North Americans, Asians, Eastern Europeans and I suppose most of the world all strive to be as international as possible in all kind of businesses. The Asians with a very weak interest in this sport pulled off a relatively strong Asian league. The China Dragons(then Sharks) even had some kind of co-operation with San Jose Sharks a few years back.
The Asian league is off a low standard and doesn't compare. Asian teams internationally are not close to the European level yet and little progress is being made. So any argument about a larger European league based on the Asian league fails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
If the Asians, North Americans and Eastern Europeans thought like you(we?) do there wouldn't be any Asians hockey league or NHL/AHL for that matter.
Well this doesn't make any sense. There would be hockey in Asia, because it was there prior to the Asian league. There would be hockey in North America, because it was there prior. The NHL also has developed over 100+ years in very different sporting culture into what it is today. Your argument is alsdo completely illogical because you are saying if they "thought" like Western Europeans then there would be no ice hockey in those regions. Well, Western Europe "thinks" like Western Europe and we have ice hockey. So not only is your point redundant because its a giant sweeping argument without any reasoning or intellect behind it, but it is fundamental flawed because the premise of your argument directly contradicts itself.
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Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
At one point there were no international league in North America, they started it, it grew, they expanded and look at it today.
It took 100+ years in a Socialist sporting market. Understand that Europe is not North America and that it has many years of its own experience and infrastructure, which shockingly enough, isn't that adaptable to their system.
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Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
Also one other example that people seem to pull quite often. They say that if a team from country X would join the KHL(or any other league) there would be no rivalry towards any other team and there would be no interest in going to their games/supporting them.
But, if a completely new team makes it to SEL, for example Växjö that had never played on that level before and there was absolutely no rivalry towards them from ANY team in SEL. Today, in their first season they already call it derby games when the closest of the teams play them.
A promotion in Sweden and and an expansion in Milan are two very different things. The Swedish team will still have inbuilt rivalries and hatred because they all co-exist within the same country and the teams are still located very closely together. Vaxjo will have teams relatively local to it that they will hate even if they haven't been in the same league. The same cannot be said for Milan and Dynamo Riga
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Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
People do adjust very fast to new changes. If a Swedish team would join the KHL it would at first be many angry voices. Later on, if we even fast-forward 5 years in progress, this would be forgotten and the Swedish team would have some rivalry team. Especially if an even closer team would join; Swedish, Finnish, German etc.
Well, you have no evidence for this.
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Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
And no the European leagues would not die. I can't see how anyone would see that as logical at all. If team A, B and C from one league would join another league, fans from team D, E, F, G, H etc. would loose interest in their own team and stop supporting them? I believe not. Would a European league get weaker if one or more teams would join the KHL? Yes I believe so, at some degree. But the main sponsors, fans and whatnot will not stop their support and work in the league and their teams.
If an Elite team is formed, and half the SEL decides to join the KHL teams and other European elite league teams, the other half the SEL is left in no mands land. All financial backers and investment will go to the Elite league. So they are left in a domestic league that is significantly weaker in play and feels secondary. It would financially worsen, motivation for hockey development stagnates (why develop players or invest as much when you cannot make the Elite), TV interest dies down because there are better alternatives and so on.
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Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
If the NHL would dissolve the Canadians could absolutely make a league on their own that would be far better and stronger than any European league. I even believe they could pull off a league that would be on par with the KHL as it is today. But would it be better for the Canadians? I believe not. And it would be devastating for the Americans, even though I believe they would be able to pull of a relatively strong league by themselves also.
This has absolutely no relevance to the idea of creating a Pan-European league (and you keep deciding to ignore the differences between the continents).
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Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
Also one thing that people tend to forget. If a team from Your country joins the KHL, the KHL is also Your league. It's not someone else's league. It will be Your country's top league. Same as the NHL is not just the Americans league because they have the majority of the teams, it's also the Canadians league. And the Asian league is not the Japanese's league because they have the majority, it's also the Koreans league and the Chinese's league.
If you join the KHL, it's still a Russian league. HV LEV are in the league, doesn't mean it is the Slovakian league. HV LEV are a Slovakian hockey actor, but they are not Slovakia. In much the same way if i invest in a company, i have a share in the company, but my family or country does not. Just because they share an affliation with me doesn't mean they share a direct affliation with the company or have any rights or jurisdiction on it.
