Expansion at this stage does not make sense for the KHL. Play with current teams (maybe minus Vityaz)
i agree unless someone comes a long with a great project (for example a team that is well funded, has a proper stadium of at least 10.000 people and has the backing of the countries hockey federation where the team is based)
If you look at the NHL in his first 2 decades there was almost constant expantion and contraction untill a certain number of teams were left, it wouldn't surprise me that the KHL will go through something like this and eventually be left with less teams that it has now.
So will KHL in some years if they make it. (if they make this super Euro/Asia league)
And local clubs, who do see the risk differently ... will be regretting it. They are resisting something that will take place under a form or another.
Local teams see it differently because they are defending their stake and do not want to be in a secondary league. So they try to keep their national league as the A league.
Stupid Arabs (wealthy Russians) investing money everywhere is a concept that has to be revised. Most who actually agree with that have generally little contact with those wealthy Arabs and little knowledge of entrepreneurial investing. They follow popular conventional wisdom that is actually unrighteous regarding these Arabs and tend to be generally jealous persons with little means and more sense to criticize than to undertake.
Look at how much money NHL makes, how much money UEFA makes.
And the KHL want's to join them ! surprising ?
They go the logical business path. First get some European teams, then get rid of some Russian teams. They know that European teams will generate good money and will rise the level of the organization (not in hockey terms but in structure). Making the League more attractive ... and so on and so on ... .
Finally, another element that plays its role on who is investing is : Russians are in a different business cycle than European investors. Russians are in a environment of growth and expansion while Europeans are in a non-growth environment. The ones in growth environments are looking for growth and development, while the ones in non-growth environment are risk averse and looking for small returns with safety (they are in preservation mode).
why Italy ?
Italy is a wealthy country in the North and with the alps and the Tirol, they have a culture of snow and wintersports. They would have the fans for a good team. Milano or Torino would be a nice place. Then with a superior level ...no doubt ... it is a winner. Because of Soccer, they would be used to have foreigners playing in a team they support.
Besides, some Italian teams, frustrated by the poor penetration of hockey and the low level of their league made already several attempt to hook onto the Swiss league.
Switzerland ?
Hockey popularity is great and rising. Many games take place with full arenas. The level is high enough to have a Swiss team. I would see that their is place for a Swiss team.
Both countries would have interesting sponsors that have markets to advertise on a European/Russian level.
why Italy ?
Italy is a wealthy country in the North and with the alps and the Tirol, they have a culture of snow and wintersports. They would have the fans for a good team. Milano or Torino would be a nice place. Then with a superior level ...no doubt ... it is a winner. Because of Soccer, they would be used to have foreigners playing in a team they support.
Besides, some Italian teams, frustrated by the poor penetration of hockey and the low level of their league made already several attempt to hook onto the Swiss league.
Switzerland ?
Hockey popularity is great and rising. Many games take place with full arenas. The level is high enough to have a Swiss team. I would see that their is place for a Swiss team.
Both countries would have interesting sponsors that have markets to advertise on a European/Russian level.
why Italy ?
Italy is a wealthy country in the North and with the alps and the Tirol, they have a culture of snow and wintersports. They would have the fans for a good team. Milano or Torino would be a nice place. Then with a superior level ...no doubt ... it is a winner. Because of Soccer, they would be used to have foreigners playing in a team they support.
Besides, some Italian teams, frustrated by the poor penetration of hockey and the low level of their league made already several attempt to hook onto the Swiss league.
Switzerland ?
Hockey popularity is great and rising. Many games take place with full arenas. The level is high enough to have a Swiss team. I would see that their is place for a Swiss team.
Both countries would have interesting sponsors that have markets to advertise on a European/Russian level.
To me, both countries make sense.
Surely it is wiser for Russia to invest money within its own infrastructure than spending money on a project somewhere in Milan? It's not like Russian hockey doesn't have issues itself or areas/regions within that would greatly benefit from investment? I don't see what gains the KHL can get from having a team in Italy or Switzerland.
