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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

So let's assume Crosby is done.

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Old
01-28-2012, 07:06 AM
  #26
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorscode View Post
Crosby has won the Hart, Art Ross, Rocket Richard, Lester B. Pearson and has scored over 30 points in a playoff run. There is no way he does not make it.
The Hart (2007), Art Ross (2007) and Lester B. Pearson (2007) were all one season.

Eric Lindros won the Hart and the Lester B. Pearson, and just like Crosby has ONE (1) 1st team all-star and ONE (1) 2nd team all-star season. He also won an Olympic gold. He led his team to the Stanley Cup Finals (but the Wings won). Like Crosby he was a premier force until concussion injuries....

So if you think Lindros is a slam dunk then it makes sense that you think Crosby is too. If one thinks Lindros is a marginal candidate for induction then it's no surprise that Crosby would be considered as such as well.

Moreover, Crosby is less deserving of induction than Forsberg by any and all criteria. That is clear.

It's sad that Crosby only had four full seasons and two half seasons, with just one of those as tops in the league, one of them tops in goals and two others great. Of course, if you watch TSN a lot, it seems like he has been the best player in the world every second of every season since his second year of juniors.

The fact is, if he's done for good, that history will remember him as a remarkable talent who could have been one of the greatest, was one of the best of the 2007-2010 period. Fifty years from now he would not be remembered in the same breath as the Jagrs, Yzermans and Selannes.

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01-28-2012, 07:18 AM
  #27
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The Cup, back to back amazing playoff performances, and Olympic winning goal elevate Crosby over Lindros. Not to mention he's not nearly as unlikeable as Eric

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01-28-2012, 07:49 AM
  #28
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Crosby has more playoff points than:

Selanne
Gainey
Bure
LaFontaine
Abel
Lindros
Fleury
Iginla
Kariya
Dionne
Bathgate

I think he'll have no trouble getting in.

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01-28-2012, 08:06 AM
  #29
Kane One
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
As of today, pretend he announced his retirement from the game.

Is he elected to the HHOF?

If he makes it, does he end up being the member with the lowest number of seasons played?

Where does he rank all-time considering what he has done in his career?
1. Yes.
2. I have no idea.
3. Probably top 125ish. People may say higher because of what he's done so quickly, but not me. I'm not going to give him credit for what he was on pace for over players who has actually done it.

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01-28-2012, 10:21 AM
  #30
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Crosby was better and more important than probably most of the guys in the Hall. He'd better make it.

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01-28-2012, 10:28 AM
  #31
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
I agree with this.

Regarding the previous post, if Crosby comes back and performs at average level, I think it should add. But I think people would tend to associate him more and more with his "average play". Perhaps a bit like when Gretzky gets questioned because he looked a bit weak - especially defensively - during his last years. Or when a guy like Fetisov gets associated with his NHL career rather than his prime.
Not a very good comp as Fetisov's peak and prime weren't in the NHL and his international tournaments where part of a 5 man unit and other factors. Fetisov's average play in the NHL during his age opens questions to how great his non peak NHL really was.

Here is a list of contemporary NHL Dman during Fetisov's NHL career all aged like Fetisov or older.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

His best seasons point wise are 37 and 38th. sure there are some superstars ahead of him but also some average guys and from all reports Fetisov's defensive game in the NHL wasn't exactly Norris caliber either.

At least in the hypothetical question Crosby would be in a consistent league and setting.

As to the OP defeintely a HHOF guy and top 100 of all time, just not entirely sure on the latter part.

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01-28-2012, 10:31 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorscode View Post
Crosby has already surpassed Forsberg. Crosby has him beat in everything including prime. Selanne? Crosby is a better player than Selznne and hss already had a much better prime. Crosby's first year he scored 102 points the youngest ever. His second deason he scored 120 points sweeping the Art Ross Hart and Pearson as a 19 year old. Third season he was injured but still led the playoffs in scoring. 4th season 100+ points and 30+ in the playoffs. 5th season 109 points and Rocket Richard award. 6th complete domination of NHL.
Interesting comp but Forsberg's playoff record still would trump Sid's if Sid was done, not to mention his international play as well.

