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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

So let's assume Crosby is done.

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Old
02-01-2012, 07:53 PM
  #101
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Funny, last I checked, Lindros has a Gold Medal, a Hart and a Lester Pearson as well.
Was even more dominating on the ice than Crosby and for longer.
And I haven't even gone into his junior stuff...

Look, lets just hope he makes it back so we don't have to engage in the fanboi crap.
This is not Gretzky we're talking about here, who was already a lock for the Hall after 5 years.

If his career is indeed over, there is an argument for him to be in the Hall but it's definitely not a lock.
Just like there is an argument for Lindros to be there.
Lindros was more physical, but that physicality was also the reason he wasn't playing full seasons. Crosby has Eric beat in peak offense and playoffs, he should and most likely will be ranked higher of the two.

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02-01-2012, 08:08 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by AmerigoCorleone View Post
82 games and 95 points>41 games and 66 points.

If Crosby finishes those seasons his resume is more impressive but he didn't. There are many cases of players being injured halfway through a great season. We can only give so much credit to those seasons.
Exactly.

People want to state that Crosby is the best player since Lemieux and say how if Crosby wasn't injured he would have more 100 Pts seasons well there is a certain player who played during Lemieux' time and still plays now who was/ is more dominant than Crosby and who accomplished more and who could have had many more 100 Pts seasons himself if not for injuries or the lockout shortened season of 1994-95.

Jagr did score 149 in 1995-96, 102 in 1997-98, 127 in 1998-99, 121 in 2000-01 and 123 in 2005-06.

That's 5 100 Pts seasons, not as impressive on the surface but then looks look at the games missed argument:

In 1993-94 he scored 99 in 80 games (10th in league scoring) which is a pace of 101 in 82 games.

In 1994-95 during the lockout shortened season, Jagr won the Art Ross with 70 Pts in 48 games, a pace of 120 Pts in 82 games.

In 1996-97 he scored 95 Pts in 63 games (5th in league scoring, 2nd in PPG) which is a pace of 124.

In 1999-00 he scored 96 Pts in 63 games (Art Ross) which is a pace of 125.

Jagr could have had easily 9 total 100 + Pts seasons including 8 in a row from 1993-94 to 2000-01.

If anyone deserves the title of "Best player since Lemieux" it's unquestionably Jagr.

Players get injured all the time, it's part of the game.

Crosby, for all this talk of him being the best since the lockout, many players have accomplished as much as him the same time frame.

Crosby has 1 Hart, 1 Leaster B. Pearson award, 1 Art Ross, and 1 Rocket trophy. 1 Stanley Cup for team accomplishments.

Ovechkin has 1 Calder, 2 Hart trophies, 3 Pearsons/ Lindsay, 1 Art Ross and 2 Rocket trophies.

Malkin has 1 Calder, 1 Art Ross, 1 Conn Smythe and was a Hart runner up twice and Art Ross runner up one more time.

Henrik Sedin has 1 Hart, 1 Art Ross.

Daniel Sedin has 1 Art Ross.

Thornton has 1 Hart and 1 Art Ross.

Does Crosby really stand out among this crowd? Not really and I haven't even mentioned Stamkos, Perry and Jagr (for his 2005-06 season).

If Crosby ever got in it would be for the sentimental, hype and "what could have been" reasons.

If Crosby were to come back and suddenly become a 60-75 Pts player for the next few years (all players eventually slow down in the mid to late 30's and players with head injuries usually slow down eve sooner) then Crosby could finish with about 1000-1100 Pts.

Kovalev and Alfredson territory and they are not sure shot Hall of Fame players.

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02-01-2012, 08:29 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Lindros was more physical, but that physicality was also the reason he wasn't playing full seasons. Crosby has Eric beat in peak offense and playoffs, he should and most likely will be ranked higher of the two.
Between 1993-94 and 1998-99 the only 2 offensive players who were unquestionably better than Lindros were Jagr and Lemieux.

