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How far is this team away from success?

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Old
01-22-2012, 10:53 AM
  #1
5 Minute Major
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How far is this team away from success?

Obviously, it would appear, on the surface, they are a long ways off.

I've been thinking about it. Outside of Pominville, who is probably having the best year of his career, and Vanek, who is having a typical Thomas Vanek-like year, we have a whole lot of players that are having the absolute worst year of their career.

Is it just bad luck? Coaching? I suspect it's a combination of the two.

I don't think I need to discuss every player that has been discussed as being the problem and needing to be traded. That would make this just another one of those threads, though I think we all know there are a specific couple of players that probably need a new home.

With saying that, the Sabres are well on their way to a high pick and a possible blue-chip prospect. We can at least hope for that to happen. With a couple of moves (trades, nothing completely blowing up the whole roster) and maybe a change of philosophy within the organization (GM and HC), do you think the Sabres could have a tremendous bounce back next season?

I do. I base it on a few moves and relying on a lot of players on this roster also bouncing back from the worst years in their career.

Maybe I am too optimistic but I think there certainly are a lot of building blocks in place for a successful team moving forward. Just a few bad and old pieces of fruit from the Sabres tree need to be picked and discarded.

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01-22-2012, 11:03 AM
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I think they are at least 5 years away from being a contender.
They need to turn the entire roster over, bring in a new front office, and find a new coach/staff

All you have to do is look at the Calgary Flames to see how far away the Sabres are

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01-22-2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think they are at least 5 years away from being a contender.
They need to turn the entire roster over, bring in a new front office, and find a new coach/staff

All you have to do is look at the Calgary Flames to see how far away the Sabres are
Or look at the Florida Panthers to see how quickly things can change from season to season.

They don't need to turn the entire roster over. They need improvements in key areas.

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01-22-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Or look at the Florida Panthers to see how quickly things can change from season to season.

They don't need to turn the entire roster over. They need improvements in key areas.
Are you insinuating that the Panthers are contenders? I love how much that team works and would kill for a time machine so we could fire last year when we should have, and hire Dineen...

But the Panthers are overachievers...

if success to you means a return to being a 1 round playoff team, then sure, follow the panthers route...

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01-22-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think they are at least 5 years away from being a contender.
They need to turn the entire roster over, bring in a new front office, and find a new coach/staff

All you have to do is look at the Calgary Flames to see how far away the Sabres are
Turn the entire roster over? I don't see that.

As is, Boyes, Gaustad and Hecht may not be brought back. I think it's probably better than a 50% chance they don't sign any of those three. Add in I have a feeling they will part ways with Kaleta and possibly Gragnani, and there will be a trade or two and that is quite a turnover.

I think there are some good players on this roster that are certainly worth keeping and just need a new direction.

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01-22-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Are you insinuating that the Panthers are contenders? I love how much that team works and would kill for a time machine so we could fire last year when we should have, and hire Dineen...

But the Panthers are overachievers...

if success to you means a return to being a 1 round playoff team, then sure, follow the panthers route...
I don't think te panthers are contenders but I think he has a point, with us having terry now I think we can pretty quickly trade our big name players for youn guns and than plug in some top free agents with all our money like Parise or maybe Getzlaf next year, it won't be a one or two year thing likely but I think the fact that terry has opened up these free agent possibilities to us will speed it up

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01-22-2012, 11:21 AM
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"Pretty ****in far from success."

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01-22-2012, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by THEYAREGOODSCARYGOOD View Post
I don't think te panthers are contenders but I think he has a point, with us having terry now I think we can pretty quickly trade our big name players for youn guns and than plug in some top free agents with all our money like Parise or maybe Getzlaf next year, it won't be a one or two year thing likely but I think the fact that terry has opened up these free agent possibilities to us will speed it up
I think Parise and Getzlaf are pipe dreams. I also believe finding the right players is far more important than finding the flashiest players.

If free agency has showed us one thing this year is that it can blow up in your face.

I'd rather get young players in here and if they develop, then pay them.

I'm not dead set against free agents but a team that continually looks that route as the answer to their problems is usually a team that will continue to spin their wheels and go nowhere.

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01-22-2012, 11:25 AM
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I'm thinking it's Ruff. These guys are just playing terrible hockey. On paper they are relatively talented guys, they just don't know how to play hockey. That's on the coach.

I don't know what he's telling them, but it's not the correct way to play hockey in the NHL anymore.

