My problems really aren't with Semin or Green in terms of intelligence. They're talented enough to get by own their own from time to time, and they are clearly extremely intelligent in terms of seeing possibilities on the ice.
My problem, from an intelligence perspective, are on the meat of the roster, whether you consider them supporting players or whatever. The veterans (guys like Chimera and Wideman, just name two guys that have been producing) can fill their roles but they're decision making has always been suspect. The younger guys (MoJo, Carlson) can produce but again, stupid decision after stupid decision.
People say this team is dumb because they've been making the same stupid decisions, on the micro level, over and over again for years. They have shown almost no ability to understand where their teammates are, or where the puck is, in the defensive zone for things like breakouts along the boards. Again, just an example but a particularly annoying one for me.
Again, I don't know how much you can focus building on intelligence when your centerpiece is a guy like Ovi (who's focus is always going to be on overpowering rather than outthinking, it's what he is), but it'd be nice to see them try at least with the complementary players. Give guys like MoJo and Carlson someone to learn some good habits from.
Well their "stupidity" I blamed a lot on BB over the years. You just have to wonder though if it's leadership of just dumb luck that we happen to have all of the high-skilled, low IQ players.
As I posted in the other thread, the only thing I like about the DH time is that the players do seem to be responding well, even if they are confused or pissed. They're following Dale off the cliff and that's a good sign for the future.
I think it was here before BB to be honest. In fact I give BB credit for making it work with energy rather than brains. Although it may be a case with working with what you have but hurting the development of the younger guys in the process. It's the biggest area I look at and think GMGM didn't bring in the right veteran influences over the years.
And, again, building around Ovi necessitates certain stylistic decisions that probably don't help but still...
Well their "stupidity" I blamed a lot on BB over the years. You just have to wonder though if it's leadership of just dumb luck that we happen to have all of the high-skilled, low IQ players.
As I posted in the other thread, the only thing I like about the DH time is that the players do seem to be responding well, even if they are confused or pissed. They're following Dale off the cliff and that's a good sign for the future.
I never saw this "stupidity" in all honesty. What I saw was a juggernaught offensive team with an excellent coach who adapted to what his players do best for the most part of his tenure here.
He just had a bunch of junk or inexperience on the critical positions of D and G to work with.
I have long said that this team has lacked the appropriate sandpaper ESPECIALLY on the back end and that is their greatest flaw.
I guarantee if we had pulled the trigger on Pronger a few years back (like I was strongly advocating) that we would have won a cup or two by now, BB would still be the coach, we'd still be playing that exciting brand of hockey and all our players would suddenly seem "smart"
Thats the kind of player that would have put us over the top for sure.
In the NFL Bill Belicheck was considered a fraud and an otherwise sucky coach. Then enter Tom Brady. Bellicheck is suddenly this mastermind and in the discussion of greatest coach ever.
We have lacked that big #1 dman since tinordi left and had many opportunities to acquire one over the years. GMGM just felt you didn't need that. He likes the puck movers who have decent mobility and play positionally.
The decision making and risk taking of those highly skilled players, when the risks aren't necessary or the probability of success is way too low... is my issue with all 4 young guns. And that's what I blamed on BB. Just never seemed to put boundaries and hold them accountable for making say, cross seam pass attempts early on the PP when up 4-2 late in the 3rd period... and watch the pucks deflected and a 2 on 1 result against Ovi or Green.
I do agree that there's just some lack of cohesion when it comes to the mindling players... and also some "I must feed Ovi" mindset that just shouldn't be there (BROUWER!).
I think it was here before BB to be honest. In fact I give BB credit for making it work with energy rather than brains. Although it may be a case with working with what you have but hurting the development of the younger guys in the process. It's the biggest area I look at and think GMGM didn't bring in the right veteran influences over the years.
And, again, building around Ovi necessitates certain stylistic decisions that probably don't help but still...
Agreed that it seems like the "unleashed the hounds" / "all power no brains" mentality worked. It did and was fun. But it wasn't going to develop those studs into a winnner when it mattered. EDIT: Agreed about GMGM construction of the team when the young guns were "young".
