HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Would Jeff Carter be a good trade?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-29-2012, 09:45 AM
  #26
Bobby12345
Registered User
 
Bobby12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 214
vCash: 500
I appreciate Carter's skill but not his attitude.

I can understand he was unhappy of going from Philly to Columbus but the way he handled it showed lack of character and selfishness which are two things we don't need in Detroit.

Bobby12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2012, 10:32 AM
  #27
Winger98
Moderator
powers combined
 
Winger98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 14,626
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Winger98
Quote:
Originally Posted by flapshots View Post
I appreciate Carter's skill but not his attitude.

I can understand he was unhappy of going from Philly to Columbus but the way he handled it showed lack of character and selfishness which are two things we don't need in Detroit.
I don't think it was just going to a worse team that ticked Carter off, but that he had just signed a "lifetime" deal expecting to stay with Philly for the bulk of his career. Philly even included an NTC that kicks in, I think, next year - so they also dealt him within the small window where they could do it without his involvement.

I think if CBus had gotten off to a better start this year, instead of being one of the worst teams in the league, this trade talk wouldn't be surfacing and Carter would be seen as a cornerstone for the BJs. As it is, I think there's a fair chance Columbus just cleans house, retools a bit, and will end up being fine going forward.

__________________
RIP David
Winger98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 01:54 AM
  #28
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
I think it was more a function of a GM actually PROACTIVELY addressing a flaw on his team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
There were also rumors about how bad both Carter and Mike Richards were in the locker room which is a big part of the reason why they were traded this summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
The Flyers traded Carter because of locker room issues. Same goes for Richards. I'm almost positive those were at the request of ownership.
Carter and Richards were traded because:

1) Briere and Giroux were the team's best forwards, and the team had other solid forwards.
2) The ownership basically DEMANDED Bryzgalov.
3) Pronger did not like Richards, and from things I've read the room was split from the moment Pronger arrived. Richards (and his best friend Carter) each have more trade value than Pronger at this point, so it made sense - especially given team strengths and contracts - to deal the forwards.

Quote:
Never happen with Holland in charge.
Carter has a rep of attitude issues. Holland doesn't bring in, or keep, guys like that. See: Sean Avery.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:05 AM
  #29
Eaglepride*
#5 in Wotan we trust
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Promiseland Walhalla
Posts: 3,502
vCash: 500
In a non cap world it might be worth it but right now hell no. There are some question marks involved does he want to play for the Wings, soon to be injury prone and its not like he is using his size at all.

Additionally his albatross contract is making the whole thing a nono.

Eaglepride* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:17 AM
  #30
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 22,993
vCash: 500
I would gladly accept Carter, big right handed shot and a pure goal scorer. His cap hit is actually pretty good considering what he is when he is on top of his game. His value might never be lower than this again until the very last years of his deal. Still don't think Columbus would ever offer him up in division.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:21 AM
  #31
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 6,500
vCash: 500
Carter the player I would like to have. The locker room and partying rumors is what scares me off. The contract is long, but the cap hit is not the end of the world. Honestly the situation the Jackets are in I don't think trading him in the division would even be a big deal. Not like they are going to be contenders anytime soon and it will come back to bite them in the ass.

Syckle78 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:32 AM
  #32
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 22,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Carter the player I would like to have. The locker room and partying rumors is what scares me off. The contract is long, but the cap hit is not the end of the world. Honestly the situation the Jackets are in I don't think trading him in the division would even be a big deal. Not like they are going to be contenders anytime soon and it will come back to bite them in the ass.
I think Columbus should take the best possible offer. But, I think if there is one team that they would give great pause to sending him to it would be the Wings. They want to believe they are rivals with the Wings and if he turns it around in Detroit which I would argue he would do, that fan-base would not let ownership forget it.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:34 AM
  #33
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 6,500
vCash: 500
Yea, I guess from a public relations stand point it could be tricky. It is pretty cute though that they consider us rivals.