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01-22-2012, 11:26 AM
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currently, we're the philadelphia eagles of the nhl. spent a ****ton on free agents and were expected to be major contenders, and then sucked. both teams also have coaches that have been around forever even though their teams don't appear to have the mental edge needed to win big games.
I think it will take another 2-3 years to get to where t-pegs thought we were going to be this year. deal some of the core for younger players/picks. ship off the dead weight (boyes, grags, weber if brennan can adequately replace him). reload through the draft. get rid of lr/dr.
also, side note: what do people wanna do with tyler ennis when/if he ever gets healthy? is he part of the younger core that the sabres should rebuild around, or would you trade him for another, bigger winger who could step into the top 6 and be fairly good there?

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01-22-2012, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think they are at least 5 years away from being a contender.
They need to turn the entire roster over, bring in a new front office, and find a new coach/staff

All you have to do is look at the Calgary Flames to see how far away the Sabres are
Bad comparison. Calgary's best two players are near retirement and Iginla seems to be holding that Franchise back from a rebuild.

Calgary has a pretty terrible prospect pool when compared to Buffalo as well.

People are starting to write him off early, but Tyler Myers is our franchise defenceman. The Calgary Flames have no such thing.

Roy, Stafford, and Boyes are dead weight, and should be traded for picks/futures. This still leaves us with Vanek, Ennis, Pominville, and Kassian as our top six wingers going into the future.

This team is only dropping in the standings this year, and trading Roy and Stafford will only secure that. This will ensure our highest pick since Thomas Vanek, which we can use to draft that blue chip center prospect we've needed.

Next year's top six:

Vanek-Adam-Pominville
Ennis-Grigorenko-Kassian

Ovbiously not a contender this season, but give these kids the time to develop, coupled with another top 10 pick next year I think we'd be in a much better place than we are now.

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01-22-2012, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Havok89 View Post
Bad comparison. Calgary's best two players are near retirement and Iginla seems to be holding that Franchise back from a rebuild.

Calgary has a pretty terrible prospect pool when compared to Buffalo as well.

People are starting to write him off early, but Tyler Myers is our franchise defenceman. The Calgary Flames have no such thing.

Roy, Stafford, and Boyes are dead weight, and should be traded for picks/futures. This still leaves us with Vanek, Ennis, Pominville, and Kassian as our top six wingers going into the future.

This team is only dropping in the standings this year, and trading Roy and Stafford will only secure that. This will ensure our highest pick since Thomas Vanek, which we can use to draft that blue chip center prospect we've needed.

Next year's top six:

Vanek-Adam-Pominville
Ennis-Grigorenko-Kassian

Ovbiously not a contender this season, but give these kids the time to develop, coupled with another top 10 pick next year I think we'd be in a much better place than we are now.
Don't look at Calgary today, look at them 3 years ago..

Jaybo is more of a franchise defensemen then Myers...
Adam isn't a center
Kassian has serious questions in his development at this stage
Ennis is overrated flash

5 years away...

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01-22-2012, 11:33 AM
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I think they're pretty far off. If they do go into re-build mode next year they could be even worse then they are now(which probably isn't a bad idea b/c Mackinnon is draft eligible). I think next years roster is going to be quite a bit different then this years. Players that are here now who I don't think will be here next year include: Gaustad, Hecht, Boyes, Roy, Stafford(hopefully), Leopold.

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01-22-2012, 11:34 AM
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I think they're pretty far off. If they do go into re-build mode next year they could be even worse then they are now(which probably isn't a bad idea b/c Mackinnon is draft eligible). I think next years roster is going to be quite a bit different then this years. Players that are here now who I don't think will be here next year include: Gaustad, Hecht, Boyes, Roy, Stafford(hopefully), Leopold.
i hope...

until change starts to happen... i have no reason to believe it will happen...

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01-22-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Don't look at Calgary today, look at them 3 years ago..

Jaybo is more of a franchise defensemen then Myers...
Adam isn't a center
Kassian has serious questions in his development at this stage
Ennis is overrated flash

5 years away...
You clearly don't watch JayBo. I've been living in Calgary the last few years and suffer through Flames games all the time.

They're relatively the same player (large, great skaters, not physical) but atleast Myers is young and last year's playoffs showed he has an untapped physical edge.

I don't see how Ennis is overrated. Everyone in this fanbase writes him off because of his size. He's got more natural skill than anyone on this team, only Vanek has a case for having more. He had a 49 point rookie season, he's a pretty good goal scorer and passer. He needs to reduce the turnovers, but he is young.

