Well, this wasn't the plan, but a bargain is a bargain...
I'm happy to be able to select the last of the Magnificent Seven: Martin Brodeur.
Please PM the next GM for me. I'm stuck on my phone right now.
I almost drafted Brodeur to have a Hasek - Brodeur duo ...
... Obviously I'm kidding, but if I had knew he would of been available at this point, no doubt I'm taking someone like Howie Morenz at 14. I think we all agree around here that Brodeur shouldn't be in the discussion of the best goaltender of All-Time, but he's still an elite goalkeeper in this draft. Fantastic value at this point, and with Messier the best value of the draft so far. Kudos!
I almost drafted Brodeur to have a Hasek - Brodeur duo ...
... Obviously I'm kidding, but if I had knew he would of been available at this point, no doubt I'm taking someone like Howie Morenz at 14. I think we all agree around here that Brodeur shouldn't be in the discussion of the best goaltender of All-Time, but he's still an elite goalkeeper in this draft. Fantastic value at this point, and with Messier the best value of the draft so far. Kudos!
On the subject, can any of the vets recall a ridiculous goaltending tandem that included two obvious starters in a 28+ team draft?
Yeah I think Brodeur is an awesome pick here. I actually tried to PM Dreak about a trade for the 55th to get him, but when he told me Brodeur was the guy he was conditionally wanting, my first thought was oh well, no steal at 55 for me. Good stuff Dreak (and Hobnobs of course as well).
On the subject, can any of the vets recall a ridiculous goaltending tandem that included two obvious starters in a 28+ team draft?
Not that ridiculous. But I do remember once a GM drafting a starter as a backup just to mess with other teams who didn't have one yet. But it was like 5 years ago.
you scared of what we could find? Like that Kelly is just as good defensively than Potvin if we take out the canon? Just talking hypothetically , maybe this is not the case and Kelly is not as good.
I'm not overselling anything , I'm just pointing something that I think need to be corrected , a lot of people do think Kelly is below-average defensively , which is false , so I thought trying to bring the truth about players was the main goal of the ATD , I didn't know you had a clock on you with limited time to try to make your point.
Eaglebelfour stated that Kelly was definitely above-average defensively in the ATD , this is not something that was said often around here , so by deleting it you're not really saving the thread , you're just punishing my 1st player value.
If a line has to be drawn , a second part of a post shouldn't be where the line is , 1 single round later.It's not like we're in round 5 and I'm going all crazy with Kelly.This happened 3 days ago.
Kelly is not below average. He's above average, and you'd be hard pressed to find somebody in this draft that would call him below average. You say there is nothing but canon to suggest Potvin>Kelly defensively, but what evidence is there that Kelly>Potvin defensively? You've got some quotes that call Kelly "great" defensively, but if you want to get into a quote war, I can pull out gems about Potvin like
Quote:
a hard-hitting defensive stalwart.
...He, like his team, could play any way you wanted. Rough, physical defensive hockey;
as a tough physical presence in his own end of the rink. He was one of the most complete blueliners to ever step onto the ice. A less discussed facet of Potvin's game was his mean streak. Opposing forwards learned quickly that they were better served avoiding confrontations with one of the NHL's lesser-known tough guys.
exceptional talent at both ends of the ice,
It can go on and on, and frankly, it would be a waste of your time to play the quote game. Through a significant amount of research, canon has determined Potvin>Kelly defensively, and unless you can bring something to the table that suggests otherwise, I don't see why this debate is happening. I think this is the point vecens is trying to make. I (and I think vecens would agree) am all for debating the merits between two players, but when you just go out and make a statement saying:
"We could feel the stress of every GM wanting a decent n1 , which is why I picked Kelly over a bunch of great Montreal Canadiens at 18th." and "You see what I'm talking about people? Kelly is far from being over here , lots of things still need to be corrected.
How is Kelly average defensively? What proof or even quote do you have that say that Kelly was anything but elite defensively?
The subject has gone too far in your mind but as of right now you didn't brought anything that denies Kelly's elite defensive play when he was in the league.
What proves Potvin is better defensively than Kelly?
Or even suggests?
More physical? Fine , but better defensively? Bring your points and maybe I'll give it to you if it make sense.