The idea of European league that resembles the NHL is stupid. It will kill ice hockey in Europe. It will reduce interest because firstly the desire isn't there to see it, but it will also kill development because all you are doing is creating an Elite and then nobodies. If a few elite teams join the KHL or whatever Elite European league, the rest is left to rot and fester and slowly die. It's just stupid.
If the KHL wants to expand, maybe it should continue to invest in hockey in former Soviet States with the view to having more teams/players etc from those areas in the mid to long term future. It should leave traditional markets alone. It doesn't benefit Russian hockey or Swedish hockey for example if AIK join the KHL. Wishful projects like Milan seem ridiculous, as again i can't see much financial benefit to the KHL for such an investment, it certainly doesn't help Russian hockey and its ifnrastructure develop and it wouldn't help Italian hockey that much. I mean, a bunch of imports playing for a Russian financed team in Milan isn't going to increase the number of rinks/players/local funding in Italy to actually develop ice hockey. The only way Italy will develop is if its largely internal development and it's done the right way. A random KHL team won't help that much.
The idea of European league that resembles the NHL is stupid.
It is not. I will write you only one reason - this european league would have power to change behaviou of NHL. This is most important thing.
It is funny if you worry about future of european hockey. NHL brings best europeans players for years and pay for them funny money. It does not hurt european hockey? You want to built rings etc, there are no money for it. If NHL paid more for players, there would be money.
Nobody cares about hockey in Slovakia. HC LEV came and will build training arena. Do you think it is bad? Slovak league had crappy players for seasons, now better young players are coming to our league (which are not good enough to play KHL or MHL for HC LEV/Vlci - signed with LEV but are not good enough). Is it bad for our league?
Young kids can watch MHL games live, can watch KHL live, wants to play here. Is it bad?
The idea of European league that resembles the NHL is stupid. It will kill ice hockey in Europe. It will reduce interest because firstly the desire isn't there to see it, but it will also kill development because all you are doing is creating an Elite and then nobodies. If a few elite teams join the KHL or whatever Elite European league, the rest is left to rot and fester and slowly die. It's just stupid.
.
I apply what you wrote to the NHL:
The idea of a north american league is stupid. It will kill ice hockey in North America. It will reduce interest because firstly the desire isn't there to see it, but it will also kill development because all you are doing is creating an Elite and then nobodies. If a few elite teams join the NHL or whatever Elite North american league, the rest is left to rot and fester and slowly die. It's just stupid.
It is not. I will write you only one reason - this european league would have power to change behaviou of NHL. This is most important thing.
It is funny if you worry about future of european hockey. NHL brings best europeans players for years and pay for them funny money. It does not hurt european hockey? You want to built rings etc, there are no money for it. If NHL paid more for players, there would be money.
Nobody cares about hockey in Slovakia. HC LEV came and will build training arena. Do you think it is bad? Slovak league had crappy players for seasons, now better young players are coming to our league (which are not good enough to play KHL or MHL for HC LEV/Vlci - signed with LEV but are not good enough). Is it bad for our league?
Young kids can watch MHL games live, can watch KHL live, wants to play here. Is it bad?
I am split on the NHL. I completely understand that it has pejorative impact on European hockey and the small tranfsers (or in Russia's current case none) is not right. Of course being from where i am however and enjoying seeing the best on best, i love the NHL. So it's a two sided coin.
But the best way to counter-act the NHL is to create a European "NHL"? I don't think so. It's one thing wanting to challenge the NHL and its attitude towards European hockey and its obvious disdain and dislike for helping hockey outside of what helps the NHL. However, creating a pan-European league to me just doesn't work.
It kills domestic leagues. It will absolutely kill development. Say we take 7-8 Russian teams, 5-6 Swedish teams etc etc, what happens with the infrastructure left behind? They are left to rot. They aren't elite anymore, fans will realise this, motivation to invest disappears, attendance slips, TV money, advertising and overall financials disappear and slowly but surely this trickles all the way down the system. Until the system is destroyed. Meanwhile we are left with a few teams from each nation playing each other and having no real rivalries and not much fan interest. The Champions league in football is amazing, but i sure as hell don't want it to become an elite league.
I agree completely that something needs to be done about the NHL. Just not this way.
It is not. I will write you only one reason - this european league would have power to change behaviou of NHL. This is most important thing.
