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why is everyone down on schenn?

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01-26-2012, 12:22 PM
  #51
Stephen
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
Is bad.Once upon a time S Sullivan,Smith,Kulemin,Gunnarson,Boyes,Courtnall all sucked.They weren't good enough for us the bottom dwellers,so they had to go on to be major players for better teams.Don't undervalue Schenn's worth to another team.Many teams have offense but are weak on defense which has more value in the playoffs than regular season.Look at the Sedin's for example.Kings in the regular season,but a guy like Schenn would crucify and nullify them in the playoffs.Regular season is all wide open,loosey goosey and the point getters take all the glory.But if you want a cup,you need to punish guys game after game.Just ask Boston who wore the twins into a pulp.

Schenn is worth more than JVR to a cup contender.It isn't Schenn plus ? for JVR,dream on.It is JVR + ? for Schenn,since PHilly is a contender,just lost Pronger and needs defense.You think guys like Schenn grow on trees?Think again!He will be a stud on another team for 10 years.The fact Leaf fans don't like him,bodes well for his future.
It's not really about hating Schenn, really. To me, when I look at the defensive corps on Vancouver, Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia the past couple of years as cup finalists, you have guys like Johnny Boychuk and Adam McQuaid who really stand out as physical shut down defensemen, but they're not very high on the team's totem pole in terms of importance. So if you can trade a guy like Schenn who isn't bringing that much or being that effective in his advertised role for a big upgrade at a key position, you might have to do it.

Schenn showed some glimpses last year that he could improve his game, but he seems to regress back to square one quite frequently. I don't know why, I'm not qualified to say, but at some point you have to wonder if they're growing pains or if he's not suited to the modern game, or if there's some flaw with his skillset or hockey sense. If the powers that be determine these are fundamental flaws that will always set him back, it might be a good idea to trade him away while the value is high.

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01-26-2012, 12:29 PM
  #52
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I would give schenner another year until I deem him expendable. I think he has alot of unneeded weight and maybe some serious skating practice with tavares over the summer wouldnt be a bad idea. He was a much better player last year, so there really is no point in moving him when his value is so low, unless we get someone good.

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01-26-2012, 12:37 PM
  #53
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People here don't realize that it's asset management at the end of the day. Shut-down defenseman are great to have but the priority of adding a star top 6 player adds much more to our team. We severely lack in star talent in our top 6, realize that its not a knock on Schenn. It's just the opportunity cost to invest in another player

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01-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #54
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People here don't realize that it's asset management at the end of the day. Shut-down defenseman are great to have but the priority of adding a star top 6 player adds much more to our team. We severely lack in star talent in our top 6, realize that its not a knock on Schenn. It's just the opportunity cost to invest in another player
This. Part of it is about him struggling but the main thing is that when you have a chance to add a top 6 star player you trade the Defensive D-man every time.

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01-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SeenSchenn2 View Post
This is a great post. Especially for the younger Leaf fans who wrent around for the Courtnall's, etc.

Like Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Bozak, (Holzer to an extent), etc... If these guys are given till 24/25 to breakout and really prove the worth, there's no reason Schenn can't do the same
The difference is Schenn entered the league as an 18-year-old, while Kulemin, Gunnar, and Bozak didn't until their early 20's. So, relative to how long they've been in league, they have been given roughly equal time to break out. IMO this is one of the main causes for concern regarding Schenn that people have.

Here's the thing with age: it isn't age in and of itself that's important. All things being equal there is no real difference between a 22-year-old and a 25-year-old. Age is just a very good indicator of other factors that are (in and of themselves) important. Primarily these are experience, physical maturity, and emotional/psychological maturity. If there's any I'm missing please let me know, but in my mind it's these 3 factors that generally separate someone who's 22 and someone who's 25.

Take Gardiner and Kadri as examples.