I'm waiting just here."
they provide nothing to the discussion. If you've got some evidence to back this up, great! I'd love to read it and discuss the merits of the debate, but if you're just throwing out these statements, they provide nothing to the discussion. If you have something to bring to the table, please bring it. If you're just going to throw out statements with nothing to back them up, I don't see the point.
Not that ridiculous. But I do remember once a GM drafting a starter as a backup just to mess with other teams who didn't have one yet. But it was like 5 years ago.
I remember a Terry Sawchuk - Borderline top-10 goaltender duo, I think ATD5 or 6. Before I started playing.
Was super hard to pass on Brodeur. But I just couldn't visualize my team forming with him and Richard.
Brodeur outleting the puck to the Rocket? I can see it. I disagree with whoever says goalies don't have different skillsets. Brodeur might not even be the BGA in terms of stopping the puck, but his ability to play like a third defenseman is so useful against teams trying to dump and chase. Not to mention the fact that he renders your backup goalie irrelevant.
Brodeur outleting the puck to the Rocket? I can see it. I disagree with whoever says goalies don't have different skillsets. Brodeur might not even be the BGA in terms of stopping the puck, but his ability to play like a third defenseman is so useful against teams trying to dump and chase. Not to mention the fact that he renders your backup goalie irrelevant.
It's all relative. He wouldn't be able to handle 70-75 games a season in this league.
Kelly is not below average. He's above average, and you'd be hard pressed to find somebody in this draft that would call him below average. You say there is nothing but canon to suggest Potvin>Kelly defensively, but what evidence is there that Kelly>Potvin defensively? You've got some quotes that call Kelly "great" defensively, but if you want to get into a quote war, I can pull out gems about Potvin like
It can go on and on, and frankly, it would be a waste of your time to play the quote game. Through a significant amount of research, canon has determined Potvin>Kelly defensively, and unless you can bring something to the table that suggests otherwise, I don't see why this debate is happening. I think this is the point vecens is trying to make. I (and I think vecens would agree) am all for debating the merits between two players, but when you just go out and make a statement saying:
"We could feel the stress of every GM wanting a decent n1 , which is why I picked Kelly over a bunch of great Montreal Canadiens at 18th." and "You see what I'm talking about people? Kelly is far from being over here , lots of things still need to be corrected.
How is Kelly average defensively? What proof or even quote do you have that say that Kelly was anything but elite defensively?
The subject has gone too far in your mind but as of right now you didn't brought anything that denies Kelly's elite defensive play when he was in the league.
What proves Potvin is better defensively than Kelly?
Or even suggests?
More physical? Fine , but better defensively? Bring your points and maybe I'll give it to you if it make sense.
I'm waiting just here."
they provide nothing to the discussion. If you've got some evidence to back this up, great! I'd love to read it and discuss the merits of the debate, but if you're just throwing out these statements, they provide nothing to the discussion. If you have something to bring to the table, please bring it. If you're just going to throw out statements with nothing to back them up, I don't see the point.
I'm not saying Kelly was better than Potvin defensively.My point was questionning whether or not he was equal , or close to him , putting an end to this ''Kelly is average defensively'' none-sense that a GM said 1 page ago.I knew some people thought like this , and a GM proved it to me.I was right in bringing back this discussion.Of course , I didn't want to take 5 pages on it.If everybody had just let eaglebelfour made his comment , I would have answer and agreed with him , and this thing would have been over 25 posts ago.
Brodeur outleting the puck to the Rocket? I can see it. I disagree with whoever says goalies don't have different skillsets. Brodeur might not even be the BGA in terms of stopping the puck, but his ability to play like a third defenseman is so useful against teams trying to dump and chase. Not to mention the fact that he renders your backup goalie irrelevant.
Oh the problem was never how would Brodeur and Richard co-exist. The problem was the opportunity cost of it. I take Brodeur, I have no number 1 d-man. I do my best in the 3rd round, and I have another hole, etc...
Now that the list is updated, here are some thoughts on recent picks.
Scott Stevens - He belongs around here. A game-changer in the sense that he could lay you out in the middle of the ice and give his team immediate momentum. Add in that he was a stud in his own end and has some offensive capabilities at the beginning of his career (not that he was better then)..and I like him as a top-50 player.