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01-28-2012, 10:39 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
Another scenario:

Crosby comes back and remains healthy, but is never the player he was before the concussion(s?). Say he puts in 8-10 years of solid but unspectacular play maxing out at the 70-85 point level. No more scoring titles, no more leading the Pens to a cup (which isn't to say he may not win another with Malkin as the scoring leader). Does he still get in or do the extra years of "only" above average play hurt his chances?
70-85 points in todays game is much more than solid and in this hypothetical can we assume that his defensive level of play would stay the same. That makes for a top 10-15 forward still overall.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Last season 7 guys had 85 plus and 24 had 70 plus points.

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01-28-2012, 10:49 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorscode View Post
How does Forsbergs playoff record trump Sid's? Crosby's career high is 31 points while Forsbergs is 27 which Crosby had also scored prior to his 31 point run. Crosby also has another run of 19 points in just 13 games.
If one is simply talking about absolute peak sure but overall impact on a number of seasons it's Forsberg easily.

Same for regular season if one thinks long and hard about it.

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01-28-2012, 12:13 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Not a very good comp as Fetisov's peak and prime weren't in the NHL and his international tournaments where part of a 5 man unit and other factors. Fetisov's average play in the NHL during his age opens questions to how great his non peak NHL really was.
...
His best seasons point wise are 37 and 38th. sure there are some superstars ahead of him but also some average guys and from all reports Fetisov's defensive game in the NHL wasn't exactly Norris caliber either.
You seem like a good example of a person focusing on Fetisov in the NHL, rather than Fetisov before he went to the NHL. A prime Fetisov never played in the NHL, so many North Americans thus look at his NHL time and use that to determine how good he was.

Partly offtopic, but since you used stats, I will use stats that seem to give a completely different picture than you gave:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
Age 36 and above, Fetisov is 5th, 9th, 15th and 16th. No other player ends up four times among the 16th best (if I see right, Mark Howe at place 28 is the 2nd best in that category).
Age 37 and above, Fetisov is 2nd, 5th, 9th. No one else occurs twice on top-5, and no one else three times in top-12.
Age 38 and above, he's 2nd and 5th, being the only one with two top-5 places.
He needed some seasons, but then started to stand out.


Back to topic/Crosby, I tend to value peak slightly more than I've noticed some others do. For me, Crosby is a lock at HOF and surely a top-30 forward alltime. If doing a forward ranking for 1968 onwards, Crosby is top-10. Peak wise, he may be as high as top-5.

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01-28-2012, 12:27 PM
  #36
Kane One
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Crosby was better and more important than probably most of the guys in the Hall. He'd better make it.
Make a list and check before you say something this bold.

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01-28-2012, 12:28 PM
  #37
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Is Crosby in if he retires tomorrow? Definitely. I can understand the argument about Lindros, but then look at the respective places they occupy in the public mind. Crosby and Lindros share the fact that they have been among the more disliked players in their active times, but Crosby is also one of the more liked players. Crosby is the "golden boy", Lindros never had that. You remember Lindros's arrest, the whole refusing to play for Quebec thing, the overbearing parents, plenty of controversy and negativity. People dislike Crosby as a contrarian gesture simply because he is such a popular figure, people dislike Lindros for many other reasons.

The only scenario I see for Crosby not making the Hall is him playing again but retiring in 5-6 years - adding maybe 400 games but only 300 points - and maybe a scandal of some sorts. So he's at 800-850 games, 850-900 points, 300-350 goals which probably would still get him in given the "golden boy" status but then add a medium level damaging scandal and I think the case looks a lot more sober as in "hm Paul Kariya's stats look better than this"..

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01-28-2012, 12:29 PM
  #38
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If you go by the talent level he displayed in the NHL, he should absolutely be in the HHOF. The question: Are six years enough time to be inducted into the HHOF?

He has won everything there is to win (in NHL and International).

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01-28-2012, 01:05 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Make a list and check before you say something this bold.
You want him to list the 100-150 HHOFers he thinks Crosby is better than?