I've said before I don't begrudge BB for taking that approach. It was likely the easiest path to success... relatively. He made himself a NHL coach out of it, made him, players, GMGM, and Ted a lot of money.
The decision making and risk taking of those highly skilled players, when the risks aren't necessary or the probability of success is way too low... is my issue with all 4 young guns. And that's what I blamed on BB. Just never seemed to put boundaries and hold them accountable for making say, cross seam pass attempts early on the PP when up 4-2 late in the 3rd period... and watch the pucks deflected and a 2 on 1 result against Ovi or Green.
I do agree that there's just some lack of cohesion when it comes to the mindling players... and also some "I must feed Ovi" mindset that just shouldn't be there (BROUWER!).
We were highly successful under BB based on what we had on D and G. When you play aggressively with creativity you are defenitely going to make mistakes.
I loved that BB put the pedal to the metal for the full 60 minutes. Did we blow some leads? sure...did we make some errors of aggression? sure
How are we now? We blow leads playing passively and make mistakes based on passive tenative play.
We never had the D or G to cover those mistakes. It had very little to do with the mindset of the players but rather the physical limitations on our back end.
Shamo, Juice, Pothier, Erskine, Schultz...at times all these guys were in our top 6....and we still were a dominant team! Think of that and let it sink in for a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSHS
Agreed that it seems like the "unleashed the hounds" / "all power no brains" mentality worked. It did and was fun. But it wasn't going to develop those studs into a winnner when it mattered. EDIT: Agreed about GMGM construction of the team when the young guns were "young".
I've said before I don't begrudge BB for taking that approach. It was likely the easiest path to success... relatively. He made himself a NHL coach out of it, made him, players, GMGM, and Ted a lot of money.
it wasn't the system or mentality. LOTS of teams have used a similar approach and won. The difference is as I stated..personnel on the back end and in net.
We didn't just look to win..we looked to bury teams and I personally loved it. If we had Chara or Pronger on D we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd be talking about whether we are considered a dynasty or not....
In the NFL Bill Belicheck was considered a fraud and an otherwise sucky coach. Then enter Tom Brady. Bellicheck is suddenly this mastermind and in the discussion of greatest coach ever.
Cheater more like....
Agreed wholeheartedly about the vet. Now Pronger himself per se. I wouldn't have gone there. Should have been Chara.
Agree on pronger. Though there were only two shots with him a deadline deal and one had mcphee gotten him when the flyers did. The caps would not hav extended him. Strangley alzner and neuvy would probably been the ones to stay....for me the damage done to team confidence and the pressure created on them by losing more than took away the advantage of keeping all the young gems
We were highly successful under BB based on what we had on D and G. When you play aggressively with creativity you are defenitely going to make mistakes.
I loved that BB put the pedal to the metal for the full 60 minutes. Did we blow some leads? sure...did we make some errors of aggression? sure
How are we now? We blow leads playing passively and make mistakes based on passive tenative play.
We never had the D or G to cover those mistakes. It had very little to do with the mindset of the players but rather the physical limitations on our back end.
Shamo, Juice, Pothier, Erskine, Schultz...at times all these guys were in our top 6....and we still were a dominant team! Think of that and let it sink in for a second.
Oh I know what you're saying. But what I see now is a direct result of:
1. horrid depth and team construction
2. short-cutting in the past to that "success"
As I said if I'm a rookie coach with that roster, I do exactly what BB did. And you probably maintain it.
It's just up to the managers to realize that this style and development isn't going to work over the long haul and make the necessary adjustments to coaching and player acquisition.
Chara ..Pronger...take your pick. THAT is the kind of player we needed.
TX is right. The damage done to the team by NOT making that trade when we had a chance has permenentally established a doom and gloom mentality and thus a fragile mindset we have in big games.
We need to get an imposing authoritative player on the back end who can take charge of a game, move the puck, has a lot of nasty to his game..
Then we will suddenly see the trickle down effect to the entire team.