Gardiner is only 14 months younger than Schenn. So what is the difference between the two? Mainly it's experience: Gardiner has played only 42 NHL games compared to Schenn's 279, i.e. he has just 15% the NHL experience that Schenn does. So, in the case of Gardiner, it's meaningful to point to his youth as a reason for why he isn't a premier defencemen yet, while in the case of Schenn it isn't (at least, not nearly to the same extent). In Gardiner's case his youth is an accurate indicator of his inexperience while in Schenn's case it isn't.

With Kadri there is a similar analysis that can be done with physical/emotional/psychological maturity in addition to the difference in experience. (Note: I'm a huge fan of Kadri so this isn't meant as a slight on him; he just still has some maturing to do but that's all part of the process). Kadri is only 15 months younger than Schenn and has just 17% the NHL experience Schenn does. But, in addition to this, I think it's pretty clear that Schenn is much more physically and mentally mature than Kadri. Basically, Schenn is a full-grown man at this point. He has grown into his body completely and is mentally and emotionally completely matured (the guy is great in front of reporters and the like). With Kadri this isn't really the case. It's pretty clear that he's still growing into his body, getting his "man strength" as they call it, and still learning what his ideal weight and such is. It's similar with his mental development: he's still learning how to be a pro, how to deal with the media, how to deal with fan pressure, etc.

So, in the case of Kadri, it's meaningful to point to his youth as a reason for why he hasn't broke out yet, while in the case of Schenn it isn't. In Kadri's case his youth is an accurate indicator of his emotional/psychological maturity while in Schenn's case it isn't.

Remember people, this isn't 2008 any more. Schenn isn't a prospect and he's no longer the fresh-faced 5th overall pick straight out of Juniors. Relative to a lot of players he's basically a seasoned vet. It isn't unreasonable to be concerned that at this point in his career he's basically trying to recreate the success he had as a rookie.

And lastly, I'm sure there's people who've read this and are ready to object by pointing out that with defencemen they often take longer to reach their peak than forwards. This is definitely true to an extent. But I can't really think of any examples of D-men who played for ~8 years and then in their late 20's suddenly blossomed into the type of player Schenn is often envisioned to become. For every player you think of that did break out in their late 20's (Keith comes to mind for me) ask yourselves, how old were they when they entered the league?

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01-26-2012, 12:47 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
Is bad.Once upon a time S Sullivan,Smith,Kulemin,Gunnarson,Boyes,Courtnall all sucked.They weren't good enough for us the bottom dwellers,so they had to go on to be major players for better teams.Don't undervalue Schenn's worth to another team.Many teams have offense but are weak on defense which has more value in the playoffs than regular season.Look at the Sedin's for example.Kings in the regular season,but a guy like Schenn would crucify and nullify them in the playoffs.Regular season is all wide open,loosey goosey and the point getters take all the glory.But if you want a cup,you need to punish guys game after game.Just ask Boston who wore the twins into a pulp.

Schenn is worth more than JVR to a cup contender.It isn't Schenn plus ? for JVR,dream on.It is JVR + ? for Schenn,since PHilly is a contender,just lost Pronger and needs defense.You think guys like Schenn grow on trees?Think again!He will be a stud on another team for 10 years.The fact Leaf fans don't like him,bodes well for his future.
Nobody's saying trade him for a bag of pucks, and I'd be perfectly happy not trading him period. I agree that he COULD mature into a pretty good player, I see his upside as a super physical 2nd pairing dman who is very good defensively, and not a liability on offense. The point is that, until recently at least, a lot of fans on this board seemed to hype him as if he was already some sort of stellar defensive dman, with Shea Weber like potential on offense. His defense could be really good one day, but right now he's got strong areas of his defensive game (namely physicality and general board/corner work) as well as major defensive weaknesses (poor skating, gets caught out of position, gets beat 1 on 1, fails to see plays develop, not good at making that first pass to spark the breakout, etc.). People say "look at the hits and shot blocks, he's already a top defensive dman right now!", but in reality I'd say he's a very PHYSICAL dman, but his all around defensive impact at the moment is mediocre at best. Simply put, we get hemmed into our own zone and scored on a lot when he's on the ice. If we need to protect a lead I'd way rather have guys like Phaneuf and Gunnarsson out there over Schenn.