Syckle78 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 07:40 AM
  #34
WingShadowZ
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
Isn't he that big power forward, with the right handed shot, we would really like to have? I still think the Blue Jackets should keep him though. It's really too bad for that team. In all honesty, I was kinda hoping they'd make an improvement this season. Nope, not trolling. (lol)

WingShadowZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 08:37 AM
  #35
Winger98
Moderator
powers combined
 
Winger98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 14,626
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Winger98
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingShadowZ View Post
Isn't he that big power forward, with the right handed shot, we would really like to have? I still think the Blue Jackets should keep him though. It's really too bad for that team. In all honesty, I was kinda hoping they'd make an improvement this season. Nope, not trolling. (lol)
His mediocre showing in CBus is off-putting, though, and I can't imagine the asking price would be cheap. I'm with you, though, in thinking they should just hang onto him. They've been bit by injuries this season (Huselius was/is out, Carter's out, Wisniewski's out), and then some other guys just fell through the floor (Umberger,Vermette, Brassard).

With all of the Sabre trade talk, they should go after Roy. He could be the #1 center they've lacked, and allow them to comfortably move Carter to the second line to give them some goal scoring depth. Also, get a decent coach.

Winger98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 09:29 AM
  #36
akustyk
Registered User
 
akustyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Dutchland
Country: Poland
Posts: 377
vCash: 500
mega long contract for an unproven (in Winged Wheel) player?

dunno... he'd have to be a 1st draft pick (and have no Stefan or Daigle in his id) to risk something like that. don't get me wrong, Carter is no slouch and is likely to score in bunches, but give the guy immediately multiple tens of millions of dollars (over the years) while decent Wings prospects fight for roster spot and good salary for years...? talk about setting bad example.


last time Wings signed a deal like that was Bobby Lang. just to remind you...

akustyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 10:27 AM
  #37
BF3
Boom Roasted.
 
BF3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cbus
Country: United States
Posts: 1,459
vCash: 500
Z-Pav-Bert
Fil-Carter-Mule

Z's goals go way up, we get a top 6...but Cbus wouldn't trade in the division, right?

BF3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 10:33 AM
  #38
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 22,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alConn View Post
Z-Pav-Bert
Fil-Carter-Mule

Z's goals go way up, we get a top 6...but Cbus wouldn't trade in the division, right?
Really don't want to watch Carter play with Mule

Carter has experience on the wing in fact he generally looks his best while playing on the wing. Either Bert or Huds would be the likely demotion, so I agree with that part if he was ever brought in. Just think you would keep your two 40 goal threats on different lines.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 10:36 AM
  #39
BF3
Boom Roasted.
 
BF3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cbus
Country: United States
Posts: 1,459
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Really don't want to watch Carter play with Mule

Carter has experience on the wing in fact he generally looks his best while playing on the wing. Either Bert or Huds would be the likely demotion, so I agree with that part if he was ever brought in. Just think you would keep your two 40 goal threats on different lines.
Yea, my bad...wasn't really considering who to put on 2nd, more of a put Z on Pav's line as a winger, Carter 2nd center, put Hudler on 3rd. Whatever works. Regardless, I think Carter is exactly what we want with a contract we really don't want. Add in that Cbus is in the division and I just don't see it happening.

BF3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 11:14 AM
  #40
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 22,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by akustyk View Post
mega long contract for an unproven (in Winged Wheel) player?

dunno... he'd have to be a 1st draft pick (and have no Stefan or Daigle in his id) to risk something like that. don't get me wrong, Carter is no slouch and is likely to score in bunches, but give the guy immediately multiple tens of millions of dollars (over the years) while decent Wings prospects fight for roster spot and good salary for years...? talk about setting bad example.


last time Wings signed a deal like that was Bobby Lang. just to remind you...
I am confused by this post if you are asking is Jeff Carter a first round pick?

The answer is yes. 11th overall in 2003. Somehow people want to label him a bust because he didn't get along with Pronger (great in my book) and likes to have fun as a mid-20's single guy.

What has he done to earn the money?