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01-28-2012, 02:31 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
Another scenario:

Crosby comes back and remains healthy, but is never the player he was before the concussion(s?). Say he puts in 8-10 years of solid but unspectacular play maxing out at the 70-85 point level. No more scoring titles, no more leading the Pens to a cup (which isn't to say he may not win another with Malkin as the scoring leader). Does he still get in or do the extra years of "only" above average play hurt his chances?
Let's say he comes back an effective player with a decent two-way game but nowhere near a HOF star, or even a potentially PPG star like you're saying, and his career arc looks roughly like this, playing until 35, which is young by today's standards for veteran stars.

81 39 64 102
79 36 84 120
53 24 48 72
77 33 70 103
81 51 58 109
41 32 34 66
8 2 10 12
70 25 40 65
70 25 40 65
75 20 40 60
75 20 40 60
75 20 40 60
75 20 40 60
75 20 40 60
75 20 40 60
75 15 40 55
75 15 40 55
75 15 30 45

1235 432 797 1229

Even with this kind of sad decline, he'd still get in! Those are HOF career numbers and he's got trophies surefire guys like Perreault, Yzerman, Francis, Hawerchuk, Mahovlich, Bucyk, Gilmour, Stastny, Delvecchio, countless other guys never won (nevermind countless borderline cases like Anderson, Nieuwendyk, Ciccarelli, Neely etc that can't begin to compete with is prime years), and his all-star count is better than a lot of them too. He captained a team to a Cup. His best playoff runs are fantastic. Essentially a PPG in an era where that means a lot, and his adjusted stats would be awesome.

What's the point of padding his resume and his stats, he's already in. Of course if he does overcome his injury and comes back to add to it, he'll likely do a lot better than my hypothetical, but that shows how pointless it would all be in deciding between yes or no.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 01-28-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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01-28-2012, 02:40 PM
  #41
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There is nothing that is going to keep Crosby out of the hall. Be it retiring tomorrow or playing 10 more years and putting up subpar numbers. He is a an icon of his generation, put up the numbers and has awards. He is Lindros with a Cup and without the off ice issues that surrounded him and caused him to become disliked. Him and Ovie are locks today, tomorrow or whenever it is time.

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01-28-2012, 03:17 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Make a list and check before you say something this bold.
Not too hard. Have you seen the list of who's in there? There must be 200+ players in the Hall of Fame. How many of them were in serious contention for Best Player in the World status for even 1 year? How many of them were the face of the league, and a perennial MVP threat?

Here are the inductions just since the year 2000 (excluding goaltenders, because it's just too hard to compare):

Nieuwendyk
Gilmour
M. Howe
Ciccarelli
Yzerman
Robitaille
Leetch
Hull
Larionov
Anderson
Francis
Stevens
MacInnis
Messier
Duff
Neely
Kharlamov
Murphy
Coffey
Bourque
Lafontaine
Langway
Gillies
Federko
Kurri
Hawerchuk
Gartner
Fetisov
Savard
Mullen

These were all star players, but they weren't all superstars. I mean, really think about it. Were Larry Murphy or Luc Robitaille really among the top handful of players in the game for any period of time? They'll have their big years, sure, but you're never going to take compare Larry Murphy to Ray Bourque, or Luc Robitaille to Mark Messier. Same for Lafontaine, Nieuwendyk, Hawerchuk, Mullen, and so on. Excellent players, but not generational talents. Nevermind the guys who are widely panned as weak selections: Gillies, Duff, Ciccarelli, Federko, and to some, Neely and Anderson.

How many guys on that list have 5 seasons that can compare to Crosby's 5 best? Bourque, Messier, Yzerman...Fetisov and Kharlamov are wildcards...etc

That's about par for the course for the Hall of Fame. Sure you have your all-time legends like Yzerman, Messier, and Bourque. But you also have Bernie Federko and Dino Ciccarelli. For every Jean Beliveau and Stan Mikita in there, you have a Bob Pulford and Bert Olmstead, etc.


Sidney Crosby, Eric Lindros, Pavel Bure...these are dominant players. Sure they had short careers. But they also defined their eras. People will still be talking about these guys in 30 years. Players like that need to be in the Hall of Fame (especially now that Neely is in).


Last edited by arrbez: 01-28-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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01-28-2012, 05:56 PM
  #43
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I'm not buying that Sid has already surpassed forsberg. In forsberg's hart season he got far more selke votes than sid's hart season. In 1998, Forsberg was 2nd in scoring while missing 10 games. In 2004, Forsberg had his 'half-season' dominance. Crosby's stats wouldnt look as pretty if he played when the league averaged 5.15-5.3 goals per game.