It is funny if you worry about future of european hockey. NHL brings best europeans players for years and pay for them funny money. It does not hurt european hockey? You want to built rings etc, there are no money for it. If NHL paid more for players, there would be money.
Nobody cares about hockey in Slovakia. HC LEV came and will build training arena. Do you think it is bad? Slovak league had crappy players for seasons, now better young players are coming to our league (which are not good enough to play KHL or MHL for HC LEV/Vlci - signed with LEV but are not good enough). Is it bad for our league?
Young kids can watch MHL games live, can watch KHL live, wants to play here. Is it bad?
So basically two NHL's are better than one? Simply because the new NHL is in your backyard makes it somehow better?
How much did Penza receive from Novokuznetsk for the talant that Slepyshev is? How many rinks can Penza build for that money?
But the best way to counter-act the NHL is to create a European "NHL"? I don't think so. It's one thing wanting to challenge the NHL and its attitude towards European hockey and its obvious disdain and dislike for helping hockey outside of what helps the NHL. However, creating a pan-European league to me just doesn't work.
yes, it is. You need strong league which will have infuence to change NHL behaviour. IIHF does not work anymore.
Quote:
"It kills domestic leagues. It will absolutely kill development. Say we take 7-8 Russian teams, 5-6 Swedish teams etc etc, what happens with the infrastructure left behind? They are left to rot. They aren't elite anymore, fans will realise this, motivation to invest disappears, attendance slips, TV money, advertising and overall financials disappear and slowly but surely this trickles all the way down the system. Until the system is destroyed. Meanwhile we are left with a few teams from each nation playing each other and having no real rivalries and not much fan interest. The Champions league in football is amazing, but i sure as hell don't want it to become an elite league."]It kills domestic leagues. It will absolutely kill development. Say we take 7-8 Russian teams, 5-6 Swedish teams etc etc, what happens with the infrastructure left behind? They are left to rot. They aren't elite anymore, fans will realise this, motivation to invest disappears, attendance slips, TV money, advertising and overall financials disappear and slowly but surely this trickles all the way down the system. Until the system is destroyed. Meanwhile we are left with a few teams from each nation playing each other and having no real rivalries and not much fan interest. The Champions league in football is amazing, but i sure as hell don't want it to become an elite league.
it will not. jaco wrote you your agrument using American enviroment. Why did not this scenario happen in North America?
I wrote you interest towards slovak league has risen since HC LEV plays KHL. You need strong feeder leagues. Maybe you dont like term feeder. But look what are SEL, SM-Liiga, Czech league now? They are feeder leagues for KHL,NHL.
So basically two NHL's are better than one? Simply because the new NHL is in your backyard makes it somehow better?
How much did Penza receive from Novokuznetsk for the talant that Slepyshev is? How many rinks can Penza build for that money?
if KHL pays for players money which slovak/czech etc clubs want so yes, it is better to have this league than NHL which pays funny money. You need strong league which will challange NHL to pay more money for players. We have domestic leagues and IIHF for decades, it does not work anymore.
I am split on the NHL. I completely understand that it has pejorative impact on European hockey and the small tranfsers (or in Russia's current case none) is not right. Of course being from where i am however and enjoying seeing the best on best, i love the NHL. So it's a two sided coin.
But the best way to counter-act the NHL is to create a European "NHL"? I don't think so. It's one thing wanting to challenge the NHL and its attitude towards European hockey and its obvious disdain and dislike for helping hockey outside of what helps the NHL. However, creating a pan-European league to me just doesn't work.
It kills domestic leagues. It will absolutely kill development. Say we take 7-8 Russian teams, 5-6 Swedish teams etc etc, what happens with the infrastructure left behind? They are left to rot. They aren't elite anymore, fans will realise this, motivation to invest disappears, attendance slips, TV money, advertising and overall financials disappear and slowly but surely this trickles all the way down the system. Until the system is destroyed. Meanwhile we are left with a few teams from each nation playing each other and having no real rivalries and not much fan interest. The Champions league in football is amazing, but i sure as hell don't want it to become an elite league.