Lindros was usually in the top 5-1 in PPG in those 6 seasons something that not even Crosby has accomplished.

Look at Crosby's PPG finishes.

2005-06: Crosby was 6th.

2006-07: Crosby was 1st

2007-08 : Crosby was 2nd

2008-09 : Crosby was 5th, 3rd among players who played 60 games or more.

2009-10 : Crosby was 4th.

2009-10 : Crosby was 1st.

I think Lindros had better top 5 PPG finishes than Lindros.

Lindros was 2nd in 1993-94

1st in 1994-95

3rd in 1995-96

3rd in 1996-97

3rd ( I could be wrong) in 1997-98

3rd in 1998-99.

That's 6 straight seasons.

The difference with Lindros is that he was up against the likes of Jagr, Gretzky, Fedorov, Lemieux, Selanne, Messier, Sakic, Forsberg, Karyia and Bure for scoring leads and scoring titles.

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02-01-2012, 08:46 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Between 1993-94 and 1998-99 the only 2 offensive players who were unquestionably better than Lindros were Jagr and Lemieux.

Lindros was usually in the top 5-1 in PPG in those 6 seasons something that not even Crosby has accomplished.

Look at Crosby's PPG finishes.

2005-06: Crosby was 6th.

2006-07: Crosby was 1st

2007-08 : Crosby was 2nd

2008-09 : Crosby was 5th, 3rd among players who played 60 games or more.

2009-10 : Crosby was 4th.

2009-10 : Crosby was 1st.

I think Lindros had better top 5 PPG finishes than Lindros.

Lindros was 2nd in 1993-94

1st in 1994-95

3rd in 1995-96

3rd in 1996-97

3rd ( I could be wrong) in 1997-98

3rd in 1998-99.

That's 6 straight seasons.

The difference with Lindros is that he was up against the likes of Jagr, Gretzky, Fedorov, Lemieux, Selanne, Messier, Sakic, Forsberg, Karyia and Bure for scoring leads and scoring titles.
You did a good job of lowering crosby's ppg finishes and boosting lindros's, so no point in fixing your mistakes, i'll o by hockey-reference in terms of ppg.
In 2007 and 2011, crosby had bigger gaps and seperated himself from the other forwards, lindros never did that and dont bring up competition, this era is just as good if not better, no one regards 1994-1999 as a golden era for forwards.

I noticed you left out the playoffs.

These are there actual ppg finishes:
Crosby: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th(basically tied with daniel), 6th.
Lindros: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 6th.

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02-01-2012, 09:07 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You did a good job of lowering crosby's ppg finishes and boosting lindros's, so no point in fixing your mistakes, i'll o by hockey-reference in terms of ppg.
In 2007 and 2011, crosby had bigger gaps and seperated himself from the other forwards, lindros never did that and dont bring up competition, this era is just as good if not better, no one regards 1994-1999 as a golden era for forwards.

I noticed you left out the playoffs.

These are there actual ppg finishes:
Crosby: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th(basically tied with daniel), 6th.
Lindros: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 6th.

Are you honestly trying to say that today's competition of the Sedin's, OV and Thornton is even close to on par with Lemieux, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, prime Selanne and Kariya of the mid 90's?

C'mon man.


Mario alone makes it impossible for anyone to get on the same playing field, let alone get any separation.
Crosby is not Jagr and he sure as hell aint Lemieux so he would of been in the exact same spot as Lindros. Getting some advantage over the rest of the pack but still behind Jagr and far behind Lemieux.


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02-01-2012, 11:38 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Are you honestly trying to say that today's competition of the Sedin's, OV and Thornton is even close to on par with Lemieux, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, prime Selanne and Kariya of the mid 90's?

C'mon man.