Stop mentioning the Asian league as if it has some serious point to it. It is utterly irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by hockeyamateur
Or should the Chinese not consider themselves part of the league just because they only have one team in it? Same applies for the Belarusians, Latvians, Kazakhs and Slovakians.
The Chinese regions that participate in the league can consider themselves apart of it. A doubt a region on the other side of the country in China has much affiliation with that team.
Pretty much. Why does the KHL wish to expand into markets in Western European when there are large untapped markets in Russia? One expansion benefits Russian hockey on many levels, the other is a gimmick that simply wastes capital.
I wasn't trying to compare the NHL to anything. When i said a European "NHL", i simply meant a league covering the entire continent that had no relegation. Clearly a European wide league would be different and would also have less player pools to draw upon than the NHL currently does. Some of the Southern markets are doing ok, it all comes down to clever management, some teams have failed tremendously in this.
I hope the KHL stays far away from the NHL model. Infact, i dont think the NHL model should be applied to Europe full stop. The franchise model doesn't fit the culture. I hate that relegation doesn't exist in some European leagues, and hope to god it isn't scraped in the EPL for example. I don't understand the principle of the KHL draft either. Whats its purpose? It doesn't have the purpose of an NHL draft, whilst it just seems to reward teams for having bad development systems or recruiting systems. Just seems bizarre to me and not thought out.
If the KHL wants to expand, then it should invest in Ukraine etc. Makes far more sense.
Your argument is alsdo completely illogical because you are saying if they "thought" like Western Europeans then there would be no ice hockey in those regions.
Did I really say that? I believe not. I said there would be no international hockey leagues and I mentioned NHL and AHL.
I did NOT say that there would be no ice hockey in North America.
For the rest that you wrote I have no intention at all to comment since you refuse to read what I say and you just demise everything as if what You think is right and therefore what I think is therefore wrong.
And you said at one point that I have no proof. Well, where is your proof that everything that I say is false or everything that You say is correct?
If you want to reply to my comment PLEASE read what I say before you state things that I did not say and demise everything.
You are entitled to your own opinion but so am I.
I think the Asian league is a very good example, you think not. Good, that makes it much easier for you.
If an Elite team is formed, and half the SEL decides to join the KHL teams and other European elite league teams, the other half the SEL is left in no mands land. All financial backers and investment will go to the Elite league. So they are left in a domestic league that is significantly weaker in play and feels secondary. It would financially worsen, motivation for hockey development stagnates (why develop players or invest as much when you cannot make the Elite), TV interest dies down because there are better alternatives and so on.
it is your idea. I will write you facts, experiences. HC LEV joined KHL, no sponsor of slovak/czech club/league joined HC LEV, everyone stayed to support domestic club/league. HC LEV is sponsored by companies which were not involved in hockey sponsorship before.
New money in hockey and you claim it is bad. Bravo!
Do you still claim that "all financial backers and investment will go to the Elite league. " HC LEV shows a proof that it does not happen.
A promotion in Sweden and and an expansion in Milan are two very different things. The Swedish team will still have inbuilt rivalries and hatred because they all co-exist within the same country and the teams are still located very closely together. Vaxjo will have teams relatively local to it that they will hate even if they haven't been in the same league. The same cannot be said for Milan and Dynamo Riga
so there is not a rivarly among spanish-english-german etc football clubs in Champions league. Great man
So there can be only one conclusion, KHL rips-off non-KHL teams even more than NHL. Evil KHL pays "funny money" for European talant.
what european talent? It applies only to russian based clubs. Honestly, I dont care how russia organise its hockey structure. It is their choice. For me is most important that there is NOT rule that if KHL team wants to sign european players which was drafted by this KHL club, so european club receive funny money which KHL decides about. If KHL club wants to sign european draftee, it has to make a deal with european club. Second choice is to waint until his contract with european club expires.
This KHL rule has no effect for europe. It applies to russian clubs. Maybe it is not the best solution, but I dont care. It is problem of Russia.