I agree completely that something needs to be done about the NHL. Just not this way.
I agree that it makes little sense for the KHL to expand into Western Europe, unless the expansion would result in attracting top-level players who would otherwise be stars in the NHL. That scenario is not at all likely. The most likely scenario is that expansion into Western Europe would result in diluting and reducing the level of player talent, thereby making the league less appealing to fans and television audiences. I also agree that the investment for Russia would be much more likely to bolster the KHL if it were focused in regions for which there is too little investment now, like Novosibirsk, Ekaterinburg, Kemerovo, Irkutsk, Vladivostok, etc.
Comparing the situation to the NHL is not useful. The NHL started with two teams from Canada and four teams from the USA, so it has always combined Canada and the US. The current level of expansion was made possible by the infusion of talent from Europe. However, even with Europe's best, there is not enough available talent to staff 30 teams competitively. Expansion into the South helped create big TV contracts, but in places like Dallas, you could blow off a bomb in some sections of the arena and no one would be harmed. The Southern franchises are barely scraping by, and some will likely be moved back to Canada, where fan interest is greatest, in the coming years. The NHL is not a good model for the KHL to follow.
Expansion into the South helped create big TV contracts.
You say it! As soon as KHL gets rich TV contracts and media interest, the money involved will grow and will lure more and more star players from NA (back) to Europe, which in turn will result in increasing fan interest and more money.... To me it seems obvious that, if KHL wants to progress, they cannot limit themselves to Eastern Europe and Russia.
By the way, I read that there are also discussions about Japan going on?
I agree that it makes little sense for the KHL to expand into Western Europe, unless the expansion would result in attracting top-level players who would otherwise be stars in the NHL. That scenario is not at all likely. The most likely scenario is that expansion into Western Europe would result in diluting and reducing the level of player talent, thereby making the league less appealing to fans and television audiences. I also agree that the investment for Russia would be much more likely to bolster the KHL if it were focused in regions for which there is too little investment now, like Novosibirsk, Ekaterinburg, Kemerovo, Irkutsk, Vladivostok, etc.
Comparing the situation to the NHL is not useful. The NHL started with two teams from Canada and four teams from the USA, so it has always combined Canada and the US. The current level of expansion was made possible by the infusion of talent from Europe. However, even with Europe's best, there is not enough available talent to staff 30 teams competitively. Expansion into the South helped create big TV contracts, but in places like Dallas, you could blow off a bomb in some sections of the arena and no one would be harmed. The Southern franchises are barely scraping by, and some will likely be moved back to Canada, where fan interest is greatest, in the coming years. The NHL is not a good model for the KHL to follow.
Pretty much. Why does the KHL wish to expand into markets in Western European when there are large untapped markets in Russia? One expansion benefits Russian hockey on many levels, the other is a gimmick that simply wastes capital.
I wasn't trying to compare the NHL to anything. When i said a European "NHL", i simply meant a league covering the entire continent that had no relegation. Clearly a European wide league would be different and would also have less player pools to draw upon than the NHL currently does. Some of the Southern markets are doing ok, it all comes down to clever management, some teams have failed tremendously in this.
I hope the KHL stays far away from the NHL model. Infact, i dont think the NHL model should be applied to Europe full stop. The franchise model doesn't fit the culture. I hate that relegation doesn't exist in some European leagues, and hope to god it isn't scraped in the EPL for example. I don't understand the principle of the KHL draft either. Whats its purpose? It doesn't have the purpose of an NHL draft, whilst it just seems to reward teams for having bad development systems or recruiting systems. Just seems bizarre to me and not thought out.
If the KHL wants to expand, then it should invest in Ukraine etc. Makes far more sense.
yes, it is. You need strong league which will have infuence to change NHL behaviour. IIHF does not work anymore.
Well then change the IIHF. A strong league is needed, but you seem to not understand the concept that trying to develop this strong league could destroy European hockey. Your ripping apart domestic infrastructures for an elite league. Development has to happen at the bottom up, not the other way round. You don't improve hockey and its standing by trying to buy your way there, you develop popularity at the grass roots and making the game more popular. Gimmicks don't work. An elite European league does not cater itself to grass roots development. It destroys motivation within the systems to develop, because most will be on the outside looking in at the very elite group you have created. Your basically trying to create oligarchs of hockey. It's stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky
it will not. jaco wrote you your agrument using American enviroment. Why did not this scenario happen in North America?