Mario alone makes it impossible for anyone to get on the same playing field, let alone get any separation.
Crosby is not Jagr and he sure as hell aint Lemieux so he would of been in the exact same spot as Lindros. Getting some advantage over the rest of the pack but still behind Jagr and far behind Lemieux.
You are making it sound like all of those players had thier prime each year during lindros's 6 year stretch, thats not the case at all. Sakic usually had his down years during that frame, kariya/selanne are the sedins/stamkos of this generation. Prime Malkin and Prime Ovechkin and heck even joe thornton for that matter are as good offensively as anyone lindros faced except for a prime mario, whether you want to admit it or not. I saw that whole era growing up so "the you didnt see them play" doesnt apply here. The fact that selanne nearly has the same ppg as lindros from 94-99 should indicate that this is sid all the way. Sakic's peak is 2000-2004, so I dont even know why he was mentioned. Malkin, OVY, Thornton, Iginla, Sedins, Stamkos, Datsyuk, Kovy are every bit as good as the group you mentioned. The big difference is that they peaked during sid's years. Forsberg had his best years when lindros was irrelevant, sakic had his best year in 2001, Bure had his best year in 2000. Kariya never even finished 1st or 2nd in scoring.

Mario wasnt around in 1994, 1995, 1998-2002, so those excuses are not going to cover his behind. Heck Lindros's main claim to fame is "his paces" rather than playing full seasons, and crosby even has him beat in that. In sid's hart year there was a bigger gap between him and thornton in ppg, then Lindros and alexie freakin zhamnov in eric's hart year, and crosby's season was way longer. Then you factor in the playoffs and I dont see how lindros has any case at all, sid surpassed him, case closed.

Crosby in 2011 reached an offensive peak that lindros never hit, this isnt a comparison to Jagr(who actually played full seasons). This is a direct comparison to Eric 'i miss 20-30 games per year' Lindros. Last year crosby was head and shoulders above everyone else, even his 2007 season beats eric's peak.


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02-02-2012, 12:26 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Ovechkin seems destined to go towards the path of consistent 60-70 Pts seasons from now on.

Not a sure shot Hall of Fame player right now.
During Ovechkin's 6 seasons in the NHL he has scored: 106, 92, 112, 110, 109, 85. This season he is on pace for roughly 70 points. I could just as well say that this year is an anomaly and Ovechkin "seems destined" to score consistent 100 point seasons for 5 years from now. After all that's what the mean value and median tell us. Projection is always dangerous in such an explosive sport as hockey.

Oh and for the record I think his Hall of Fame record should be at or arguably above that of Crosby's. Dead certain to get in and possibly during his first year of eligibility. You can't argue away double Hart Trophies and quintuple 1st all-star team selections. His accomplishments, on an individual level, already surpasses at least 80% of the Hall of Fame. To top it all off, he along with Sidney, has been the talk of the league for the last 6 years. That accounts for a lot in my book.

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02-02-2012, 12:41 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You are making it sound like all of those players had thier prime each year during lindros's 6 year stretch, thats not the case at all. Sakic usually had his down years during that frame, kariya/selanne are the sedins/stamkos of this generation. Prime Malkin and Prime Ovechkin and heck even joe thornton for that matter are as good offensively as anyone lindros faced except for a prime mario, whether you want to admit it or not. I saw that whole era growing up so "the you didnt see them play" doesnt apply here. The fact that selanne nearly has the same ppg as lindros from 94-99 should indicate that this is sid all the way. Sakic's peak is 2000-2004, so I dont even know why he was mentioned. Malkin, OVY, Thornton, Iginla, Sedins, Stamkos, Datsyuk, Kovy are every bit as good as the group you mentioned. The big difference is that they peaked during sid's years. Forsberg had his best years when lindros was irrelevant, sakic had his best year in 2001, Bure had his best year in 2000. Kariya never even finished 1st or 2nd in scoring.

Mario wasnt around in 1994, 1995, 1998-2002, so those excuses are not going to cover his behind. Heck Lindros's main claim to fame is "his paces" rather than playing full seasons, and crosby even has him beat in that. In sid's hart year there was a bigger gap between him and thornton in ppg, then Lindros and alexie freakin zhamnov in eric's hart year, and crosby's season was way longer. Then you factor in the playoffs and I dont see how lindros has any case at all, sid surpassed him, case closed.

