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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread II

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01-25-2012, 01:07 PM
  #51
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Arguably the 2nd best defenceman in the NHL over a 12-13 year span. Forget arguably actually....the 2nd best defenceman in the NHL over a 12-13 year span.
It's a fine pick and one that can certainly be defended, but I don't think he was BDA.

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01-25-2012, 01:11 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Arguably the 2nd best defenceman in the NHL over a 12-13 year span. Forget arguably actually....the 2nd best defenceman in the NHL over a 12-13 year span.
My biggest quibble with you saying that about Pronger is that he has missed a LOT of games..

Not saying I wouldn't have picked him or anything.. he's been a damn good player.

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Old
01-25-2012, 01:13 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
It's a fine pick and one that can certainly be defended, but I don't think he was BDA.
I agree he wasn't the best D available, but talking about the NHL from 1998-2010ish I dare anyone to argue the top two weren't Lidstrom/Pronger.

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01-25-2012, 01:14 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would have to know vote totals. Consistently getting votes for both sides probably just means the voters were confused, which is why they abolished the difference and just started doing all dmen together in the 40s.

If he actually WON both RD and LD in different years, that might be something.
He did, I'll pull the results up. He's been listed either first or second team for both sides.

Right D: 6 times (2 first team, 4 second team)
Left D: 3 times (1 first team, 2 second team)
Combined: 1 (first team)

Full Results from his AS decade:
33-34:
RD: 4 (3rd), LD: 4 (t3rd) for first team
RD: 7, LD: 1 for second team

oddly enough he didn't get the second team nod over Shore here despite having one more vote then him in the second team voting. Possibly because Shore had 2 more in first team voting.

34-35:
RD: 4 (tied for 2nd), LD: 10 (won) for 1st AS team

35-36:
RD: 3 (3rd), LD: 3 (5th) for first team
RD: 8 (won), LD: 3 (t4th) for second team

36-37:
RD: 5 (2nd), LD: 1 (t-3rd) for first team
RD: 13 (won), LD: 2 (t-2nd) for second team

37-38:
RD: 0, LD: 1 for first team
RD: 3 (4th), LD: 3 (won) for second team

another odd voting situation there as well as 2 underafteds had more votes for LD 2nd team, but had no votes at the other side and Seibert was given the win.

38-39:
RD: 1 (t4th), LD: 3 (4th) for first team
RD: 11 (won), LD: 3 (t-3rd) for second team

39-40:
RD: 0, LD: 1 for first team
RD: 12 (1st), LD: 7 (won, also first) for second team

40-41:
RD: 3 (2nd), LD: 3 (4th) for first team
RD: 8 (won), LD: 2 (6th) for second team

41-42:
RD: 13 (won), LD: 5 (2nd) for first team

42-43:
RD: 10 (won), LD: 2 (5th) for first team

43-44 defense voting was unified (voted 2nd overall for D in 43-44)

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Old
01-25-2012, 01:15 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
I agree he wasn't the best D available, but talking about the NHL from 1998-2010ish I dare anyone to argue the top two weren't Lidstrom/Pronger.
You're definitely right, but if you break it up into 5 year blocks, there is an argument that Pronger isn't top 2 in any of the blocks.

He's a pretty good selection here though - I guess last draft canonized him into about the position he should go.

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01-25-2012, 01:17 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're definitely right, but if you break it up into 5 year blocks, there is an argument that Pronger isn't top 2 in any of the blocks.

He's a pretty good selection here though - I guess last draft canonized him into about the position he should go.
I think so too.. I know last draft a few of us were considering him for our next pick or two when he was taken.

Probably same thing here, especially with the constant run on D.

Pronger is kind of a prototypical ATD defenseman, too.

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Old
01-25-2012, 01:18 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
I agree he wasn't the best D available, but talking about the NHL from 1998-2010ish I dare anyone to argue the top two weren't Lidstrom/Pronger.
I also agree that in that time span OVERALL they are the 2 best, but there have been players that were better than Pronger throughout that span who maybe just started to enter their prime in the middle of that span, or were hitting the tail end of their prime as that time period began, like Bourque. This is difficult to do without mentioning undrafted players, but I think you get my point. 1x 1st Team All Star and 3x 2nd Team All Star is not all that impressive. BUT, I don't think Chris' all star and Norris record do his career and ability justice because he always seemed to miss a little bit of time every season.