And yeah ..MP deserves a shot next year unless we go out and get a serious 2nd line center to force him out. I'd rather spend the money and resources to get the #1 dman if he is out there
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSHS
Oh I know what you're saying. But what I see now is a direct result of:
1. horrid depth and team construction
2. short-cutting in the past to that "success"
As I said if I'm a rookie coach with that roster, I do exactly what BB did. And you probably maintain it.
It's just up to the managers to realize that this style and development isn't going to work over the long haul and make the necessary adjustments to coaching and player acquisition.
I agree with you up to a point. I truly believe that style can work and Pittsburgh uses a very aggressive forecheck and doesn't sit back in a 1-2-2 for example. The only difference between our teams from a couple years ago to theirs is the disparity in the D and to a lesser extent G.
It is up to management to see this and McPhee never has in his entire stay here. Its just not what he believes in. He believes in "mobile puck moving D by committee" as opposed to having a more top heavy group with a smashmouth or two in there.
@BR... Should have been clear. Didn't mean "system" by "style".
I meant BB's managment style... limited accountability, rush and risk at all situations, wins matter more than fundamentals and teaching.
I believe he tried to switch a bit as we moved on. It's why I was warming a bit to him and would be a supporter if he pulled it off. But you just can't undo that history. It's why it's easier to move on. And that's managments failure.
This talk that BB's toxic influence somehow poisoned the players for good is mind-boggling. If that's the case, why has Flash, BB's prized pupil, excelled since he left?
Shouldn't he have failed miserably, having been taught no accountability or fundamentals?
This talk that BB's toxic influence somehow poisoned the players for good is mind-boggling. If that's the case, why has Flash, BB's prized pupil, excelled since he left?
Shouldn't he have failed miserably, having been taught no accountability or fundamentals?
Who said for good?
And if you can't believe your own judgement or mine, then perhaps you'd believe BB and gmgm who both realized that changes in attitude and the way that the coaching staff would "deal" with not playing the fundamentals.... Ie accountability. Cause obviously scoring goals and regular season wins weren't good enough.
Too bad it took them too long to reach that point.
And if you can't believe your own judgement or mine, then perhaps you'd believe BB and gmgm who both realized that changes in attitude and the way that the coaching staff would "deal" with not playing the fundamentals.... Ie accountability. Cause obviously scoring goals and regular season wins weren't good enough.
Too bad it took them too long to reach that point.
It's been purported on here many times that we're still suffering from Boudreau's influence, which is absurd. The only coaching influence we're suffering from now are the ones that are currently employed by the organization.
That's completely different than saying that Boudreau's initial managerial style didn't bring desired results, so he tried another style.
Oh I agree by now his influence is wearing off. And the lead case for sucker is roster depth, injuries, and potentially dale suckage. I'm not willing to go there yet. Though there is gathering data of evidence. Propounderence of evidence: yes. Beyond reasonable doubt.... Not there yet for me.
You are entitled to your opinion most certainly but I strongly disagree.
BB got alot out of players and many of those guys have to thank him for the careers they have had.
The guy has won at every single level he has coached and he by far has the best record a Caps coach has ever had.
He was spot on 90% of the time with the moves he made and I loved that fact that he was not a traditional "structure/trapping/matching lines/rolling 4 lines religiously" type of coach that had made this league a snoozefest.
BECAUSE he bucked that trend he got much negative feedback from the "old guard" and we "didn't play the right way"
He was a great coach and I would give anything to have him back as the Caps coach. I miss his candor and his aggressive approach.
Sure he had his favorites...but there isn't one coach I have ever seen who doesn't.
Man...I'm watching some old youtube game moments from back in the BB days. I don't think I have ever seen a Caps team play with as much emotion as some of those teams did.
Where has all the jumping into the glass gone? The bowling ball pin knock downs when we celebrate goals? Scoring seemingly at will?
It feels as if my dog has died and I am thinking back on the good times. All so sad and it started when BB went to the dreaded trap last year. Who knows if GMGM nudged him but clearly someone did (as BB stated about the whispers or whatever)
Yeah the montreal series didn't help but I thought we still had some swagger that year before we turned to trapping.
It's the biggest area I look at and think GMGM didn't bring in the right veteran influences over the years.