Crosby in 2011 reached an offensive peak that lindros never hit, this isnt a comparison to Jagr(who actually played full seasons). This is a direct comparison to Eric 'i miss 20-30 games per year' Lindros. Last year crosby was head and shoulders above everyone else, even his 2007 season beats eric's peak.
I do like how you left Jagr out of your list for the mid 90's, that was slick
Pretty important omission, don't ya think.

And are you honestly going to say that Selanne's peak was in the mid 2000's compared to the mid-late 90's...that's a joke.


Look, the whole point of this thread is if Sid was good enough in the short time he has played, to make the Hall.

He is not Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux and you can barely make an argument that he was better than Lindros.
So what does that leave you with...a big fat maybe is what.


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02-02-2012, 02:14 AM
  #109
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I do like how you left Jagr out of your list for the mid 90's, that was slick
Pretty important omission, don't ya think.

And are you honestly going to say that Selanne's peak was in the mid 2000's compared to the mid-late 90's...that's a joke.


Look, the whole point of this thread is if Sid was good enough in the short time he has played, to make the Hall.

He is not Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux and you can barely make an argument that he was better than Lindros.
So what does that leave you with...a big fat maybe is what.
I left jagr out, just like I left sid out for that group. In the long run people are going to talk about sid to see if he ends up as great as jagr, lol eric lindros is merely an after thought by now. I judge lindros by what he accomplished, not what he was on pace for. If he is going to get bonus points for missing games, same thing has to apply for crosby in 2008 and 2011, otherwise the argument has no merit. Prime Ovechkin was every bit as good as jagr, so leaving jagr out doesnt make a difference. Ovy peaked higher offensively than selanne, kariya, bure, sakic, lindros, or any other non-jagr player from that era.

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02-02-2012, 04:46 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I left jagr out, just like I left sid out for that group. In the long run people are going to talk about sid to see if he ends up as great as jagr, lol eric lindros is merely an after thought by now. I judge lindros by what he accomplished, not what he was on pace for. If he is going to get bonus points for missing games, same thing has to apply for crosby in 2008 and 2011, otherwise the argument has no merit. Prime Ovechkin was every bit as good as jagr, so leaving jagr out doesnt make a difference. Ovy peaked higher offensively than selanne, kariya, bure, sakic, lindros, or any other non-jagr player from that era.
Ok, now you're saying OV was as good as Jagr....that's enough silly talk for me today.
Someone else can deal with you.

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02-02-2012, 04:28 PM
  #111
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Ok, now you're saying OV was as good as Jagr....that's enough silly talk for me today.
Someone else can deal with you.
Ovy easily peaked as high as jagr did, this just shows how biased you are.

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02-02-2012, 04:42 PM
  #112
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Ovy easily peaked as high as jagr did, this just shows how biased you are.
Ok, I don't agree with this at all. Jagr murders Ovechkin in adjusted points and does so for a longer stretch.

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02-02-2012, 04:48 PM
  #113
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Ovie has not peaked as high as Jagr, unless you are talking goals, or insane offensive zone bodychecks. If we are talking points, then no, he hasn't. Jagr was in the 120's in healthy seasons, and at a similar pace in unhealthy seasons for a 5 year span - in a lower scoring era. It would suggest, and numbers sites would back it up, that he was a high 130's to low 140's guy in a peak year by today's standards. You may not like adjusted numbers, but then please just refer to his 120 point season, no longer in his peak at all, once the rules changed. Ovechkin hasn't hit that number IN HIS PEAK.

I love guys that hit, play both ends, and play with a screw loose. Iginla, Ovie, Forsberg, Datsyuk, Lindros, those are my kinda guys... but after Gretzky and Lemieux, Jagr is a half step ahead of the rest of the field, at least in terms of offensive production.