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01-25-2012, 01:25 PM
  #58
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I think Pronger gets a bit overrated in this thing but it's not like it's a terrible pick, far from it.

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01-25-2012, 01:43 PM
  #59
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how do you create a ''box'' for statistics to make it clearer ( for a bio )

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01-25-2012, 01:45 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
how do you create a ''box'' for statistics to make it clearer ( for a bio )
where ( = [
(table)Name or year|stat|stat|stat
Name or year|stat|stat|stat (/table)

looks like:
Name or yearstatstatstat
Name or yearstatstatstat

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01-25-2012, 01:48 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
where ( = [
(table)Name or year|stat|stat|
Name or year|stat|stat| (/table)

looks like:
Name or yearstatstat 
Name or yearstatstat
Easiest way to get these column dividers "|" in is to make the table in Excel, create a blank column inbetween each actual column, and paste them in. Then copy the whole thing from Excel to HF

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01-25-2012, 02:07 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
That very same blueprint worked for you!
yep. It's about value. I got great value. I would never say that you have to have a top-10 goalie or you're screwed, or that the guys with bottom-10 goalies should pack it in.

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01-25-2012, 02:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
yep. It's about value. I got great value. I would never say that you have to have a top-10 goalie or you're screwed, or that the guys with bottom-10 goalies should pack it in.
Indeed. I don't think there is a certain ticket to winning, but just like the NHL playoffs you'd better have 3 lines that can score any given shift.

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01-25-2012, 02:10 PM
  #64
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It's also the fact that, much like the real NHL, it never feels like there are enough "true #1 defensemen" to go around.
True enough. And just like the NHL, teams without one only win about 1 in 4 times...

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01-25-2012, 02:36 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
how do you create a ''box'' for statistics to make it clearer ( for a bio )
easiest way is to quote and copy a post with a table, and edit it.

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Old
01-25-2012, 02:42 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
True enough. And just like the NHL, teams without one only win about 1 in 4 times...
yet it's amazing how much the value of an elite defenseman is pooh-poohed every time it comes time to vote for the hart, pearson and smythe trophies. Why is it so hard for some to believe an elite defenseman has the impact of an elite forward? (if not more)

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Old
01-25-2012, 02:44 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
yet it's amazing how much the value of an elite defenseman is pooh-poohed every time it comes time to vote for the hart, pearson and smythe trophies. Why is it so hard for some to believe an elite defenseman has the impact of an elite forward? (if not more)
Big numbers are pretty.

"Oh, 80+? well, that's bigger than 40-50!"

"Oooh, .936. That's a big number, if you disregard the little dot."

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01-25-2012, 02:52 PM
  #68
TheDevilMadeMe
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Not to mention the fact that defensemen rarely stand out in highlight reels the way forwards and goalies do.

Scott Stevens should have won the 1995 Smythe (in addition to the one he actually won), and IMO, there is a good case a dman should have won the 2010 Smythe.

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01-25-2012, 03:36 PM
  #69
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I think Pronger is a great pick here. He can carry a team on his back and thoroughly dominate his opponents.

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01-25-2012, 03:38 PM
  #70
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
I think Pronger is a great pick here. He can carry a team on his back and thoroughly dominate his opponents.
So can every defenseman drafted so far

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01-25-2012, 03:44 PM
  #71
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So can every defenseman drafted so far
Sure

But Pronger is also a physical specimen.

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Old
01-25-2012, 03:49 PM
  #72
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So can every defenseman drafted so far
Heck, pretty much every player at this point.

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Old
01-25-2012, 04:20 PM
  #73
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Just made a little Red Kelly bio , will probably add some more or if anybody got something just tell me.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...19&postcount=6

Includes all-star team voting proving Kelly is a 4 Norris Trophy winner in value and even more with his other finishes.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 01-25-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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Old
01-25-2012, 05:11 PM
  #74
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To Leafs Forever
#51, #78
To EagleBelfour
#57 #72

Leafs Forevers OTC. Sorry for the delay.

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Old
01-25-2012, 05:15 PM
  #75
BenchBrawl
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What gives Potvin the edge over Kelly defensively except canon?

Physical play is great but it doesn't mean he's better defensively , I'm trying to figure it out and I have yet to find anything that ressemble a sure thing.

Everything I read about Kelly is that he was elite defensively , what makes people think otherwise?

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