Basically, I love his physicality, but his overall game is that of a good bottom pairing dman, I feel that at the moment he's weak offensively, and only mediocre defensively. Upside wise I think he could improve a lot defensively, a bit offensively, and become a good 2nd pairing dman, though like with any younger player there's no guarantee he'll get there. He's a good player, but I just don't see him as some sort of amazing core piece. I'm happy to keep him around for a long time, I wouldn't be trying to actively trade him, but if there was a really good player coming back, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger and ship him out.


Last edited by ponder: 01-26-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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01-26-2012, 12:50 PM
  #57
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It's hilarious how we use his limited ice time as a way to show how great he's been, rather than the most important statistic itself, ICE TIME AS INDICATIVE OF HOW WELL ONE IS PLAYING.

Carry on...

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01-26-2012, 12:51 PM
  #58
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Schenn has been sloppy with his passes and his positioning.

So we're rightfully down on him.

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01-26-2012, 02:15 PM
  #59
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I'm going to throw out some defensive stats for Schenn from "behind the net." Defense is hard to quantify statistically, but this is about the best you can do. I'll compare him to all other Leafs dmen who've played 20+ games (there's 7 of them: Schenn, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Liles, Komi, Gardiner and Franson), and look at ES and PK stats for time on ice, quality of competition (whether said player is played against strong or weak lines), relative corsi (how badly we outshoot/get outshot when they're on the ice), and on ice goals against per 60 minutes (how often we get scored on when said players are on the ice).

Even strength stats:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

PK stats:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

ES TOI/game:
Schenn is 6th (out of 7) in ES TOI/game, ahead of only Franson

PK TOI/game:
Schenn is 5th (out of 7) in PK TOI/game, ahead of Liles and Franson (Franson basically does not kill penalties at all)

Quality of Competition (+- QoC) at ES:
According to this analysis, Schenn receives the 5th toughest minutes of the dmen, though he's roughly tied with 4th and 6th (Franson and Gardiner). Phaneuf and Gunnarsson receive easily the toughest minutes, which seems right based on watching games, where Phaneuf and Gunnarsson are used as the shutdown pair.

QoC on the PK:
Schenn is 6th in PK QoC, ahead of only Franson, who doesn't really play on the PK. He gets the easy PK minutes.

Relative Corsi, ES:
This is the differential in total shots directed at the net when the player is on/off ice, for when teams are in tie games and play 5 on 5 hockey. Schenn is 6th in relative Corsi, and WAY worse than any other dman but Komi, who he is only marginally better than. Basically, we get badly outshot when Schenn or Komi are on the ice, and again this jives perfectly with what I see when watching games.

Relative Corsi, PK:
Schenn is 6th in relative Corsi on the PK, again ahead of only Franson, who doesn't really play on the PK.

On ice goals against per 60 minutes, ES:
Schenn is ahead of only Liles, although really everyone is pretty close here except Gunnarsson (who allows way less goals than the rest at ES) and Gardiner (who allows a bit less goals than the rest at ES). Still, considering Schenn gets pretty easy minutes, and is supposed to be very good defensively, this is a bit disappointing.

On ice goals against per 60 minutes, PK:
Schenn is ahead of only Franson (who never PKs) and Liles (who barely PKs). When Schenn is on the ice on the PK, we allow roughly 12 goals per 60 minutes. Compare this to roughly 6 goals allowed per 60 minutes with Phaneuf, or 7-8 goals per 60 minutes with Gunnarsson, Gardiner and Komi. Again, Schenn is easily the worst of our regular penalty killers.



He ranks pretty terribly in all of these defensive stats. He earns few minutes (at ES and on the PK), he plays against weak competition (at ES and on the PK), we get badly outshot when he's on the ice (at ES and on the PK), and we allow a tonne of goals when he's on the ice (at ES and on the PK). While he certainly is a very good hitter and shot blocker, all the advanced defensive stats indicate that he's one of our worst defensive dmen overall. Phaneuf and Gunnarsson consistently rank as our top 2 defensively, whether at ES or on the PK.