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02-02-2012, 04:48 PM
  #114
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Jagr was a far more intelligent player than Ovechkin.Ovechkin was a great goal scorer and he could throw a hit here and there , but Jagr scored 30 goals 15 consecutive season so he wasn't bad at all at goal scoring , but he was certainly a tremendously superior playmaker , puck/shift controller than Ovechkin.Jagr also ridiculed his competition more than Ovechkin.Jagr's peak was superior to Ovechkin there is no doubt about it in my mind.

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02-02-2012, 04:51 PM
  #115
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he hits a lot, and hard


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02-02-2012, 05:16 PM
  #116
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OK, we can all stop this now, since Crosby is not done. It's just a soft tissue injury!

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02-02-2012, 05:48 PM
  #117
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Ovie has not peaked as high as Jagr, unless you are talking goals, or insane offensive zone bodychecks. If we are talking points, then no, he hasn't. Jagr was in the 120's in healthy seasons, and at a similar pace in unhealthy seasons for a 5 year span - in a lower scoring era. It would suggest, and numbers sites would back it up, that he was a high 130's to low 140's guy in a peak year by today's standards. You may not like adjusted numbers, but then please just refer to his 120 point season, no longer in his peak at all, once the rules changed. Ovechkin hasn't hit that number IN HIS PEAK.

I love guys that hit, play both ends, and play with a screw loose. Iginla, Ovie, Forsberg, Datsyuk, Lindros, those are my kinda guys... but after Gretzky and Lemieux, Jagr is a half step ahead of the rest of the field, at least in terms of offensive production.
Sure Ovechkin and Lindros hit but they are/ were not two-way players. Ovechkin has always been considered a lazy defensive player and Lindros was mean and nasty but he didn't expand a lot of energy in the defensive end.

The only edge that Ovechkin has on Jagr is hitting. Jagr is an equal goalscorer (Ovechkin might have peaked a bit more) but Jagr was a top 3 goal scorer 6 times and although he never led the league in goals, he was runner up 3 times (1994-95, 1995-96 and 2005-06).

Ovechkin has only been top 3 or better 4 times compared to 6 times for Jagr. Sure the argument can be made that Ovechkin has lots of time to catch up but his 50 goals days seem to be behind him.

Jagr is/ was a far better playmaker. He controls the game better and was a better all-around offensive player.

It's not really close in mind. Ovechkin could have made it interesting and inched closer but his last 2 season (including this one) has made him fall back quite a bit.

Looking at them now, Ovechkin and Crosby are both Hallof Fame worthy but anything can happen.

If they become consistent good to mediocre players from here on in then with every passing season, their Hall of Fame worthiness lessens.

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02-02-2012, 06:11 PM
  #118
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Hey Jags, you've just reiterated ALL of my points, but picked out one little detail to go after. 2 out of 3 ain't bad, is my response to your gripes about Ovie and Eric. Pavel Datsyuk doesn't really play 'with a screw loose' either... but he also meets 2 of my half-assed criteria. Jagr doesn't fully meet any, which is why he's not my favorite guy... which should help drive home my actual point - THAT HE IS OFFENSIVELY SUPERIOR TO OVECHKIN... and everyone else not wearing 66 or 99.

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02-02-2012, 06:51 PM
  #119
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Ovy easily peaked as high as jagr did, this just shows how biased you are.
Geez, I don't know how I'd argue that if I were Ovechkin's lawyer. We're talking Jaromir Jagr here. This guy won 5 scoring titles - 4 in a row. Ovechkin won just one and was 2nd and 3rd another time. It is too early to see if he will ever get back to that level again, but if he doesn't then there is no way you can say Ovechkin peaked as high as Jagr.

I would like to isolate two important seasons in Jagr's career. 1999 and 2000. There is one thing he had that Ovechkin didn't have and that was seperation from the rest of the pack. Jagr won a scoring title by 20 points in 1999. He won a scoring title playing 63 games in 2000. He was far and away the best player in the world. It was painfully obvious.