I like sid but Forsberg is still ahead.

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01-28-2012, 06:53 PM
  #44
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
You seem like a good example of a person focusing on Fetisov in the NHL, rather than Fetisov before he went to the NHL. A prime Fetisov never played in the NHL, so many North Americans thus look at his NHL time and use that to determine how good he was.
I don't use the NHL stats to determine how good Fetisov was but to not look at them and question if his peak in Russia is over rated wouldn't be very fair in any evaluation of his career.

That and his being part of a 5 man unit that played and trained a ton more than any contemporary NHL team at the time should lead us to ask these questions, to not do so would be incomplete IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
Partly offtopic, but since you used stats, I will use stats that seem to give a completely different picture than you gave:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
Age 36 and above, Fetisov is 5th, 9th, 15th and 16th. No other player ends up four times among the 16th best (if I see right, Mark Howe at place 28 is the 2nd best in that category).
Age 37 and above, Fetisov is 2nd, 5th, 9th. No one else occurs twice on top-5, and no one else three times in top-12.
Age 38 and above, he's 2nd and 5th, being the only one with two top-5 places.
He needed some seasons, but then started to stand out.


Back to topic/Crosby, I tend to value peak slightly more than I've noticed some others do. For me, Crosby is a lock at HOF and surely a top-30 forward alltime. If doing a forward ranking for 1968 onwards, Crosby is top-10. Peak wise, he may be as high as top-5.
Age 31 to 38 has a lot more relative and a bigger pool of player to evaluate and judge from but there is no doubt that Fetisov had a bit of a late surge with the Red /Wings late in his career and part of that is obviously due to the change of scenery from New Jersey.

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01-28-2012, 08:26 PM
  #45
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Well the HHOF is clearly not based on skill cause they have women in it. If it was based on skill he's defineteyl one of the better skilled players to ever play the game. It has to then go to career acomplishments. Stanley cup. Olympic gold. One Hart. One Art Ross.

I'd say its a close call.
Not really. In athleticism I can see what you mean but there's no reason why little Daisy can't gain the same skill as Crosby.

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01-28-2012, 08:36 PM
  #46
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The problem with Hockey is that too many players get into the Hall of Fame.

So he's won one Hart, one Ross, one Richard, one Stanley, one Gold Medal and one Conn Smythe (oops )..not impressed. He's only really played through 4 seasons and even though he's accomplished some good he hasn't done anything spectacular.

The Hall of Fame is "supposed" to be for players who were all-time greats for a considerable amount of time.

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01-28-2012, 09:26 PM
  #47
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How many hall of famers wish they had an Art Ross, Hart, Rocket Richard and Lester B. Pearson award? Thats an elite award case. Throw in his Elite playoff runs as well.
Ovechkin has more awards and accomplishments than Crosby but if he retired after this year he wouldn't go to the Hall of Fame. Crosby is HOF type of talent but he hasn't played long enough or accomplished enough to deserve to get in.

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01-28-2012, 10:05 PM
  #48
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Ovechkin has an Olympic Gold and Stanley Cup in which he was a key catalyst in victory?
Your argument is flawed.

I don't think Ovechkin is a better player than Crosby but he has accomplished more.

Neither of them deserve to get in the Hall of Fame as of now.

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01-28-2012, 10:50 PM
  #49
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Art Ross finishes, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th
Hart finishes, 1st, 3rd, 6th
Lester B. Pearson finishes, 1st, 2nd or 3rd
Richard finishes, 1st
All star team selections, 1st, 2nd, 5th.

Thats not a hall of famer?
No..pretty weak if you ask me.

If Crosby can have at least 3-4 more 90+ point seasons I'll give him consideration.

Getting in the Hall of Fame should be something that people consider an honor. If they just let every one in it won't mean anything.

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01-28-2012, 11:02 PM
  #50
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Your argument is flawed.

I don't think Ovechkin is a better player than Crosby but he has accomplished more.

Neither of them deserve to get in the Hall of Fame as of now.
Your Hall of fame has what 50 guys in it then? If so fine but if it's like 150 or so, can't agree with your position.

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