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01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I'm going to throw out some defensive stats for Schenn from "behind the net." Defense is hard to quantify statistically, but this is about the best you can do. I'll compare him to all other Leafs dmen who've played 20+ games (there's 7 of them: Schenn, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Liles, Komi, Gardiner and Franson), and look at ES and PK stats for time on ice, quality of competition (whether said player is played against strong or weak lines), relative corsi (how badly we outshoot/get outshot when they're on the ice), and on ice goals against per 60 minutes (how often we get scored on when said players are on the ice).

Even strength stats:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

PK stats:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

ES TOI/game:
Schenn is 6th (out of 7) in ES TOI/game, ahead of only Franson

PK TOI/game:
Schenn is 5th (out of 7) in PK TOI/game, ahead of Liles and Franson (Franson basically does not kill penalties at all)

Quality of Competition (+- QoC) at ES:
According to this analysis, Schenn receives the 5th toughest minutes of the dmen, though he's roughly tied with 4th and 6th (Franson and Gardiner). Phaneuf and Gunnarsson receive easily the toughest minutes, which seems right based on watching games, where Phaneuf and Gunnarsson are used as the shutdown pair.

QoC on the PK:
Schenn is 6th in PK QoC, ahead of only Franson, who doesn't really play on the PK. He gets the easy PK minutes.

Relative Corsi, ES:
This is the differential in total shots directed at the net when the player is on/off ice, for when teams are in tie games and play 5 on 5 hockey. Schenn is 6th in relative Corsi, and WAY worse than any other dman but Komi, who he is only marginally better than. Basically, we get badly outshot when Schenn or Komi are on the ice, and again this jives perfectly with what I see when watching games.

Relative Corsi, PK:
Schenn is 6th in relative Corsi on the PK, again ahead of only Franson, who doesn't really play on the PK.

On ice goals against per 60 minutes, ES:
Schenn is ahead of only Liles, although really everyone is pretty close here except Gunnarsson (who allows way less goals than the rest at ES) and Gardiner (who allows a bit less goals than the rest at ES). Still, considering Schenn gets pretty easy minutes, and is supposed to be very good defensively, this is a bit disappointing.

On ice goals against per 60 minutes, PK:
Schenn is ahead of only Franson (who never PKs) and Liles (who barely PKs). When Schenn is on the ice on the PK, we allow roughly 12 goals per 60 minutes. Compare this to roughly 6 goals allowed per 60 minutes with Phaneuf, or 7-8 goals per 60 minutes with Gunnarsson, Gardiner and Komi. Again, Schenn is easily the worst of our regular penalty killers.



He ranks pretty terribly in all of these defensive stats. He earns few minutes (at ES and on the PK), he plays against weak competition (at ES and on the PK), we get badly outshot when he's on the ice (at ES and on the PK), and we allow a tonne of goals when he's on the ice (at ES and on the PK). While he certainly is a very good hitter and shot blocker, all the advanced defensive stats indicate that he's one of our worst defensive dmen overall. Phaneuf and Gunnarsson consistently rank as our top 2 defensively, whether at ES or on the PK.
Do last season

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01-26-2012, 02:36 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I'm going to throw out some defensive stats for Schenn from "behind the net." Defense is hard to quantify statistically, but this is about the best you can do. I'll compare him to all other Leafs dmen who've played 20+ games (there's 7 of them: Schenn, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Liles, Komi, Gardiner and Franson), and look at ES and PK stats for time on ice, quality of competition (whether said player is played against strong or weak lines), relative corsi (how badly we outshoot/get outshot when they're on the ice), and on ice goals against per 60 minutes (how often we get scored on when said players are on the ice).

Even strength stats:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

PK stats:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

ES TOI/game:
Schenn is 6th (out of 7) in ES TOI/game, ahead of only Franson

PK TOI/game:
Schenn is 5th (out of 7) in PK TOI/game, ahead of Liles and Franson (Franson basically does not kill penalties at all)

Quality of Competition (+- QoC) at ES:
According to this analysis, Schenn receives the 5th toughest minutes of the dmen, though he's roughly tied with 4th and 6th (Franson and Gardiner). Phaneuf and Gunnarsson receive easily the toughest minutes, which seems right based on watching games, where Phaneuf and Gunnarsson are used as the shutdown pair.