You could even say in 1998 he was clearly the best because he won another Hart and outscored the next best forward - Forsberg - by 11 points. That is definitely the worst of those three seasons. This was 1997-'98 and everyone was wondering if it was going to be Lindros, Kariya or Jagr who would grab the reigns as the best player in the game. Well, the winner was Jagr.

We just never saw that kind of dominance league wide from Ovechkin, or for that matter, Crosby. We MIGHT have seen it in 2011 if he had kept his head up, but alas, we didn't. There were tons of threads done before his injury from Steckel about whether or not Crosby's season was going to be as good as Jagr's best (1999). I remember distinctively saying he is in good shape but I would wait and find out. We never did. Therefore Ovechkin never peaked at Jagr's level and Crosby - so far - hasn't either. Heck to be honest, the season Malkin is having right now might end up being the best season to compare to Jagr and even he is far off.

But can you compare Crosby to Lindros career wise by now? Yes. Lindros was done by 2000. He never did anything noteworthy after that. So you are basically comparing Lindros 1992-'00 to Crosby 2005-'12 and I would have a hard time putting Lindros ahead of him.

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02-02-2012, 09:33 PM
  #120
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Geez, I don't know how I'd argue that if I were Ovechkin's lawyer. We're talking Jaromir Jagr here. This guy won 5 scoring titles - 4 in a row. Ovechkin won just one and was 2nd and 3rd another time. It is too early to see if he will ever get back to that level again, but if he doesn't then there is no way you can say Ovechkin peaked as high as Jagr.

I would like to isolate two important seasons in Jagr's career. 1999 and 2000. There is one thing he had that Ovechkin didn't have and that was seperation from the rest of the pack. Jagr won a scoring title by 20 points in 1999. He won a scoring title playing 63 games in 2000. He was far and away the best player in the world. It was painfully obvious.

You could even say in 1998 he was clearly the best because he won another Hart and outscored the next best forward - Forsberg - by 11 points. That is definitely the worst of those three seasons. This was 1997-'98 and everyone was wondering if it was going to be Lindros, Kariya or Jagr who would grab the reigns as the best player in the game. Well, the winner was Jagr.

We just never saw that kind of dominance league wide from Ovechkin, or for that matter, Crosby. We MIGHT have seen it in 2011 if he had kept his head up, but alas, we didn't. There were tons of threads done before his injury from Steckel about whether or not Crosby's season was going to be as good as Jagr's best (1999). I remember distinctively saying he is in good shape but I would wait and find out. We never did. Therefore Ovechkin never peaked at Jagr's level and Crosby - so far - hasn't either. Heck to be honest, the season Malkin is having right now might end up being the best season to compare to Jagr and even he is far off.

But can you compare Crosby to Lindros career wise by now? Yes. Lindros was done by 2000. He never did anything noteworthy after that. So you are basically comparing Lindros 1992-'00 to Crosby 2005-'12 and I would have a hard time putting Lindros ahead of him.
I think its closer than you think and I am a huge Jagr mark. Jagr's 1996 and 2001 seasons were inflated a bit by the circumstances. So when comparing jagr to ovy I prefer to use jagr's 1995, 1998-2000 and 2006 seasons. Ovechkin scored 65 goals in 2008, won the hart in 2009 and scored at a ridiculous pace in 2010, he definetly has outpeaked sakic and yzerman, with jagr its debatable.

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02-02-2012, 11:46 PM
  #121
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Exactly.

People want to state that Crosby is the best player since Lemieux and say how if Crosby wasn't injured he would have more 100 Pts seasons well there is a certain player who played during Lemieux' time and still plays now who was/ is more dominant than Crosby and who accomplished more and who could have had many more 100 Pts seasons himself if not for injuries or the lockout shortened season of 1994-95.

Jagr did score 149 in 1995-96, 102 in 1997-98, 127 in 1998-99, 121 in 2000-01 and 123 in 2005-06.

That's 5 100 Pts seasons, not as impressive on the surface but then looks look at the games missed argument:

In 1993-94 he scored 99 in 80 games (10th in league scoring) which is a pace of 101 in 82 games.