NHL - I would not have any problem with paying 200 000 USD for drafted American/Canadian. I have problem with paying this funny money for Europeans. I dont care that NHL club pay NOTHING for Canadians/Americans. It is their choice. But it their rules applies to Europe, I has to care. Only solution is: NHL club drafted European, wants to sign a contract with him, ask european club for financial compensation, pay it. All story.
I see Asia as a big market but I can imagine chinese, japanese club in KHL in next 10 years.
btw, I read interview where was said that KHL wanted to play exibition game (or regular season game?) in Japan this season (or so) but Fukujima case was a reason why it does not happen.
I see Asia as a big market but I can imagine chinese, japanese club in KHL in next 10 years.
btw, I read interview where was said that KHL wanted to play exibition game (or regular season game?) in Japan this season (or so) but Fukujima case was a reason why it does not happen.
A market with very little hockey development. It's all very well having dreams of putting clubs in places to expand the influence and profit of your company, but Asia has very little hockey infrastructure or support.
I mean, the NHL going into the south is seen by some still as a very ill-advised move. It's worked for some areas and hasn't for others. Yet, it was/and is far more plasauble and idea than going into an Asia right now.
A market with very little hockey development. It's all very well having dreams of putting clubs in places to expand the influence and profit of your company, but Asia has very little hockey infrastructure or support.
I mean, the NHL going into the south is seen by some still as a very ill-advised move. It's worked for some areas and hasn't for others. Yet, it was/and is far more plasauble and idea than going into an Asia right now.
Actually it was NHL idea to go into Asia first. I think it was the Sharks that once had an affiliate team in the Asian league. Also Islanders owner Wang is involved in helping further developments of the game there. Fast growing middle class in China, even if a tiny fraction of people are interested it could be huge. If the wheels ever get rolling, look out. Problem is the hardest part is getting the engine to start!
Actually it was NHL idea to go into Asia first. I think it was the Sharks that once had an affiliate team in the Asian league. Also Islanders owner Wang is involved in helping further developments of the game there. Fast growing middle class in China, even if a tiny fraction of people are interested it could be huge. If the wheels ever get rolling, look out. Problem is the hardest part is getting the engine to start!
Just because they have a fast growing middle class and have some previous experience of NHL involvement doesn't mean it's a good market to expand into. It would supply not talent or resources of its own and would rely entirely on outside investment. If the KHL really wants to develop hockey in that area, then it's going to have spend alot of money and be very very patient and maybe one day some degree of talent will emerge.
It just isn't logical for the KHL to expand there. It doesn't take an economics graduate from Oxford to know this.
I see Asia as a big market but I can imagine chinese, japanese club in KHL in next 10 years.
btw, I read interview where was said that KHL wanted to play exibition game (or regular season game?) in Japan this season (or so) but Fukujima case was a reason why it does not happen.
And who is going to play for those clubs? Foreigners? Senseless.
And who is going to play for those clubs? Foreigners? Senseless.
I keep seeing people say this but I don't understand it.
Business has no nationality. Business exists everywhere there is money, it's only national boundaries are that of the global capitalist economy. So besides North Korea and Cuba, nationalities have nothing to do with the discussion.
The fact that the KHL originates from Russia is completely irrelevant. It is a Russian league only for the moment as vorky points out their goal is obviously to become independent from the IIHF and FHR, just like the NHL is.
The problem with a lot of you Europeans who can't understand how the KHL operates is that you take imaginary lines on the map far too seriously.
While I understand the concerns of the conservative tradition-obsessed Europeans in this thread, it is time to wake up and smell the dawn of the 21st Century and capitalism.
The KHL system is the future of European hockey. Maybe not the KHL itself, but there is absolutely no doubt that the current domestic league/federation system will be phased out in favor of franchised-based pan-European leagues.
Those that think otherwise are living in the past or in a state of denial. How can anyone honestly believe that rich European businessmen look across the Atlantic at the NHL and see how many BOATLOADS of cash they bring in every season and not want that kind of money for themselves?
It also doesn't matter if the places they put teams are "hockey regions" or not. Look at the NHL expansion to the south. There may be empty seats, but that means absolutely nothing. The NHL's southern expansion resulted in big TV contracts, increased sponsorship, larger market penetration, etc. And in the long term it will only get better as hockey grows in the south around the NHL teams.