QoC on the PK:
Schenn is 6th in PK QoC, ahead of only Franson, who doesn't really play on the PK. He gets the easy PK minutes.

Relative Corsi, ES:
This is the differential in total shots directed at the net when the player is on/off ice, for when teams are in tie games and play 5 on 5 hockey. Schenn is 6th in relative Corsi, and WAY worse than any other dman but Komi, who he is only marginally better than. Basically, we get badly outshot when Schenn or Komi are on the ice, and again this jives perfectly with what I see when watching games.

Relative Corsi, PK:
Schenn is 6th in relative Corsi on the PK, again ahead of only Franson, who doesn't really play on the PK.

On ice goals against per 60 minutes, ES:
Schenn is ahead of only Liles, although really everyone is pretty close here except Gunnarsson (who allows way less goals than the rest at ES) and Gardiner (who allows a bit less goals than the rest at ES). Still, considering Schenn gets pretty easy minutes, and is supposed to be very good defensively, this is a bit disappointing.

On ice goals against per 60 minutes, PK:
Schenn is ahead of only Franson (who never PKs) and Liles (who barely PKs). When Schenn is on the ice on the PK, we allow roughly 12 goals per 60 minutes. Compare this to roughly 6 goals allowed per 60 minutes with Phaneuf, or 7-8 goals per 60 minutes with Gunnarsson, Gardiner and Komi. Again, Schenn is easily the worst of our regular penalty killers.



He ranks pretty terribly in all of these defensive stats. He earns few minutes (at ES and on the PK), he plays against weak competition (at ES and on the PK), we get badly outshot when he's on the ice (at ES and on the PK), and we allow a tonne of goals when he's on the ice (at ES and on the PK). While he certainly is a very good hitter and shot blocker, all the advanced defensive stats indicate that he's one of our worst defensive dmen overall. Phaneuf and Gunnarsson consistently rank as our top 2 defensively, whether at ES or on the PK.
Great stats work, this is more indicative of his game when I watch then the hits and block stats.

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01-26-2012, 02:44 PM
  #62
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People expected him to be better than Lidstrom,Orr,Potvin and Scott Stevens combined. Since he isn't, people think he's crap. Sure he makes mistakes, but he's young its just no one has patience for him when initially our team wanted to be patient with him.

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01-26-2012, 02:46 PM
  #63
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How he gets that many hits in that short of time is pretty amazing.
Came here to say that his younger brother is the same way.

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01-26-2012, 03:28 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
People expected him to be better than Lidstrom,Orr,Potvin and Scott Stevens combined. Since he isn't, people think he's crap. Sure he makes mistakes, but he's young its just no one has patience for him when initially our team wanted to be patient with him.
This is definately part of the problem. Like it's the case with Reimer, who's been hyped up to the moon and back, Schenn has had a hard time living up to the unrealistic expectations some of the fanbase have set for him. I don't blame/hate the players for this, but the idiots who start those unrealistic comparisons.

ponder's stats breakdown does indeed refect Schenn's defensive play, and it should be easy enough to see why he's getting as few minutes as he has been. This combined with his new contract at $3.6M arguably makes him as overpaid as Komi (who's been outperforming Luke this season).

ITO also made a great point about development curve of players. As odd as it may seem, but Schenn can be considered an NHL vet at 22. He isn't going to get much bigger, or faster as he ages, and he hasn't really shown much offensive flair in the WHL (unlike Pronger who was a PPG defensemen prior to entering the league).

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01-26-2012, 03:52 PM
  #65
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Do last season
Tough to do, since there were so many injuries/trades. Also, this site combines stats for the player's whole seasons, so looking at guys like Beauchemin and Kaberle would combine their stats for Toronto/Anaheim and Toronto/Boston, and would list them on the Anaheim/Boston pages only, this site isn't very good for traded players.