In 1994-95 during the lockout shortened season, Jagr won the Art Ross with 70 Pts in 48 games, a pace of 120 Pts in 82 games.

In 1996-97 he scored 95 Pts in 63 games (5th in league scoring, 2nd in PPG) which is a pace of 124.

In 1999-00 he scored 96 Pts in 63 games (Art Ross) which is a pace of 125.

Jagr could have had easily 9 total 100 + Pts seasons including 8 in a row from 1993-94 to 2000-01.

If anyone deserves the title of "Best player since Lemieux" it's unquestionably Jagr.

Players get injured all the time, it's part of the game.

Crosby, for all this talk of him being the best since the lockout, many players have accomplished as much as him the same time frame.

Crosby has 1 Hart, 1 Leaster B. Pearson award, 1 Art Ross, and 1 Rocket trophy. 1 Stanley Cup for team accomplishments.

Ovechkin has 1 Calder, 2 Hart trophies, 3 Pearsons/ Lindsay, 1 Art Ross and 2 Rocket trophies.

Malkin has 1 Calder, 1 Art Ross, 1 Conn Smythe and was a Hart runner up twice and Art Ross runner up one more time.

Henrik Sedin has 1 Hart, 1 Art Ross.

Daniel Sedin has 1 Art Ross.

Thornton has 1 Hart and 1 Art Ross.

Does Crosby really stand out among this crowd? Not really and I haven't even mentioned Stamkos, Perry and Jagr (for his 2005-06 season).

If Crosby ever got in it would be for the sentimental, hype and "what could have been" reasons.

If Crosby were to come back and suddenly become a 60-75 Pts player for the next few years (all players eventually slow down in the mid to late 30's and players with head injuries usually slow down eve sooner) then Crosby could finish with about 1000-1100 Pts.

Kovalev and Alfredson territory and they are not sure shot Hall of Fame players.
Funny but of all the guys you mentioned only 1 other guy Malkin has the SC and Sid was captain of that team and kind of important to the team that year, heck every year in the playoffs. Most seasons Sid has Hank's Hart as well for goal scoring and the western snub perception.

There was a huge push by the media to not overlook western teams, especially Vancouver in the awards and I think there was a bit of a backlash. most of us looking back at that season can make a better argument for Sid getting that hart than Hank.

Nice that you managed to slip Jagr into a thread, what a rarity eh?

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02-03-2012, 02:49 AM
  #122
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Here's to add something.

If Crosby is done... does he go down as a disappointment like Lindros?

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02-03-2012, 01:16 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I think its closer than you think and I am a huge Jagr mark. Jagr's 1996 and 2001 seasons were inflated a bit by the circumstances. So when comparing jagr to ovy I prefer to use jagr's 1995, 1998-2000 and 2006 seasons. Ovechkin scored 65 goals in 2008, won the hart in 2009 and scored at a ridiculous pace in 2010, he definetly has outpeaked sakic and yzerman, with jagr its debatable.
Why were they inflated? Is it because Lemieux was there? Regardless of Lemieux or not, Jagr still scored 149 Pts (2nd in league scoring, 29 ahead of third place Sakic) and 121 Pts in 2001 to win the Art Ross.

Let us list the top 10 offensive seasons (points) since 1995.

1. 161 Pts, Lemieux 1995-96
2. 149 Pts, Jagr 1995-96
3. 127 Pts, Jagr 1998-99
4. 125 Pts, Thornton 2005-06
5. 123 Pts, Jagr 2005-066. 122 Pts, Lemieux 1996-97
7. 121 Pts, Jagr 2000-018. 120 Pts, Crosby 2006-07
9. 120 Pts, Sakic 1995-96
10. 118 Pts, Sakic 2000-01


Ovechkin doesn't even show up on the top 10 list. In fact Thornton (114 in 2006-07) and Malkin (113 in 2008-09) all show up ahead of Ovechkin.

