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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

So let's assume Crosby is done.

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01-28-2012, 11:25 PM
  #51
AmerigoCorleone
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Originally Posted by Warriorscode View Post
Look again I added somethings to the All star selections. How is that at all weak?
It's weak when you use it as an argument that he should get in the Hall of Fame. It's not enough.

We've only seen him play through 4 seasons. He hasn't accomplished enough for playing that little to deserve to get in the Hall of Fame.

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01-28-2012, 11:48 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by AmerigoCorleone View Post
It's weak when you use it as an argument that he should get in the Hall of Fame. It's not enough.

We've only seen him play through 4 seasons. He hasn't accomplished enough for playing that little to deserve to get in the Hall of Fame.
6 seasons and 420 games plus 62 playoff games with all that he has done in those games isn't enough?

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01-28-2012, 11:58 PM
  #53
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6 seasons and 420 games plus 62 playoff games with all that he has done in those games isn't enough?
No. If he can put up 3-4 more 90+ point seasons then I'll give him consideration.

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01-29-2012, 12:19 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by AmerigoCorleone View Post
No. If he can put up 3-4 more 90+ point seasons then I'll give him consideration.
so there really are only around 50 guys in your Hall right?

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01-29-2012, 01:12 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by AmerigoCorleone View Post
Ovechkin has more awards and accomplishments than Crosby but if he retired after this year he wouldn't go to the Hall of Fame. Crosby is HOF type of talent but he hasn't played long enough or accomplished enough to deserve to get in.
Actually, I think Ovechkin would get in if he retired tomorrow. I mean, honestly, how many better LWs have there been in the history of the game? He's got consecutive Harts and 5 First Team All-Stars in a row. He's certainly got the peak for the HHOF.

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01-29-2012, 04:05 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by AmerigoCorleone View Post
No..pretty weak if you ask me.
.
You might want to take a look at who is in the hall. Tons of them have much weaker lists of accolades.

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01-29-2012, 09:38 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofGrond View Post
Actually, I think Ovechkin would get in if he retired tomorrow. I mean, honestly, how many better LWs have there been in the history of the game? He's got consecutive Harts and 5 First Team All-Stars in a row. He's certainly got the peak for the HHOF.
Ovechkin and Crosby have both stamped their tickets in my book.


Players with more first-team selections at Left Wing than Ovechkin:

-Bobby Hull
-Ted Lindsay


Players with more Pearson/Lindsay awards than Ovechkin:

-Wayne Gretzky

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01-29-2012, 01:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
You might want to take a look at who is in the hall. Tons of them have much weaker lists of accolades.
His award case is nice unless you want to use it in an argument as to why he should get in the Hall of Fame since he hasn't accomplished enough on the ice to go along with it.

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01-29-2012, 02:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Warriorscode View Post
Two time Hart Finalist-( One time winner)
Two time Lester B. Pearson award finalist -( One time winner )
One time Art Ross winner- (Three times top 3)
One time Rocket Richard winner.
1st team all star- 2007
2nd team all star- 2010

Thats more than a lot of hall of famers. Thats just individual honors. He has been a key catalyst in winning a Stanley Cup and Olympic Gold Medal.
It doesn't impress me. Awards without context mean nothing.

I'm more inclined to choose a player (if I were a coach) with 8 90+ point seasons with no awards than a guy who only played through 4 seasons and 2 half seasons with all those accolades.

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01-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Warriorscode View Post
Crosby has 4 100+ point seasons in 6 years and if not for injuries would be 6 for 6.

Like you said Crosby has two seasons with honors. 2006-07 and 2009-2010 but even besides those two years he has been a dominant reg and playoff performer.
If he had 6 100+ point seasons and 2 more 90+ point seasons that would impress me and with his awards would definitely get him in for me. The problem is he only has 4 100+ point seasons. That's why for me he needs 3-4 more 90+ point seasons to deserve the Hall of Fame.

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01-29-2012, 03:26 PM
  #61
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The seasons in which he did not score 100 points he had 72 points in 53 games and 66 points in 41 games. Both more impressive then 90 point seasons.
82 games and 95 points>41 games and 66 points.

If Crosby finishes those seasons his resume is more impressive but he didn't. There are many cases of players being injured halfway through a great season. We can only give so much credit to those seasons.

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01-29-2012, 03:35 PM
  #62
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Yeah, let's not induct the defining player of a half decade.
Makes sense.

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01-29-2012, 03:39 PM
  #63
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Crosby and Ovechkin have been the best two players in this post-lockout era (with Malkin close to joining the duo). So, yeah, both have already earned their place in the Hall.

