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Old
01-27-2012, 12:50 PM
  #26
digdug41982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I'm surprised that you altered the deal from the other discussion so dramatically. What prompted many of the responses was your claim that:
I don't think Anaheim does the deal:

Kane, WPG 1st 2012 for Ryan

Thoughts on that one?

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01-27-2012, 12:53 PM
  #27
BigTuna49
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Neither team is adding a high pick like a 2nd rounder. These two players are very close in value.

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01-27-2012, 12:56 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I don't think Anaheim does the deal:

Kane, WPG 1st 2012 for Ryan

Thoughts on that one?
Worse honestly. These two players are very similar in value.

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01-27-2012, 12:57 PM
  #29
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If the season ended today, Winnipeg would pick something like 8th overall, right?

Just going off the compiled draft rankings at this point--that's possibly a defensive prospect the caliber of Dumba or Reinhart or Reily or Trouba.

Regardless of who's available, though, I don't think that the difference in value between Bobby Ryan and Evander Kane is anywhere near a top-10 pick in a fairly deep draft.

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01-27-2012, 12:57 PM
  #30
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What's the fascination with Kane and Ryan? This needed it's own thread, and now a poll?

I would vote that Ryan is the better player as well. What does that have to do with a trade value thread when you need to take multiple things into account?

Sheesh.

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Old
01-27-2012, 01:01 PM
  #31
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**** me, you started a poll.

Of course you chose to word it "Who is the better player". Not sure who here has argued who the better player is with you.

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01-27-2012, 02:04 PM
  #32
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I'm not quite sure how people can say Kane is equal or near equal in value to Ryan at this point in his career. And I especially don't understand how his value is so high that it would be Ryan + for Kane. Ridiculous.

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01-27-2012, 02:11 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Neither team is adding a high pick like a 2nd rounder. These two players are very close in value.
What makes their value close? Ryan's a 3 x 30 goal scorer, and on pace for his 4th in just 4 full seasons. I know you're going to use the "kane's only 20 argument", however, until he actually lives up to the hype you can't just make him as valuable as a proven asset. There's a bit of difference between thinking someone might or should reach a certain level versus someone who is already at that level.

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01-27-2012, 02:16 PM
  #34
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The idea of Kane being equal in value to Ryan is simple.

They have the same amount of points, one has played less games and is 20 years old. Playing on a team/line with far less offensive talent.

Ryan is proven, but slumping. Kane is unproven, but developing rapidly. At THIS point in time

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01-27-2012, 02:20 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umwoz View Post
The idea of Kane being equal in value to Ryan is simple.

They have the same amount of points, one has played less games and is 20 years old. Playing on a team/line with far less offensive talent.

Ryan is proven, but slumping. Kane is unproven, but developing rapidly. At THIS point in time
I love how you just throw everything Ryan has done in previous season out the window.

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01-27-2012, 02:22 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by umwoz View Post
Ryan is proven, but slumping. Kane is unproven, but developing rapidly. At THIS point in time
In other words, Kane had a stretch from late November to early December where he had 9 goals in 9 games.

Over his last 10 games, Kane has 0 goals, 2 assists and is -8.

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01-27-2012, 02:29 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I love how you just throw everything Ryan has done in previous season out the window.
Yes, by calling Ryan proven, I am in fact saying that he has done nothing before now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
In other words, Kane had a stretch from late November to early December where he had 9 goals in 9 games.

Over his last 10 games, Kane has 0 goals, 2 assists and is -8.
I'm not referencing specific stats in that post, simply because the comment was on development. Kane is improving, growing, developing. However you wish to phrase it, he is leaps and bounds a better player than last year. He hits harder, drives the net harder and has so much more confidence with the puck. He wants it on his stick and while streaky(like any 20 year old) has steadily improved similar to Ryan coming into last year. Stats come as a result of this improvement, and they have reflected both his improvement and his tendency to be streaky.


edit: It's also worth noting that the Jets have won 3 games in January, and Anaheim is heating up lately. Ryan's/Kane's production is obviously tied greatly to their team success whether it be as a result of or as a major contributing factor.(Impossible to tell either way)

On the point of a trade, if people see the value as similar why do the deal? I'm sure Anaheim is more comfortable with what they know they have in hand rather than banking on development of a very similar player whether that be better or worse.


Last edited by umwoz: 01-27-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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Old
01-27-2012, 02:42 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
What makes their value close? Ryan's a 3 x 30 goal scorer, and on pace for his 4th in just 4 full seasons. I know you're going to use the "kane's only 20 argument", however, until he actually lives up to the hype you can't just make him as valuable as a proven asset. There's a bit of difference between thinking someone might or should reach a certain level versus someone who is already at that level.
Believe it or not, when it comes to trade value, it goes past a player's ability. Contracts, age, how the players fit for the other teams, etc.

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01-27-2012, 03:01 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umwoz View Post
The idea of Kane being equal in value to Ryan is simple.

They have the same amount of points, one has played less games and is 20 years old. Playing on a team/line with far less offensive talent.