Over the last 15-16 years there have been 13 better offensive seasons than Ovechkin's best in 2007-08.

On this list, Sakic shows up twice while Ovechkin doesn't show up once. You tell me who peaked at a higher level.

Sakic would have been battling for the Art Ross (if he was in his prime) in today's NHL.

The reason he never won an Art Ross is because he was up against Lemieux and Jagr and to a lesser extent, Selanne, Karyia, Forsberg and Lindros.

In my mind, Crosby and Ovechkin (peaked) at Sakic and Yzerman's levels.

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02-03-2012, 01:27 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Why were they inflated? Is it because Lemieux was there? Regardless of Lemieux or not, Jagr still scored 149 Pts (2nd in league scoring, 29 ahead of third place Sakic) and 121 Pts in 2001 to win the Art Ross.

Let us list the top 10 offensive seasons (points) since 1995.

1. 161 Pts, Lemieux 1995-96
2. 149 Pts, Jagr 1995-96
3. 127 Pts, Jagr 1998-99
4. 125 Pts, Thornton 2005-06
5. 123 Pts, Jagr 2005-066. 122 Pts, Lemieux 1996-97
7. 121 Pts, Jagr 2000-018. 120 Pts, Crosby 2006-07
9. 120 Pts, Sakic 1995-96
10. 118 Pts, Sakic 2000-01


Ovechkin doesn't even show up on the top 10 list. In fact Thornton (114 in 2006-07) and Malkin (113 in 2008-09) all show up ahead of Ovechkin.

Over the last 15-16 years there have been 13 better offensive seasons than Ovechkin's best in 2007-08.

On this list, Sakic shows up twice while Ovechkin doesn't show up once. You tell me who peaked at a higher level.

Sakic would have been battling for the Art Ross (if he was in his prime) in today's NHL.

The reason he never won an Art Ross is because he was up against Lemieux and Jagr and to a lesser extent, Selanne, Karyia, Forsberg and Lindros.

In my mind, Crosby and Ovechkin (peaked) at Sakic and Yzerman's levels.
Dude you are so biased its not even funny. In 2001 jagr was scoring at a 96-100 point pace until lemieux decided to show up and pad jagr's totals. In 1996 Jagr scored more than half of his points with lemieux, i saw the box scores for that season, jagr scored 73 points that year without lemieux. 2001 was sakic's season and he shattered jagr in hart voting that year.

Why the heck are you comparing seasons from 1996 and 2006 with 2008-2010 when you damn well know they were higher in scoring, you enjoy trolling dont you.

You always pull this off, whenever there is a player that is somehow a threat to jagr, like lidstrom, ovy, crosby. You try your best to diminish thier accomplishments and prop up the competition of jagr like it was atg comp. Nobody here regards bure, selanne and kariya on the same level as crosby, ovechkin and malkin. Lindros never even played above 75 games in a season, so he was basically irrelevant in terms of awards especially when he was injured for large chunks of seasons. Forsberg didnt truly hit his peak until 2002-2004, before that he was a pavel bure caliber offensive player.

The only season jagr has thats better than ovy's 65 goal season is his 1999 season, if you disagree then make a poll comparing the rest of his seasons to ovy's 3 year peak.

Sakic's hart voting: 1st
Ovechkin: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 5th


Last edited by ushvinder: 02-03-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old
02-03-2012, 01:28 PM
  #125
livewell68
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Funny but of all the guys you mentioned only 1 other guy Malkin has the SC and Sid was captain of that team and kind of important to the team that year, heck every year in the playoffs. Most seasons Sid has Hank's Hart as well for goal scoring and the western snub perception.

There was a huge push by the media to not overlook western teams, especially Vancouver in the awards and I think there was a bit of a backlash. most of us looking back at that season can make a better argument for Sid getting that hart than Hank.

Nice that you managed to slip Jagr into a thread, what a rarity eh?
Say what you want but Henrik Sedin deserved the Hart, fair and square. He played in the harder conference that season and was more instrumental to the team's success.

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