It is the same mentality about putting teams in Milan, China, and Japan. Yes, they might lose money at first, but it is the POTENTIAL that is what is important.
There is a phrase in the business world that goes, "You have to spend money to make money."
The hockey world is run by money just like anything else, not national sporting federations. You don't have to like it, but I recommend forgetting your fantasies of "tradition" and "patriotism" somehow defeating the supreme power of capitalism.
Business has no nationality. Business exists everywhere there is money, it's only national boundaries are that of the global capitalist economy. So besides North Korea and Cuba, nationalities have nothing to do with the discussion.
The fact that the KHL originates from Russia is completely irrelevant. It is a Russian league only for the moment as vorky points out their goal is obviously to become independent from the IIHF and FHR, just like the NHL is.
As long as the KHL respects the FHR's restriction on foreigners on Russian teams, it's not irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE
While I understand the concerns of the conservative tradition-obsessed Europeans in this thread, it is time to wake up and smell the dawn of the 21st Century and capitalism.
The KHL system is the future of European hockey. Maybe not the KHL itself, but there is absolutely no doubt that the current domestic league/federation system will be phased out in favor of franchised-based pan-European leagues.
I'd love to see a Pan-Europen League. But paint me sceptical. The IIHF made a serious effort to establish a European League after the model of the Football Champions League in the 1990s and and it didn't work out. Why? Mostly because the demand to see Pan-European competition was not even big enough to cover the costs. They tried again a couple of years ago and again they failed. Why? Because the biggest sponsors pulled out. If the European market would have been as promising as you assume, it would have been easy to find other sponsors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE
How can anyone honestly believe that rich European businessmen look across the Atlantic at the NHL and see how many BOATLOADS of cash they bring in every season and not want that kind of money for themselves?
European businessmen don't even have to look across the Atlantic, they've got the Football Champions League right in front of their eyes, a League that makes the NHL look like a poorhouse.
Making boatloads of cash? By running a KHL franchise? I don't even think the existing KHL franchises are cash cows, not even the most succesful ones. Or by broadcasting KHL hockey in Europe? If the market was there, someone would already do it and big companys would pay lots of money for advertisments.
As long as the KHL respects the FHR's restriction on foreigners on Russian teams, it's not irrelevant.
this restrictions applies to RUSSIAN clubs of KHL not latvian, belorussian, slovak, czech etc KHL club. Helvetics can sing full roster of Canadian, Americans, Suiss, Russians whoever they want if they join KHL. Btw rumour says foreigner´s rule can change after Sochi Olympics. Maybe abolishing or changing (foreigners are players which country DOES NOT join KHL, for example Latvians would not be foreigners anymore because Dinamo Riga plays KHL)
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I'd love to see a Pan-Europen League. But paint me sceptical. The IIHF made a serious effort to establish a European League after the model of the Football Champions League in the 1990s and and it didn't work out. Why? Mostly because the demand to see Pan-European competition was not even big enough to cover the costs. They tried again a couple of years ago and again they failed. Why? Because the biggest sponsors pulled out. If the European market would have been as promising as you assume, it would have been easy to find other sponsors.
last problem of Champions League was with cooperation with Russians, Gazprom. Fasel (European Trophy) will never create Champions League if he dont want KHL teams to participate.
this restrictions applies to RUSSIAN clubs of KHL not latvian, belorussian, slovak, czech etc KHL club. Helvetics can sing full roster of Canadian, Americans, Suiss, Russians whoever they want if they join KHL.
I'm aware, that's why I said "FHR's restriction on foreigners on Russian teams".
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky
last problem of Champions League was with cooperation with Russians, Gazprom.
Yes, but why was the Champions Hockey League even depending on Gazprom? If Pan-European competition was such a great market, why didn't other companies jump in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky
Fasel (European Trophy) will never create Champions League if he dont want KHL teams to participate.
1) Fasel is not behind the European Trophy. The European Trophy is a project of the Clubs themselves, acting separate from the IIHF because they're not happy with the failure of the Champions Hockey League.
2) Still, the Clubs can't get anything going other than a Pre-Season Tournament. And again they seem to be depending on one particular Sponsor, Red Bull in this case. Why is that if Pan-European competition is really such a great market opportunity?