You need skill on your team to win. Replace Roy and Stafford and bring size and physicality to lose positions.

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01-22-2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Are you insinuating that the Panthers are contenders? I love how much that team works and would kill for a time machine so we could fire last year when we should have, and hire Dineen...

But the Panthers are overachievers...

if success to you means a return to being a 1 round playoff team, then sure, follow the panthers route...
Use your words. I didn't say that the Panthers were contenders. I simply use them as an example of how a team can be dramatically different from year to year with certain significant changes.

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01-22-2012, 11:55 AM
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The St. Louis Blues went from zeros to heros with just a move behind the bench.

I don't believe this team needs a complete blowup.

certainly, some players need to be shown the door but there is a lot of good talent on this team.

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01-22-2012, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havok89 View Post
...

Roy, Stafford, and Boyes are dead weight, and should be traded for picks/futures. This still leaves us with Vanek, Ennis, Pominville, and Kassian as our top six wingers going into the future.
....

Next year's top six:

Vanek-Adam-Pominville
Ennis-Grigorenko-Kassian
Only on HF is Kassian a top-6 winger next season and Roy/Stafford dead weight. Kassian is having trouble getting motivated in his first professional season. Is that not incredibly alarming to you? What's going to happen when he's fat and happy with a long-term contract for millions?

And we're not getting Grigorenko, sadly. The cavalry will return just in time to push us closer to #10 than #1. And even if we had the worst record in the league, this is Buffalo we're talking about here, and we'd undoubtedly lose the lottery to a team who'd pick Grigorenko.
__________________________

The danger in "blowing it up" is that we could be stuck in an Edmonton-like perpetual rebuild. This will be their fourth straight season with a top-10 pick and, while they have some nice pieces, is their team any closer to winning anything of importance?

Beechsack mentioned Florida earlier when talking about a team who could turn it around quickly. I think an even better example is Ottawa. How long ago was it that there were three Spezza proposals per day on the trade board, the talk that they "owed it" to Alfie to trade him to a contender, the talk that Phillips should be traded for a low-1st, and Michalek should be moved for whatever because he can't stay healthy. Instead, they changed their coach--what a novel freaking concept--made a savvy trade for a player in need of a scenery change, and brought up some hungry young players, and now they're a top-5 team in the conference, and their future looks incredibly bright (I loved their recent drafts, too.)

You don't need to enter into a five-year rebuild. Trade off expiring assets who aren't here for the long haul for prospects and picks, build the pipeline, make savvy moves, and get a new voice in the locker room. That's what the focus should be right now.

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01-22-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Don't look at Calgary today, look at them 3 years ago..

Jaybo is more of a franchise defensemen then Myers...
Adam isn't a center
Kassian has serious questions in his development at this stage
Ennis is overrated flash

5 years away...
I'll agree with your comments on Adam and Kassian. Ennis is not overrated, the kid plays with hustle and heart, he's as small as Gerbe and not as truculent but he plays with more heart than Stafford and Roy combined. Myers is at least as good as JayBo is right now, maybe a little better than JayBo. We can let go of all our underachieving vets, keep the youth and build from there. Most of all we need a new GM, Darcy is way too complacent to do the things that need to be done to be a winner.

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01-22-2012, 12:01 PM
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It is possible that a coaching change makes us a contender again like Hitchcock did to the blues but of we do blow it up what is our new core going to be?
On forward I see ennis, Adam, Kassian, armia and whoever we draft this year.
On defense I see Myers and Mcnabb as two good young guys to build around, phsyk could be on that group too.
And I think we are good for the next ten year with Enroth in goal.
I think that would be a pretty good core to build around.
Ehrhoff will be here for a while
Leino will be here a while
I could see vanek being included into the new core as he is still pretty young.
Everyone else can go

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01-22-2012, 12:03 PM
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The Buffalo media aren't the only ones advocating the Sabres to start over - it seems media members around the NHL are forming the same conclusion:

Quote:
The big-budget Sabres loom as the NHLs largest disappointment this season. Injuries have been a mitigating circumstance in the teams struggle, but complacency is the biggest issue.

Owner Terry Pegula believed he could build a Stanley Cup contender by lavishing huge contracts on free-agent players. He created a country club atmosphere instead, where his veteran players are content to mail in loss after loss while tracking their lucrative financial investments.

Saturdays loss plunged Buffalo to 14th in the Eastern Conference standings. For a team with a $65 million payroll, this abject failure is stunning.

So what does Pegula do now?

Coach Lindy Ruff has no idea how to motivate this team, so he must go. I take full responsibility, Ruff told reporters after the latest loss.