The thing is, if Crosby's career was actually done, we have nothing to compare him to.
1. He was better than all the players we think of when we consider the "what if?" scenario (i.e. Forsberg, Lindros, Bure, etc.)
2. His body of work is during a six-year period where he was not only the face of the NHL, but also one of its two best players.

There is no historical precedent, so right now, we are all just projecting our own biases as to whether he gets in. Personally, I would vote him in. For the record, I think Ovechkin gets in, even if he leaves the NHL tomorrow. 2 Hart trophies, regardless of the context, is an impressive feat the deserves induction.

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01-29-2012, 04:52 PM
  #64
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Absolutley not is 95 points in 82 games better than 66 in 41. The latter player would be on pace for 132 points. Crosby would without a doubt smash 95 points. As if Crosby is only going to score 29 more points in his final 41 games.
Any coach in this league would take a 95 points in 82 game season from their best player over a 66 points in 41 game season.

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01-29-2012, 07:10 PM
  #65
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Again I'm baffled at the reasoning going on here. If Crosby at this point is not inducted into the Hall of Fame it would be an absolute travesty. Disregarding all kinds of statistics and awards this is the bonafide superstar of the league for a period of at least 5 years. He has been injured for over a year and he is still the most talked about player. You can discuss his career value and his placement on some kind of overall ranking system, but how in the world is he not a Hall of Fame player?

I'd be tempted to say that based on his level of recognition, fame and importance to the game, he is more deserving than 80% of the players already in there.

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01-29-2012, 11:05 PM
  #66
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Crosby has already surpassed Forsberg. Crosby has him beat in everything including prime. Selanne? Crosby is a better player than Selznne and hss already had a much better prime. Crosby's first year he scored 102 points the youngest ever. His second deason he scored 120 points sweeping the Art Ross Hart and Pearson as a 19 year old. Third season he was injured but still led the playoffs in scoring. 4th season 100+ points and 30+ in the playoffs. 5th season 109 points and Rocket Richard award. 6th complete domination of NHL.
We can't go nuts here. Crosby's peak beat Forsberg's by a little bit but when it comes to longevity even Forsberg's injury prone career beats Sid. Three times Forsberg was a 1st team all-star at center. The meaty portion of his career was from 1995-'03. That's an 8 year prime that is already at least as good as Crosby's 2005-'12. Not to mention what Forsberg did outside of that. He won two Olympics golds, a Calder, had an 80 point season.

There are scarce times as well that Forsberg had a bad game in a big spot. No way Sid has accomplished in the playoffs what Forsberg has. Pete led the playoffs in points twice, and two OTHER years won the Cup. It pains me to say it, but there isn't a wise comparison for Crosby over Forsberg.............yet. Lindros? Yes for sure, because he isn't near Forsberg in an overall career. He was all but finished in 2000 and even those years were riddled with injuries. So you can definitely put Crosby at Lindros' level and since he is more likeable the off-ice issues won't effect his HHOF status.

But look...............we haven't seen the last of Sid. He's 24 years old and while it was announced he had two cracked vertabrae, that is certainly better news and an easier injury to heal from. He could come back this spring and win the Conn Smythe. Who knows?

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01-30-2012, 02:13 AM
  #67
AmerigoCorleone
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Disagree. I think Crosby's prime (which I don' think is even his prime since it was from 19-22) is better than Forsbergs. In a span of 4 seasons 2007-2010 Crosby accomplished everything in hockey and then some.

Two-time Hart Finalist (one time winner)
Two-time Lester B. Pearson Award Finalist (one time winner)- Forsberg never won a Pearson.
Art Ross Trophy (1st 2nd 3rd scoring finishes. )
Maurice Rocket Richard (Something Forsberg never sniffed)
1st team all star - 2007
2nd team all star- 2010
Stanley Cup
Olympic Gold medal
Led the playoffs in scoring with 27 points (matching Forsbergs career high at just 20 years old) in 07-08 and finished 2nd in playoff scoring with 31 points (higher than Forsbergs career high) in 08-09

Thats a lot for 4 seasons. Which are Crosby's so called prime seasons even though he was just hitting his prime in 10-11 at the ripe age of 23. Crosby's 10-11 season was a level I don't think Forsberg ever reached
Just to add to the argument.

Peter Forsberg:

Art Ross
Calder Memorial
Hart Memorial
Plus-Minus
NHL First-All Star (1998, 1999, 2003)
Stanley Cup (1996, 2001)
Olympic Gold Medal (1994, 2006)
World Championship Gold Medal (1992, 1998)

Regular season-

708 games, 249 goals, 636 assists, 885 points

Playoffs-

151 games, 64 goals, 107 assists, 171 points

International-

63 games, 20 goals, 37 assists, 57 points

Now that is a Hall of Fame resume.