Ryan is proven, but slumping. Kane is unproven, but developing rapidly. At THIS point in time
I would argue that Ryan being in a slump, yet still on pace for another 30+ goal season, only shows how good he really is. I'm not saying Kane won't be a very good player, because I think he will be. However, it seems we just value 'potential' versus 'already proven', a little differently. Ryan's already proven he's a 30+ goal scorer, even in a down year as he's having this season. His ability to reach 40+ still seems very attainable, considering he's yet to get 1st unit PP time. His value is built around what he's already achieved along with the untapped potential. The guy is still just entering his prime, as well, as he's only 24 years old. I just don't see how potential, in this case, equals potential + accomplishments. It doesn't quite add up.

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Old
01-27-2012, 03:03 PM
  #40
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The Jets would need to add more, not the Ducks.

End of story.

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01-27-2012, 03:09 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
I would argue that Ryan being in a slump, yet still on pace for another 30+ goal season, only shows how good he really is. I'm not saying Kane won't be a very good player, because I think he will be. However, it seems we just value 'potential' versus 'already proven', a little differently. Ryan's already proven he's a 30+ goal scorer, even in a down year as he's having this season. His ability to reach 40+ still seems very attainable, considering he's yet to get 1st unit PP time. His value is built around what he's already achieved along with the untapped potential. The guy is still just entering his prime, as well, as he's only 24 years old. I just don't see how potential, in this case, equals potential + accomplishments. It doesn't quite add up.
I agree on mostly all points. While Ryan has proven himself more, I think Kane brings a lot physically that Ryan shies away from too often. Maybe that's an attribute I value too highly, but it's one that leads me to believe Kane will be a rare type of player, especially in today's game.

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01-27-2012, 03:12 PM
  #42
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.....Why are the Ducks adding

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Old
01-27-2012, 03:16 PM
  #43
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I would do Kane for Ryan straight up in a second Kane might develop into the better goals scorer and a little more physical but Ryan I think will always be the better player his vision and hockey sense being the reason for that and his physical skills are well above average as well


Last edited by veganhunter: 01-27-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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Old
01-27-2012, 03:17 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umwoz View Post
I agree on mostly all points. While Ryan has proven himself more, I think Kane brings a lot physically that Ryan shies away from too often. Maybe that's an attribute I value too highly, but it's one that leads me to believe Kane will be a rare type of player, especially in today's game.
Not hating on Kane at all, because I think he'll be a good player and all. But Ryan is plenty physical, he is one of the better hitters I've seen and plays a physical game. You can say he doesn't hang around the front of the net but he's just as effective doing things other than that.

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01-27-2012, 03:18 PM
  #45
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I don't know how anyone can say that Kane has more value? He has potential to be better then Ryan? This truly is HF where potential is everything.

No point in trading the two for each other though, unless Kane plays center. Anaheim only moves Ryan to fill other holes on the team.

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01-27-2012, 03:23 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Believe it or not, when it comes to trade value, it goes past a player's ability. Contracts, age, how the players fit for the other teams, etc.
Yes, I'm well aware of that...However, considering they're both very young and neither has entered their prime years yet, I don't think the whole age thing is really a factor in this case. Contracts, sure...but Kane's due for a new contract after this season, so that also may not be much of a factor as the difference in their salaries may not be very big. (Ryan's on a very good contract) And as far as how the player fits on another team, well of course that matters...but we're talking about general market value here. How a specific team values a player versus what his general market value is, are two different things.

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01-27-2012, 03:24 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by ShadowDuck View Post
Not hating on Kane at all, because I think he'll be a good player and all. But Ryan is plenty physical, he is one of the better hitters I've seen and plays a physical game. You can say he doesn't hang around the front of the net but he's just as effective doing things other than that.
It's not as much a bash on Ryan as a plus to Kane. Kane brings a blend of speed and hitting that not many players have. I don't think there's much opposition in me saying Kane is faster and more physical.

Based on previous seasons, obviously Ryan has produced more, but factoring in value you have to consider the potential loss as well. There simply aren't many players like Evander Kane, so in terms of the trade value the Winnipeg Jets hold for him, they would certainly be justified in being hesitant to move him for Ryan straight up.

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01-27-2012, 03:31 PM
  #48
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There aren't many players like Evander Kane, but there are less players like Bobby Ryan.

A proven talent > a potential talent

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01-27-2012, 03:34 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umwoz View Post
I agree on mostly all points. While Ryan has proven himself more, I think Kane brings a lot physically that Ryan shies away from too often. Maybe that's an attribute I value too highly, but it's one that leads me to believe Kane will be a rare type of player, especially in today's game.
I hope Kane turns out to be that special player...I think he has a ton of potential to be that player. And in this case, I think both teams choose to keep their own player. I'm not saying that is wrong at all. In fact, much like your stance with Kane, I wouldn't trade Fowler away for a more proven PMD if I think Fowler's ceiling might be higher. As for the whole thread...I was just surprised seeing a proposal for Ryan + for Kane. It made no sense to me.

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01-27-2012, 03:39 PM
  #50
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Kane for ryan is fair as is.

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