Last year, in terms of GA/60 mins, at even strength Schenn was better than Rosehill, Lebda and Komi, but worse than Phaneuf, Gunnarsson and Aulie. On the PK he was slightly better than Gunnarsson, slightly worse than Komi, and significantly worse than Aulie and Phaneuf (Lebda and Rosie received basically no PK time). Throwing Kabs and Beauch into the mix, Kabs had much better stats for both ES and PK goals against, but that's with some time with Boston, and he barely PKed anyways. Beauch had better PK goals against, worse ES goals against, but again that includes his Ducks time, hard to know what to make of it.

Last year, when Schenn was playing a lot better, and the dmen he was competing against were worse, he was average on our team in terms of getting scored on (ES and PK). This year, with Schenn playing worse, and with us having a better crop of dmen, he's close to the bottom of the barrel on the PK, and average at ES. Regardless, he has never had a huge defensive impact for us, in terms of keeping pucks out of the net.

I want to again stress that I think he COULD develop into a very good defensive dman, I just don't think he's there yet, at the moment I think his overall defensive impact is very mediocre. People list his hits and blocked shots as if that's all there is to defense, but watching games I feel his overall impact isn't anything special on d, we get hemmed into our own zone, scored on a lot, and have trouble breaking out when Schenn is on the ice. The stats back this up. He's only 22, he should improve with time, and could become a very good defensive dman with time, but at the moment he's more of a Komi type, REALLY physical, but not great at keeping the puck out of our net, or at contributing to the offense. When I see people say "he's already a top notch shutdown dman, with franchise dman potential" I simply do not agree at all, I think he's a good bottom pairing physical dman at the moment, with the potential to become a good 2nd pairing, physical dman with strong defense in the future.

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01-26-2012, 04:04 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
People expected him to be better than Lidstrom,Orr,Potvin and Scott Stevens combined. Since he isn't, people think he's crap. Sure he makes mistakes, but he's young its just no one has patience for him when initially our team wanted to be patient with him.
Not true, I'd like to see evidence of growth from one year to the next. It's awfully frustrating to see him reset his game back to struggling rookie level. To me as an outside observer who doesn't work with him day to day, this is troubling. It either means Schenn has exploitable fundamentals that the league has caught on to, and are finding ways to beat him (i.e. with speed) or there's something in his skillset that is unstable, like he's not that hockey smart and struggles with the basics. Or it means his player type isn't that effective, the way Komisarek also struggles as a 10 year veteran. I'd like to see that burgeoning two way defender we were seeing with him last year, but if he can't be that consistently, the Leafs have to find out why and make a decision on his future. Especially if we can get a number one center for him.

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01-27-2012, 09:54 AM
  #67
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Toronto fans have always been about "what can you do for me right now" not about being patient and building for the future. I know and even I used to be this way too.

Most D-men don't mature until they're about 26/27 years old. Schenn is 22 years old. He's going to go through ups and downs until he hits his groove. That may or may not happen this year, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.

But I know other cities that have traded away excellent D-men before they've hit that age. Like Phaneuf.

Schenn has a role to play and will only get better. Patience is such a virtue, especially when talking about the players we've drafted.

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01-27-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jayswagger View Post
Toronto fans have always been about "what can you do for me right now" not about being patient and building for the future. I know and even I used to be this way too.

Most D-men don't mature until they're about 26/27 years old. Schenn is 22 years old. He's going to go through ups and downs until he hits his groove. That may or may not happen this year, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.

But I know other cities that have traded away excellent D-men before they've hit that age. Like Phaneuf.

Schenn has a role to play and will only get better. Patience is such a virtue, especially when talking about the players we've drafted.
Read my reply earlier in the thread.

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01-27-2012, 10:18 AM
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Toronto fans have always been about "what can you do for me right now" not about being patient and building for the future. I know and even I used to be this way too.

Most D-men don't mature until they're about 26/27 years old. Schenn is 22 years old. He's going to go through ups and downs until he hits his groove. That may or may not happen this year, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.

But I know other cities that have traded away excellent D-men before they've hit that age. Like Phaneuf.