Last edited by AmerigoCorleone: 01-30-2012 at 03:06 AM.
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01-30-2012, 02:28 AM
  #68
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Crosby has won everything there apart from the world championship and Calder and it took him 5 seasons.
Forsberg's two way game in his hart season was much better than crosby's in 07.

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01-30-2012, 02:37 AM
  #69
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Crosby has won everything there apart from the world championship and Calder and it took him 5 seasons.
He's won them but not in the same amount.

2 Stanley Cups>1 Stanley Cup
2 Olympic Gold Medals>1 Olympics Gold Medal
2 World Championship Gold Medals>0 Championship Gold Medals

4 20+ Plus-Minus, 1 30+ Plus Minus, 1 50+ Plus-Minus>1 20+ Plus-Minus
708 games, 1.25 ppg>420 games, 1.39 ppg
708 games, 0.90 apg>420 games, 0.87 apg


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01-30-2012, 03:04 AM
  #70
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Don't use the Plus Minus award or stat. It does not mean anything. Crosby has more major individual awards. More 100 point seasons. Crosby has a better career high in points in both the reg season and playoffs. Both are amazing passers. Both have 70+ assist seasons but Crosby is a much better goal scorer. Forsbergs career high in goals is 30. Crosby has a 51 goal Maurice Richard winning season and scored 32 goals in just 41 games in 10-11. Which is a pace of 64 goals.
So all in all there is nothing that Forsberg won in his entire career that Crosby had not accomplished in his first 5 seasons at the age of 22 years old.
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Originally Posted by AmerigoCorleone View Post
2 Stanley Cups>1 Stanley Cup
2 Olympic Gold Medals>1 Olympics Gold Medal
2 World Championship Gold Medals>0 Championship Gold Medals
Forsberg started his career at the age of 21. Technically he's played 15 seasons and Crosby has played 7.

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01-30-2012, 03:12 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by AmerigoCorleone View Post
Forsberg started his career at the age of 21. Technically he's played 15 seasons and Crosby has played 7.
Forsberg's career started earlier than that, but I understand you talk about NHL career.

Anyway, you have managed to post 30+ posts in about two days, basically all of them regarding Crosby. I think you have made your point. You think he's good, but overrated. You think he's had a good or even great career, but not as good as many other players and not as good as for example Forsberg.

Personally, I'm with the majority here, in that Crosby already has done enough to deserve to be in the HOF.

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01-30-2012, 03:19 AM
  #72
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Crosby has played 6 seasons. 8 games this year does not count as a season. Either way Crosby had everything Forsberg hss won his entire career in his first 5 seasons at the age of 22.
If Crosby has played 6 seasons then Forsberg has played 12.

Age doesn't matter. Forsberg started his career at the age of 21 and Crosby at the age of 18.

And Crosby doesn't have everything Forsberg has. I've already pointed it out twice.

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2 Stanley Cups>1 Stanley Cup
2 Olympic Gold Medals>1 Olympics Gold Medal
2 World Championship Gold Medals>0 Championship Gold Medals

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01-30-2012, 03:30 AM
  #73
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Forsberg's career started earlier than that, but I understand you talk about NHL career.

Anyway, you have managed to post 30+ posts in about two days, basically all of them regarding Crosby. I think you have made your point. You think he's good, but overrated. You think he's had a good or even great career, but not as good as many other players and not as good as for example Forsberg.

Personally, I'm with the majority here, in that Crosby already has done enough to deserve to be in the HOF.
Crosby is one of my top 5 favorite players right now. I think he's a very good player who was on the verge of putting up historical numbers (in this generation) until he got injured last year and then this year again.

If he can sustain his level of play for many more years I can see him as a top 10 player of all time. I just don't think he's done enough in his short career to deserve the Hall of Fame.

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01-30-2012, 03:34 AM
  #74
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Has all of those besides the world which is a joke of a tournament. Especially for a player like Sid who led the tournament in scoring as an 18 year old as well as named top forward.
So you're just going to overlook anything that doesn't favor Crosby?

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708 games, 1.25 ppg>420 games, 1.39 ppg
708 games, 0.90 apg>420 games, 0.87 apg

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01-30-2012, 03:48 AM
  #75
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What those numbers show is Forsberg has played longer nothing more. Crosby has him beat in Prime and Peak. The world championship is a joke. But fine I quess you can say he has that on Crosby. But Crosby has a Lester B. Pearson award and a Rocket Richard on Forsberg. The latter are much more impressive.
Actually those numbers I posted show Forberg's per game averages. His apg is better and his ppg is only 14 points down from Crosby despite the fact he's played 288 more games.

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