I wrote you interest towards slovak league has risen since HC LEV plays KHL. You need strong feeder leagues. Maybe you dont like term feeder. But look what are SEL, SM-Liiga, Czech league now? They are feeder leagues for KHL,NHL.
I didn't see Jaco's post, but i do now. His example doesn't work. North American sports culture is fundamentally different. The way their sports business works is fundamentally different. North American grass roots aren't really affliated with the big professional clubs. The motivation for European clubs to develop hockey is to make players for themselves. By creating an elite in Europe, of say 20 or 30 teams, where no one else can enter, you are reducing the player pool long-term because motivation does not exist for the outside clubs to develop players anymore.
North America also has 2 countries. Europe has many more. So less clubs per country can get into this elite. Secondly, the NHL has taken many many many years to arrive at its current destination. We are apparently trying to make a European elite league very quickly. There are no similarities. European sports works very differently, and a model that "works" in North America isn't something that is directly adaptable to Europe. You should know this.
Slovak hockey is dying, and thats because its so domestically weak, the talent is outsourced immediately to other nations, corruption is rife and the motivation to train and develop elite players seems to have been lacking. You think by creating a league where Slovakia has 1 maybe 2 teams in it will help development? How? The only way Slovakia will re-emerge is to understand how to develop young players better ; by investing in youth, better coaches, attracting more players to ice hockey, less corruption and keeping them at home longer. Not by putting all your eggs in one or two baskets whilst the other domestic teams slowly die.
The SEL is a feeder league? The SEL is a feeder league because it has less money, but also because Sweden is developing alot of very good players currently. They have very good development infastructure. Yet we insist on destroying this cultivated infrastructure for an elite league? I cannot comprehend the stupidity of this idea, i really cannot.
I don't understand the principle of the KHL draft either.
it is the same like NHL draft in the beginning. Its goal is to distribute russian talent pool among best clubs. The same like NHL draft did in past in Canada.
Well then change the IIHF. A strong league is needed, but you seem to not understand the concept that trying to develop this strong league could destroy European hockey. Your ripping apart domestic infrastructures for an elite league. Development has to happen at the bottom up, not the other way round. You don't improve hockey and its standing by trying to buy your way there, you develop popularity at the grass roots and making the game more popular. Gimmicks don't work. An elite European league does not cater itself to grass roots development. It destroys motivation within the systems to develop, because most will be on the outside looking in at the very elite group you have created. Your basically trying to create oligarchs of hockey. It's stupid.
you claim canadian/american developing system is crap? You have the same situation in N.America.
It is not like you write. Smaller club knows that if it produce great player, KHL club pay big money. End of story. Is it better to have 6 crappy leagues and crappy developing programmes or one great league and great developing programm?
J17 Vs Proclamation
to be honest, your argument about killing domestic league is weak.
I read so many scenarios like this before entering HC LEV into KHL: "All big sponsors of czech/slovak extraleague and clubs will support LEV and KHL." It is the same like you write.
Reality? None of these czech sponsors came to LEV. Only companies which was not involved in hockey started to support LEV. More money in hockey, is it bad?
you claim canadian/american developing system is crap? You have the same situation in N.America.
It is not like you write. Smaller club knows that if it produce great player, KHL club pay big money. End of story. Is it better to have 6 crappy leagues and crappy developing programmes or one great league and great developing programm?
It's getting tiresome that you dodn't even bother to read. I have not claimed the NA system is bad, i have claimed that it designed for their infrastructure/culture. The European system is very different. It isn't hard to understand, so either you being evasive for a reason or simply are not understand the point. It's fustrating.
Yes, smaller clubs know this. But it becomes even worse if you make the elite even more pronounced. Making the elite bigger, but fewer, isn't a good idea. It's relatively obvious why, but i feel attempting to explain it will only cause me greater fustration.
