Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
I was never a Kovalchuk fan but Parise is a gem in my mind and IT'D BE A SHAME if they lost him because of the Kovalchuk cap hit. I'd rather build a team around Zach, IMHO.
If they can keep em both, good, if not, it's unfortunate, i think that trade was a mistake
Okay, but then by any measurable, so is Gunnarsson
As for the person that said, "Lou wouldn't blow it up...he's never done it before", my response would be: How many times have the Devils been (reportedly) in this situation? If the reports are true (and they may not be), this would be a unique situation which -may- require a unique response.
in what situation, having a pending UFA while still being in the playoff hunt?
Okay, but then by any measurable, so is Gunnarsson
As for the person that said, "Lou wouldn't blow it up...he's never done it before", my response would be: How many times have the Devils been (reportedly) in this situation? If the reports are true (and they may not be), this would be a unique situation which -may- require a unique response.
New Jersey isn't in a unique position. They are in the playoff hunt despite having a large number of man games lost. They are playing without their co #1 center, their #1/2 defensmen in Tallinder and a top 4 defensmen in Greene. Josefson was also injured the whole year and he started the season as theire #2 center with Zajac injured.
Didn't say there wasn't. OP's thesis = Parise should bring a greater return than Kovy; OP's conclusion = there is no middle ground. While I agree that Parise should in theory return more, I also think Lou will need to deal him if NJ is 7 or lower in the conference at the deadline. Let's face it, even if NJ holds on to make the playoffs this year, it isn't likely to make a deep run. Teams with good management, which I believe NJ is, recognize and start the rebuild before it is necessary. That time might just be now.
Yeah sorry, I'm never really clear when I write
I was referring to the OP not you when I said that.
Parise = Captain and team player. Makes those around him better. Does not have insane salary demands and is willing to wait out NJ's financial issues before he signs a longer contract. Can win championships.
Kovalchuk = great individual player. Hogs the puck and the majority of important minutes in games. Wants the most amount of money possible and if you dont give it to him he will take ten dollars less and play for Los Angelos. Can win you games.
Unless the owners say there's no money available to lock up Parise long term(as is rumored), in which case all bets are off. I don't think a smart organization like NJ would lose Parise to UFA without a return, if they know they won't be able to re-sign him up front.
If I was the owner and knew that I couldn't resigning Parise, I'd ask my Gm to get the best deal out there and try to maximise the loss of my best asset.
I can fully understand Lou for not wanting to move guys like Gomez and Martin, who apparently made it pretty clear they were going to test the market and bolt come july 1st, because we were on top of our division and looking at a top #3 seed.
As of right now, we aren't in the same situation and we are a rebuilding franchise on the fly. Our best d-men is a rookie who just turned 19 years of age last month. That right there should be a significant sign that this team isn't a contender for the cup.
I'll give you that Kulemin definitely hasn't been as good as advertised compared to last season. This year is kinda a wash for him, he's dealt with a lot with many of his close friends dying in the unfortunate plane crash. You have a point regardless.
Gunnarsson is definitely a top four defenseman at this point in the league and seriously is one of the most under-rated players in terms of overall play. Franson you could justify as a #4 defenseman in this league for sure, he just needs a little more polishing. There will always be value for a 6'5 220 pound defenseman with offensive upside.
Yeah, Kulemin I actually took in my pool, he's one of my favorite leaf players so please don't take this the wrong way
Even considering all this I still think he could be used as a piece, but if this is the trade on paper I still think Schenn would need to be moved and not the other two D in question.
To be honest I see Franson as a #5, but a lock for #5. Potential to be #4? Haven't like him enough the times I have seen him to justify that, but Leafs fans see him more than I do so maybe you're right.
If it was Schenn, Kulemin, 1st + Colborne, guaranteed 100% they'd get Parise. If you switch Schenn with Franson, I don't think it's as close. I definitely think a team from out west could match the proposed deal. If this deal went down you need to consider that 1st would likely lose value as leafs would imo skyrocket in the standings. Kulemin may bounce back, he might be a 1 hit wonder though, it's the kind of thing a GM will use against Burke and it will reduce his value for sure. Colborne is a really solid piece, so is Schenn, something around both those guys could be done imo. Even less than Colborne + Schenn + Kulemin + 1st might be doable imo, 1st then might be able to be switched to a conditional 1st based on blah blah blah and if not it becomes a 2nd/3rd etc.