Chris Pronger - Some didn't like it, some do. I fall in the latter category. He's large, mean, contains a cannon of a shot, is a stud in his own end, etc...he pretty much does it all. Isn't that fast of a skater so may have to balance that out with a quicker partner, but damn does Chris bring a lot to the table, especially when it comes time for the playoffs.
Frank Boucher - Was the other guy I considered with Apps..just felt a little more comfortable with Syl going forward. You got one of the best playmakers ever though in Frank.
Al MacInnis - Well..he was 28th last draft..this is more or less where he should go.
Martin Brodeur - When I referred to me taking a goalie in the first once before and ****ing it up, it was when I took this guy above Hasek..yeah, 70's still hasn't let me forget that one. Good value here for him getting the 7th best goalie in a 32-team draft in the mid 50's. That means you have an advantage in net over at least 20 guys..not a bad idea when you can get him at such a pick.
Oh the problem was never how would Brodeur and Richard co-exist. The problem was the opportunity cost of it. I take Brodeur, I have no number 1 d-man. I do my best in the 3rd round, and I have another hole, etc...
Picking a winger and a goalie is probably the hardest way to start a team.People tend to favor centers and defensemen as cornerstones.
At least you showed some cojones last draft and traded down - then started your team with 4 forwards. We need more uncertainty like that around here.
I honestly didn't plan to do that. I think I intended to come out of that with two forwards and two defencemen. But the runs on d-men went absurd. Heck, I was two picks away from just taking Frank Boucher to centre Richard.
Now that the list is updated, here are some thoughts on recent picks.
Scott Stevens - He belongs around here. A game-changer in the sense that he could lay you out in the middle of the ice and give his team immediate momentum. Add in that he was a stud in his own end and has some offensive capabilities at the beginning of his career (not that he was better then)..and I like him as a top-50 player.
Chris Pronger - Some didn't like it, some do. I fall in the latter category. He's large, mean, contains a cannon of a shot, is a stud in his own end, etc...he pretty much does it all. Isn't that fast of a skater so may have to balance that out with a quicker partner, but damn does Chris bring a lot to the table, especially when it comes time for the playoffs.
Al MacInnis - Well..he was 28th last draft..this is more or less where he should go.
I really hope GM's don't fall into the trap of thinking of MacInnis a soft, poor defensive player who only contributes on the offensive end.
Sometimes us as GM's get to wrapped up in the fantasy aspect of this and fall in love with the "physical dominant side of things etc...
I mean MacInnis has twice the accolades as Pronger. MacInnis is a prime Ray Bourque away from 2 more Norris trophies.
You want to bring it in the playoffs??
In 1998-99 as a 35 year old MacInnis averaged over 35 minutes a game for the Blues when they lost in the Conference finals to Dallas. He averaged over 30 minutes a game again in 2000-01 as a 37 year old when they lost in the Conference Finals to Colorado.
****Al MacInnis led the 90's in goals for defenseman. YES Not Ray Bourque, not Paul Coffey, not Nik Lidstrom
****Al MacInnis is 3rd in playoff goals from 1980-89 (Behind Coffey and Potvin) and tied for first with Paul Coffey for playoff PPG
Last edited by markrander87: 01-25-2012 at 11:04 PM.
My point is that a random cherrypicked stat doesn't prove anything.
Are you serious? Honestly, you really want me to go through and list every random "cherry picked stat"
Several GM's use and used % methods, what if methods etc... Top 14 in goals for the top 7 peak seasons of their career etc.. and leading a decade in goals for defenseman is a cherry picked stat?
I'm really thinking that MOD status is going to your head.
Are you serious? Honestly, you really want me to go through and list every random "cherry picked stat"
Several GM's use and used % methods, what if methods etc... Top 14 in goals for the top 7 peak seasons of their career etc.. and leading a decade in goals for defenseman is a cherry picked stat?
I'm really thinking that MOD status is going to your head.
Okay fine, you proved that Al MacInnis had more goals in the 90s than Nicklas Lidstrom, who didn't join the NHL until 1992, Paul Coffey, who fell apart after 1996, and Scott Stevens and Chris Chelios, who spent half the decade as defensive defensemen.