6 Crappy leagues? Sweden is producing well. Finland is beginning too. Russia is doing ok. Switzerland is doing as well as it ever has. The Czechs/Slovak issue wouldn't solved by an Elite league. Their issues are much deeper than that, and im afraid its up until them to sort it out.
One great league? Erm ok. One great develop system? No, you've cut the development sources in half many times over, and now have a few teams that matter and those who didn't make the cut to be an in the elite? **** them. Good work inspector.
6 Crappy leagues? Sweden is producing well. Finland is beginning too. Russia is doing ok. Switzerland is doing as well as it ever has. The Czechs/Slovak issue wouldn't solved by an Elite league. Their issues are much deeper than that, and im afraid its up until them to sort it out.
I agree with you about the other countries though i think maybe Czech and Slovak hockey could possibly benefit from having some teams in the KHL but only if it has domestic backing and teams that make sense, like big teams from Prague and Bratislava and some other well known teams from there (maybe 4-6 teams in total) then it could make sense for the KHL to expand. Seeing a higher level of hockey at home could have a positive influence on Slovak and Czech intrest in hockey. Plus with having several teams you have derby's and rivalries.
I can't believe how conservative-minded some people are here in Europe.
North Americans, Asians, Eastern Europeans and I suppose most of the world all strive to be as international as possible in all kind of businesses. The Asians with a very weak interest in this sport pulled off a relatively strong Asian league. The China Dragons(then Sharks) even had some kind of co-operation with San Jose Sharks a few years back.
If the Asians, North Americans and Eastern Europeans thought like you(we?) do there wouldn't be any Asians hockey league or NHL/AHL for that matter.
At one point there were no international league in North America, they started it, it grew, they expanded and look at it today.
Also one other example that people seem to pull quite often. They say that if a team from country X would join the KHL(or any other league) there would be no rivalry towards any other team and there would be no interest in going to their games/supporting them.
But, if a completely new team makes it to SEL, for example Växjö that had never played on that level before and there was absolutely no rivalry towards them from ANY team in SEL. Today, in their first season they already call it derby games when the closest of the teams play them.
People do adjust very fast to new changes. If a Swedish team would join the KHL it would at first be many angry voices. Later on, if we even fast-forward 5 years in progress, this would be forgotten and the Swedish team would have some rivalry team. Especially if an even closer team would join; Swedish, Finnish, German etc.
And no the European leagues would not die. I can't see how anyone would see that as logical at all. If team A, B and C from one league would join another league, fans from team D, E, F, G, H etc. would loose interest in their own team and stop supporting them? I believe not. Would a European league get weaker if one or more teams would join the KHL? Yes I believe so, at some degree. But the main sponsors, fans and whatnot will not stop their support and work in the league and their teams.
If the NHL would dissolve the Canadians could absolutely make a league on their own that would be far better and stronger than any European league. I even believe they could pull off a league that would be on par with the KHL as it is today. But would it be better for the Canadians? I believe not. And it would be devastating for the Americans, even though I believe they would be able to pull of a relatively strong league by themselves also.
Also one thing that people tend to forget. If a team from Your country joins the KHL, the KHL is also Your league. It's not someone else's league. It will be Your country's top league. Same as the NHL is not just the Americans league because they have the majority of the teams, it's also the Canadians league. And the Asian league is not the Japanese's league because they have the majority, it's also the Koreans league and the Chinese's league.
Or should the Chinese not consider themselves part of the league just because they only have one team in it? Same applies for the Belarusians, Latvians, Kazakhs and Slovakians.
I agree with you about the other countries though i think maybe Czech and Slovak hockey could possibly benefit from having some teams in the KHL but only if it has domestic backing and teams that make sense, like big teams from Prague and Bratislava and some other well known teams from there (maybe 4-6 teams in total) then it could make sense for the KHL to expand. Seeing a higher level of hockey at home could have a positive influence on Slovak and Czech intrest in hockey. Plus with having several teams you have derby's and rivalries.
Unless the KHL and the project decides to invest monkey into rebuilding youth hockey and coaching in these countries, i don't see much upside. The level of hockey needs to be higher domestically in Slovakia and the Czech Republic, but it needs to come from domestic home grown products, not imports.