Great now leave.

General manager Darcy Regier targeted these disappointing free agents, so, he too, must depart. He flushed tens of millions of dollars down the toilet.

Moving players will be difficult, given their onerous contracts, but the Next Regime could find takers for a Derek Roy (Montreal?) or even a Ryan Miller if the franchise decides to start over from scratch.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hocke...a4bcf6878.html

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01-22-2012, 12:11 PM
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Only on HF is Kassian a top-6 winger next season and Roy/Stafford dead weight. Kassian is having trouble getting motivated in his first professional season. Is that not incredibly alarming to you? What's going to happen when he's fat and happy with a long-term contract for millions?

And we're not getting Grigorenko, sadly. The cavalry will return just in time to push us closer to #10 than #1. And even if we had the worst record in the league, this is Buffalo we're talking about here, and we'd undoubtedly lose the lottery to a team who'd pick Grigorenko.
__________________________

The danger in "blowing it up" is that we could be stuck in an Edmonton-like perpetual rebuild. This will be their fourth straight season with a top-10 pick and, while they have some nice pieces, is their team any closer to winning anything of importance?

Beechsack mentioned Florida earlier when talking about a team who could turn it around quickly. I think an even better example is Ottawa. How long ago was it that there were three Spezza proposals per day on the trade board, the talk that they "owed it" to Alfie to trade him to a contender, the talk that Phillips should be traded for a low-1st, and Michalek should be moved for whatever because he can't stay healthy. Instead, they changed their coach--what a novel freaking concept--made a savvy trade for a player in need of a scenery change, and brought up some hungry young players, and now they're a top-5 team in the conference, and their future looks incredibly bright (I loved their recent drafts, too.)

You don't need to enter into a five-year rebuild. Trade off expiring assets who aren't here for the long haul for prospects and picks, build the pipeline, make savvy moves, and get a new voice in the locker room. That's what the focus should be right now.
Nearly the entire Oilers top 6 is under 23 years old. With a couple of shrewd FA moves that bolsters their D and the development of their players I could see them contending in a couple of years.

But yes, I agree with you, there's no need to go the Edmonton Oilers route, if we make smart moves, get a new coach and sell off the parts that don't fit and add ones that do, we should be okay.

I'd like Grigorenko though.

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01-22-2012, 12:17 PM
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I honestly think a lot of this has come from injuries.

If guys were healthy, there at least a fringe playoff team instead of being bottom feeders, regardless of the coach.

That being said, a move for a top 6 center and a shuffling of personnel and there once again, at the very least, a playoff team

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01-22-2012, 12:21 PM
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I truly think if we came dead last we would not win the lottery

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01-22-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Only on HF is Kassian a top-6 winger next season and Roy/Stafford dead weight. Kassian is having trouble getting motivated in his first professional season. Is that not incredibly alarming to you? What's going to happen when he's fat and happy with a long-term contract for millions?

And we're not getting Grigorenko, sadly. The cavalry will return just in time to push us closer to #10 than #1. And even if we had the worst record in the league, this is Buffalo we're talking about here, and we'd undoubtedly lose the lottery to a team who'd pick Grigorenko.
__________________________

The danger in "blowing it up" is that we could be stuck in an Edmonton-like perpetual rebuild. This will be their fourth straight season with a top-10 pick and, while they have some nice pieces, is their team any closer to winning anything of importance?

Beechsack mentioned Florida earlier when talking about a team who could turn it around quickly. I think an even better example is Ottawa. How long ago was it that there were three Spezza proposals per day on the trade board, the talk that they "owed it" to Alfie to trade him to a contender, the talk that Phillips should be traded for a low-1st, and Michalek should be moved for whatever because he can't stay healthy. Instead, they changed their coach--what a novel freaking concept--made a savvy trade for a player in need of a scenery change, and brought up some hungry young players, and now they're a top-5 team in the conference, and their future looks incredibly bright (I loved their recent drafts, too.)

You don't need to enter into a five-year rebuild. Trade off expiring assets who aren't here for the long haul for prospects and picks, build the pipeline, make savvy moves, and get a new voice in the locker room. That's what the focus should be right now.
When does your opinion of that route change?

the roster is a major issue. and the dumping of assets for picks won't change that in the short term.

attempting to "fix it", even with a new coach, could end up setting this franchise back even further.

Pegula should prefer a rebuild too... IMO. Instead of trying to make the mistakes of the last 5 years, under previous ownership, work.

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