMC over 2 years instead of Wellwood for $700k was an enormous mistake. Even without correcting for luck (which Handzus has considerably benefited from this season and Wellwood has been disadvantaged by), Wellwood has been 0.2 wins better than Handzus at less than 1/3 the cost.
Prove Wellwood would be putting up those same 'unlucky' stats he's putting up playing in Winnepeg on this Sharks team playing with Mitchell & McGinn.

This is where your stat argument dies - you can't compare two different players on two different teams or how those same two players might do playing on another team.

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01-23-2012, 04:45 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Signing Handzus for $5mil and an NMC over 2 years instead of Wellwood for $700k was an enormous mistake. Even without correcting for luck (which Handzus has considerably benefited from this season and Wellwood has been disadvantaged by), Wellwood has been 0.2 wins better than Handzus at less than 1/3 the cost.
McGinn - Pavelski - Wellwood would have been a great 3rd line.

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01-23-2012, 04:53 PM
  #70
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I would have kept Wellwood over Handzus as well. Wellwood was very good in his role last year, and Handzus has not been better, and costs a lot more. That said, Handzus has single handedly gotten us a few points purely with his shootout skills, but that's not going to do us much good in the playoffs. If Handzus does not go beast mode in the playoffs I will be all for deaming that signing a mistake.

Which btw, I said at the time. Never was a fan of his signing, too slow. He makes Wellwood look like a speed skater.

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01-23-2012, 04:53 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wishman View Post
McGinn - Pavelski - Wellwood would have been a great 3rd line.
Pavelski on the 3rd line is a waste of his talents though.

I honestly think McGinn-Wellwood-Mitchell would be dangerous because Wellwood is one of the only players I see that can make Torrey ****ing Mitchell look like a scoring threat.

The thing I like about the Handzus signing (bad contract aside) is that he and McGinn have chemistry (I think). McGinn is stepping it up. Makes me wonder though, can he reach a Top 6 role anytime soon?

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01-23-2012, 04:56 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Signing Handzus for $5mil and an NMC over 2 years instead of Wellwood for $700k was an enormous mistake. Even without correcting for luck (which Handzus has considerably benefited from this season and Wellwood has been disadvantaged by), Wellwood has been 0.2 wins better than Handzus at less than 1/3 the cost.
Huh? Wellwood has gotten top-line minutes in the Peg (not all season, but he's been top-6 most of the year I believe). So how the heck has he been "disadvantaged" by luck? He would never have gotten the chance at the playing time or role with the Sharks. Which means comparing his current top-6 production to Handzus' bottom-6 production is completely asinine.

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01-23-2012, 04:59 PM
  #73
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Pavelski on the 3rd line is a waste of his talents though.

I honestly think McGinn-Wellwood-Mitchell would be dangerous because Wellwood is one of the only players I see that can make Torrey ****ing Mitchell look like a scoring threat.
I hate to breakup the 4th line, but I'd seriously consider Mcginn - Wellwood - Winchester. Really though you still want to upgrade that RW slot, another line Ruutu would work real well on.

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01-23-2012, 05:17 PM
  #74
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Sharks could send their 1st, one of the goalie prospects, one of braun/demers to NJD for Parise

Parise - Thornton - Pavelski
Clowe - Couture - Marleau
Mcginn - Handsuz - Havlat
Winchester - Desjardins - Murray



Can't afford it next year unless we dump a contract somehow, but hell with the future!


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01-23-2012, 05:32 PM
  #75
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Huh? Wellwood has gotten top-line minutes in the Peg (not all season, but he's been top-6 most of the year I believe). So how the heck has he been "disadvantaged" by luck? He would never have gotten the chance at the playing time or role with the Sharks. Which means comparing his current top-6 production to Handzus' bottom-6 production is completely asinine.
His goaltenders have posted a ridiculously awful 0.911 SV% at even-strength when he's been on the ice so his +/- (while still positive) is a lot lower than it deserves to be.

Wellwood has averaged just 40 more seconds of even strength ice time per game than Handzus. He wouldn't get anywhere near the PP opportunity or quality of linemates in San Jose that he's received in Winnipeg but he'd undoubtedly still be productive; he's averaged 2.04 points per 60 minutes of even strength time this season while Handzus has averaged just 1.4. He was also one of the best possession players in the NHL last year playing in the Sharks' bottom six and has once again been excellent in that category this season while Handzus has been beyond terrible. Replacing Handzus with Wellwood in the bottom six would have made the Sharks a much more territorially dominant team.

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