Schenn has a role to play and will only get better. Patience is such a virtue, especially when talking about the players we've drafted.
It sounds like CF and BB screwed up this player by not leaving him in junior and then not putting him in the minors.

The excuse is he's slow because he is young but now he's stuck as a 3rd. pairing defender in the NHL until he's 24-26 years old and entering his prime when he'll have learned how to be quicker.

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01-27-2012, 11:12 AM
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The lack of patience and ability to look at the big picture on these boards is mind-blowing, lol. Not everyone ... it just seems the majority.

I'm always baffled how people here can only seem to ever look at the present. If a GM takes a snap-shopt point in time view of his team, he'd be fired in days - but it seems the approach of armchair GM's throughout these boards.

Is 22 year old Schenn having a rough year after maybe bulking up too much? Maybe his confidence is a little down? Sure. Where does that fit into the big picture of the next 10 years? It's nothing. He's 22. I don't care how long he's been in the league - it generally takes D men until their 24/25 to put it all together and find their game. Every one of his draft class has struggled at times in their short carreers thus far. Phaneuf had rough years as he developed ... I remember Chris Pronger took until he was 24/25 before he found consistency in his game. On these boards, however - where people insist they have the patience to develop prospects - it's a "what have you done for me lately" thing.

Last year people wouldn't trade Kulemin unless Crosby was coming back the other way - today he's included in most proposals. The guy has serious talent - you don't think he can bounce back from an off year next year? Yet no one has the patience to look at the big picture, lol - it's all about - he's not playing well this year - so deal him. If it happened, next year would be about "Burke got ripped of in the Schenn / Kulemin deal - we should have kept him!!"

Lets face it people - when you have the youngest / 2nd youngest team in the league - guys are going to have off years until they find their game and put it all together. A little patience and looking at the big picture now and again can go a long way ....

The other thing going against Schenn is that too many people here don't realize the value of anyone who isn't a flash n' dash offensive player. If Burke said Schenn was available -there'd be 29 calls to his office the first day.

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01-27-2012, 12:16 PM
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Tough to do, since there were so many injuries/trades. Also, this site combines stats for the player's whole seasons, so looking at guys like Beauchemin and Kaberle would combine their stats for Toronto/Anaheim and Toronto/Boston, and would list them on the Anaheim/Boston pages only, this site isn't very good for traded players.

Last year, in terms of GA/60 mins, at even strength Schenn was better than Rosehill, Lebda and Komi, but worse than Phaneuf, Gunnarsson and Aulie. On the PK he was slightly better than Gunnarsson, slightly worse than Komi, and significantly worse than Aulie and Phaneuf (Lebda and Rosie received basically no PK time). Throwing Kabs and Beauch into the mix, Kabs had much better stats for both ES and PK goals against, but that's with some time with Boston, and he barely PKed anyways. Beauch had better PK goals against, worse ES goals against, but again that includes his Ducks time, hard to know what to make of it.

Last year, when Schenn was playing a lot better, and the dmen he was competing against were worse, he was average on our team in terms of getting scored on (ES and PK). This year, with Schenn playing worse, and with us having a better crop of dmen, he's close to the bottom of the barrel on the PK, and average at ES. Regardless, he has never had a huge defensive impact for us, in terms of keeping pucks out of the net.

I want to again stress that I think he COULD develop into a very good defensive dman, I just don't think he's there yet, at the moment I think his overall defensive impact is very mediocre. People list his hits and blocked shots as if that's all there is to defense, but watching games I feel his overall impact isn't anything special on d, we get hemmed into our own zone, scored on a lot, and have trouble breaking out when Schenn is on the ice. The stats back this up. He's only 22, he should improve with time, and could become a very good defensive dman with time, but at the moment he's more of a Komi type, REALLY physical, but not great at keeping the puck out of our net, or at contributing to the offense. When I see people say "he's already a top notch shutdown dman, with franchise dman potential" I simply do not agree at all, I think he's a good bottom pairing physical dman at the moment, with the potential to become a good 2nd pairing, physical dman with strong defense in the future.
I agree with everything you say, I appreciate all those stats you found.