I'm not a gm but I do think the overpayment for TO to land Parise would need to be massive. I think Burke is too smart a GM to pay what it would take. He'll go after him July 1st worst case scenario. Parise made it clear he wants to play for a contender.
Yeah, Kulemin I actually took in my pool, he's one of my favorite leaf players so please don't take this the wrong way
Even considering all this I still think he could be used as a piece, but if this is the trade on paper I still think Schenn would need to be moved and not the other two D in question.
To be honest I see Franson as a #5, but a lock for #5. Potential to be #4? Haven't like him enough the times I have seen him to justify that, but Leafs fans see him more than I do so maybe you're right.
If it was Schenn, Kulemin, 1st + Colborne, guaranteed 100% they'd get Parise. If you switch Schenn with Franson, I don't think it's as close. I definitely think a team from out west could match the proposed deal. If this deal went down you need to consider that 1st would likely lose value as leafs would imo skyrocket in the standings. Kulemin may bounce back, he might be a 1 hit wonder though, it's the kind of thing a GM will use against Burke and it will reduce his value for sure. Colborne is a really solid piece, so is Schenn, something around both those guys could be done imo. Even less than Colborne + Schenn + Kulemin + 1st might be doable imo, 1st then might be able to be switched to a conditional 1st based on blah blah blah and if not it becomes a 2nd/3rd etc.
I'm not a gm but I do think the overpayment for TO to land Parise would need to be massive. I think Burke is too smart a GM to pay what it would take. He'll go after him July 1st worst case scenario. Parise made it clear he wants to play for a contender.
BTW, the only other winger thats relatively the same age/production as Kulemin would be MacArthur.
Parise = Captain and team player. Makes those around him better. Does not have insane salary demands and is willing to wait out NJ's financial issues before he signs a longer contract. Can win championships.
Kovalchuk = great individual player. Hogs the puck and the majority of important minutes in games. Wants the most amount of money possible and if you dont give it to him he will take ten dollars less and play for Los Angelos. Can win you games.
You don't know this, it's pure speculation. Parise could very well take it to UFA and get an upward salary of 8 million a season. You really don't know what goes on in his mind so you can't speculate with your own opinion. Just like Brian Burke being stopped in Chicago for a transfer flight. It doesn't not necessarily a trade is in the works
You forgot the public refusal of 100 million dollars. I guess it's wrapped up in #1, but for full effect:
Parise turned down an unknown amount of money which may or may not be topped up in a subsequent offer
Kovalchuk turned down one of the most lucrative contracts in sports
The uncertainty about the Thrashers' relocation was also a big factor. Kovy didn't want to go to Winnipeg or Quebec. The Devils are in no danger of moving.
Why the hell would he go to New York if he wants to win?
Why wouldn't he? First in the league, big city, good travel, marketable player, etc. Plus they have capspace with Wolski off the books. And Parise fills in a need as 1st Line LWer, it's like he was destined to be a Ranger.
BTW, the only other winger thats relatively the same age/production as Kulemin would be MacArthur.
Yeah when I posted that I already realized it, so I tagged the "or a good prospect" bit on there
MacArthur is a guy I could see being moved oddly enough. To be honest down the road as a leafs fan I'd be happier keeping Kulemin probably. Obviously he might be a 1 hit wonder, but I doubt it. He plays a solid two-way game, and when he does hit he hits hard even if it isn't all that common that he goes for a big one.
Personally I think Colborne/Schenn is the starting point, add pieces from there. Kulemin does fit the NJ mold, but MacArthur is scoring goals now, and of course Kadri could always be used as a nice supplement for those guys as well. Honestly I think it would be tough to swallow what they'd need to trade in order to get him. Plus he's a UFA, imagine you gave up:
MacArthur
Colborne (ouch)
Schenn
2nd
Then Parise walks? Even though it's not a 1st... come on, Colborne is a top notch prospect, Schenn even though I've never been a big fan... he has major potential.
Why wouldn't he? First in the league, big city, good travel, marketable player, etc. Plus they have capspace with Wolski off the books. And Parise fills in a need as 1st Line LWer, it's like he was destined to be a Ranger.