3) Russian teams were participating in the European Hockey League as well as in the Champions Hockey League.
I'm aware, that's why I said "FHR's restriction on foreigners on Russian teams".
my fault, I missed it.. sorry
I dont know why Champions Hockey League was depending on Gazprom. We all know that only russian clubs (sponsors) invest into hockey great money. If you want european league you need KHL clubs. Maybe Gazprom did not like what IIHF (euro clubs) wanted to do with Champions Hockey League in future.
Crisis was maybe factor for failure of Champions League.
I see no future for European Trophy if they dont cooperate with IIHF and KHL.
As long as the KHL respects the FHR's restriction on foreigners on Russian teams, it's not irrelevant.
If they became independent it would be irrelevant. The NHL for example is outside the jurisdiction of Hockey Canada and USA Hockey.
Regardless, when a team from a non-Russian country joins the league that nationality no longer counts as foreign. (i.e. Latvians don't count as foreigners because of Dinamo Riga)
Quote:
I'd love to see a Pan-Europen League. But paint me sceptical. The IIHF made a serious effort to establish a European League after the model of the Football Champions League in the 1990s and and it didn't work out. Why? Mostly because the demand to see Pan-European competition was not even big enough to cover the costs. They tried again a couple of years ago and again they failed. Why? Because the biggest sponsors pulled out. If the European market would have been as promising as you assume, it would have been easy to find other sponsors.
Those were competitions that ran alongside the (as of now) more important domestic competitions though. I'm talking about an actual league, such as the NHL or KHL. Meaning domestic competitions would take a back-seat to the pan-European league that will (most likely) have most of the major clubs with the majority of sponsorships in it already.
Not to mention a closed franchise-based league would guarantee the participation of all the clubs involved without having to worry about relegation. So there would be much less risk for investors.
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European businessmen don't even have to look across the Atlantic, they've got the Football Champions League right in front of their eyes, a League that makes the NHL look like a poorhouse.
Champions League isn't what a European hockey league would model themselves after though. As I said, a tournament run alongside domestic competitions which requires some kind of qualifying is not going to be as successful as a closed franchise-based league.
As much as I would prefer a champions league-like system, there just isn't as much potential money to be made off of it. Especially because the IIHF would probably run it, rather than the owners of the teams themselves.
The European Trophy, the pre-season tournament that is a closed competition run by the club owners themselves has far more potential to turn into an actual league with the capability for large profits than any kind of champions cup.
Quote:
Making boatloads of cash? By running a KHL franchise? I don't even think the existing KHL franchises are cash cows, not even the most succesful ones. Or by broadcasting KHL hockey in Europe? If the market was there, someone would already do it and big companys would pay lots of money for advertisments.
The KHL might not be making big money right now, but the potential is there for the KHL more than any other league because they are refusing to be confined by national borders and federations. They want to put teams in major European and Asian markets to CREATE that market for broadcasting KHL games and to get increased sponsorships.
Unlike the various domestic championships run by the national federations in Europe, the KHL is a business. They are doing everything they do for a reason - money. While that money might not be coming in just yet, we are talking about a league that is only a few years old. Don't worry, they know exactly what they're doing. The NHL has been around for 80 more years than the KHL. In 80 years I would not be surprised at all if the KHL was pulling in similar revenue.
I dont know why Champions Hockey League was depending on Gazprom. We all know that only russian clubs (sponsors) invest into hockey great money. If you want european league you need KHL clubs. Maybe Gazprom did not like what IIHF (euro clubs) wanted to do with Champions Hockey League in future.
Crisis was maybe factor for failure of Champions League.
I see no future for European Trophy if they dont cooperate with IIHF and KHL.
Gazprom pulled support of the Champions League because the IIHF was going to receive support from the NHL for marketing and production costs. Simply a political move. The KHL's biggest financier didn't want the NHL having anything to do with the competition.
Regardless, when a team from a non-Russian country joins the league that nationality no longer counts as foreign. (i.e. Latvians don't count as foreigners because of Dinamo Riga)
that is not true.. lativans, Slovaks, Kazakhs and Belarussians count as foreigners. Maybe after Sochi Olympics they wont, but it is only an idea