Schenn just seems to lack fundamental hockey sense at times. What kind of real defensive defenseman isnt given PK minutes? A bad one.

He's a whopping 270 games into his career, while still only 22 still doesnt give me much confidence he will turn into an elite 1st pairing shutdown defender. At this point I would say Aulie's ceiling is similar to Schenn's while Schenn has significantly higher trade value. With our defensive depth, (especially Aulie, Holzer, Gunnerson) Schenn is a perfect trade chip IMO.

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01-27-2012, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
The lack of patience and ability to look at the big picture on these boards is mind-blowing, lol. Not everyone ... it just seems the majority.

I'm always baffled how people here can only seem to ever look at the present. If a GM takes a snap-shopt point in time view of his team, he'd be fired in days - but it seems the approach of armchair GM's throughout these boards.

Is 22 year old Schenn having a rough year after maybe bulking up too much? Maybe his confidence is a little down? Sure. Where does that fit into the big picture of the next 10 years? It's nothing. He's 22. I don't care how long he's been in the league - it generally takes D men until their 24/25 to put it all together and find their game. Every one of his draft class has struggled at times in their short carreers thus far. Phaneuf had rough years as he developed ... I remember Chris Pronger took until he was 24/25 before he found consistency in his game. On these boards, however - where people insist they have the patience to develop prospects - it's a "what have you done for me lately" thing.

Last year people wouldn't trade Kulemin unless Crosby was coming back the other way - today he's included in most proposals. The guy has serious talent - you don't think he can bounce back from an off year next year? Yet no one has the patience to look at the big picture, lol - it's all about - he's not playing well this year - so deal him. If it happened, next year would be about "Burke got ripped of in the Schenn / Kulemin deal - we should have kept him!!"

Lets face it people - when you have the youngest / 2nd youngest team in the league - guys are going to have off years until they find their game and put it all together. A little patience and looking at the big picture now and again can go a long way ....

The other thing going against Schenn is that too many people here don't realize the value of anyone who isn't a flash n' dash offensive player. If Burke said Schenn was available -there'd be 29 calls to his office the first day.
I've never heard of so much unfounded hope in a player as Schenn. How is it that a guy who often and objectively struggles with basic things like skating, receiving passes, shooting the puck quickly, puck watching, being out of position get so much rope for his below average performance? Why does he deserve so much more patience than kids like Jiri Tlusty, Kris Versteeg, Anton Stralman, Alex Steen who didn't work out here?

I don't actually mind keeping Schenn around, I'm in no rush to deal him, but at the same time this kid is benefiting big big time from some popularity contest here, because there is a mountain of hope for this guy relative to all the good he's done the past four years here. Even when he's been good, he hasn't ever been "wow" good. And this isn't about flash and dash.

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01-27-2012, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I've never heard of so much unfounded hope in a player as Schenn. How is it that a guy who often and objectively struggles with basic things like skating, receiving passes, shooting the puck quickly, puck watching, being out of position get so much rope for his below average performance? Why does he deserve so much more patience than kids like Jiri Tlusty, Kris Versteeg, Anton Stralman, Alex Steen who didn't work out here?

I don't actually mind keeping Schenn around, I'm in no rush to deal him, but at the same time this kid is benefiting big big time from some popularity contest here, because there is a mountain of hope for this guy relative to all the good he's done the past four years here.
You forgot my biggest Schenn peeve Stephen, the inability to clear the puck out of the freaking zone

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01-27-2012, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
It sounds like CF and BB screwed up this player by not leaving him in junior and then not putting him in the minors.

The excuse is he's slow because he is young but now he's stuck as a 3rd. pairing defender in the NHL until he's 24-26 years old and entering his prime when he'll have learned how to be quicker.
I'd say you hit the nail right on the head as usual Ulf, his body was ready for the pros....his development needed a couple more years of learning. Now he is a 3 and a half million a year "project"

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01-28-2012, 02:31 AM
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Do last season
exactly what i was wondering and want to see now

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