Del Zotto needs a contract as well, McDonagh, Stepan and Anisomov the following season. The Rangers organization has been a joke for almost two decades, they could fizzle just as quick as their rise and Parise has much better choices then NY.
Why wouldn't he? First in the league, big city, good travel, marketable player, etc. Plus they have capspace with Wolski off the books. And Parise fills in a need as 1st Line LWer, it's like he was destined to be a Ranger.
NYR = 66 pts; DET = 67. Full disclosure, NYR has three games in-hand.
There is plenty of middle ground. Say the team receives an offer of a 1st and two good prospects. The team should then treat the situation as if they already have these assets, and ask would we trade those assets for the rental of Parise and the rights to negotiate a new contract before anybody else. If they would not trade those assets for a Parise rental, then they should trade Parise for those assets. The middle ground is a deal too good to refuse, and there are a lot of those on the table at the deadline. Mixed in is the team finances, and do they need short term funds, from this year's playoffs, or long term funds, by having younger and cheaper players fill key spots.
Last edited by officeglen: 01-26-2012 at 02:06 PM.
Reason: typo
There is plenty of middle ground. Say the team receives an offer of a 1st and two good prospects. The team should then treat the situation as if they already have these assets, and ask would we trade those assets for the rental of Parise and and the rights to negotiate a new contract before anybody else. If they would not trade those assets for a Parise rental, then they should trade Parise for those assets. The middle ground is a deal too good to refuse, and there are a lot of those on the table at the deadline. Mixed in is the team finances, and do they need short term funds, from this year's playoffs, or long term funds, by having younger and cheaper players fill key spots.
Lou will not trade Parise for an average package! You can quote me on that and hold me to it on TDD. You are telling me what the team should do while Devils fans are trying to tell you what Lou does.
Del Zotto needs a contract as well, McDonagh, Stepan and Anisomov the following season. The Rangers organization has been a joke for almost two decades, they could fizzle just as quick as their rise and Parise has much better choices then NY.
Devils are a joke right now.
Who are the 'much better choices' you speak of?
Rangers can easily make room for a player like Parise. They have the cap space now and they can keep him by trading Gaborik to make room for him if need be. There are no cap-causalities with the Rangers this moment and Sather is pretty good at negotiating bargain contracts for RFAs.
Rangers can easily make room for a player like Parise. They have the cap space now and they can keep him by trading Gaborik to make room for him if need be. There are no cap-causalities with the Rangers this moment and Sather is pretty good at negotiating bargain contracts for RFAs.
That is the reason why Parise won't go to NYR, they would be willing to trade Gaborik (a player they signed not too long ago) to fit Parise in. Then in 3 years theymay do the same thing. They are a joke of an organization.
If NJ can get over this financial hurdle then NJ is by far the better organization to stay with. Holik and Gomez can attest to that.
I think if he had to choose a franchise St Louis would be the way to go.
Rangers can easily make room for a player like Parise. They have the cap space now and they can keep him by trading Gaborik to make room for him if need be. There are no cap-causalities with the Rangers this moment and Sather is pretty good at negotiating bargain contracts for RFAs.
It's this attitude that is the problem. For the Rangers, today's high profile big money signings become tomorrow's expendables at best, and albatrosses at worst. Parise knows what happened to Drury, Gomez, Redden, etc. You casually talk about flipping Gaborik to make room. Ridiculous.
Trading Gaborik while his value is high and he's been healthy for a surprising stretch of time would actually be a really smart, forward thinking move that would bring in quality assets and allow the team to switch that cap space over to someone like Parise.
That is the reason why Parise won't go to NYR, they would be willing to trade Gaborik (a player they signed not too long ago) to fit Parise in. Then in 3 years theymay do the same thing. They are a joke of an organization.
If NJ can get over this financial hurdle then NJ is by far the better organization to stay with. Holik and Gomez can attest to that.
I think if he had to choose a franchise St Louis would be the way to go.
You say it like it's with such certainty! Rangers will be one of the many teams going after Parise this offseason, unless they happen to win the cup which would probably leave them content with their roster.
If the Rangers are such a joke organization can you explain to me:
1. Why are they better than the Devils? What does that make them, mediocre?
2. Why do they have the highest point % in the league?
3. Why are their core players home grown talent?
4. Why do free agents beg to come play here?