Carter already has an established track record as a goal scorer in his seven years in the league his previous four seasons goal totals are (29, 46, 36, 33) which is among the best strike rate in the entire NHL. You tell me the home grown guy that is doing that and I will run to hand them the 5.2 and change that is Carter's cap hit. I don't think it sets a bad example, it fills a glaring weakness in our top 6. A big right handed shot that wants to shot the puck and shares the Wings long loved tendency as a natural center that can play on the wing. You know who didn't prove his worth growing up a Wing in the system? Shanahan. I love the Wings prospects but it is unlikely that even more than one of them right now turns into a better player than Carter, so protect that guy in the deal. He won't deplete the whole farm system and these cheaper younger players only matter if the Wings actually promote a bunch of them at the same time which seems incredible unlikely.

To put it very simply a bunch of people want Parise (17th overall, 2003 same draft year). Is he a better player? Maybe, and it is only a slight advantage. But he is a smaller left handed shooting wing, that is a better passer than Carter. That and his cap figure is very likely in the 8 million range. He is not that much better than Carter. Getting Carter allows faith that both Filppula and the big free agent D-man we long for very soon are realistic options in the cap world. It would be a brilliant move in Ken Holland somehow hoodwinked the Jackets into sending him our direction.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 12:08 PM
  #41
WingShadowZ
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Yeah the influx of FREEP forum people is very unwelcome. One of the great things about HF Boards is that it has required an invite in the past and it kept the quality very high compared to RWC, Lets Go Wings and the FREEP. That quality is going downhill very, very quickly. I realize there are certain elements here that don't like us talking about posters but when the quality drops off as quickly as it has it becomes a very slippery slope where that element will take over the boards. And it just isn't as enjoyable an experience as it once was.

Just my $0.02. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Well, thanks a bunch for not trashing the old Detroit News forum. That's where I came from. I've tried to get in here in the past, but it was always closed when I inquired.

WingShadowZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 12:25 PM
  #42
WingShadowZ
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
His mediocre showing in CBus is off-putting, though, and I can't imagine the asking price would be cheap. I'm with you, though, in thinking they should just hang onto him. They've been bit by injuries this season (Huselius was/is out, Carter's out, Wisniewski's out), and then some other guys just fell through the floor (Umberger,Vermette, Brassard).

With all of the Sabre trade talk, they should go after Roy. He could be the #1 center they've lacked, and allow them to comfortably move Carter to the second line to give them some goal scoring depth. Also, get a decent coach.
Columbus shouldn't be that bad considering where they've been able to draft over the years. I'm more and more convinced, they just don't have the proper management team in place. Their ownership situation isn't the best either, with small groups having stakes with the team. The organization just doesn't seem to be all on the same page. When it seems they might be getting it together, they change coaches, yet have kept guys like Hitch on their payroll. IMO, they make too many panic moves.

Historically, their drafts have been pretty much busts, although they have been able to get some good players. They would of been better this season had they not accrued all those injuries. At least they attempted to show their fan base, that they were serious about changing the fortunes of the team, but ran into some bad luck.

WingShadowZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 01:16 PM
  #43
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglepride View Post
soon to be injury prone and its not like he is using his size at all.
Tea leaves? Palm reading? Interview with Jeff Gilooly? How is he "soon-to-be" injury-prone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by akustyk View Post
mega long contract for an unproven (in Winged Wheel) player?

dunno... he'd have to be a 1st draft pick (and have no Stefan or Daigle in his id) to risk something like that. don't get me wrong, Carter is no slouch and is likely to score in bunches, but give the guy immediately multiple tens of millions of dollars (over the years) while decent Wings prospects fight for roster spot and good salary for years...? talk about setting bad example.


last time Wings signed a deal like that was Bobby Lang. just to remind you...
Thing people are forgetting about Carter; he'd be acquired largely based on his Columbus performance, but we'd be getting Philadelphia Carter. Why, you ask? Look at his circumstances. Carter is a goal-scoring player. Given similar corcumstances, he's probably one of the most talented goal scorers in the league. He had a great setup in Philly; he scored bunches of goals playing with Daniel Briere, who is an excellent (and incredibly unheralded) playmaker. In Columbus, he was brought in as "this is a guy who is young and can be a top center for years!" and paid up big for him to play with Nash without recognizing the fact that they are similar skill-set players. Carter was be expected to completely change his game from focusing on what he's good at to focusing on what he's okay at. Getting Carter out of Columbus would work for the Wings because the Wings have a bunch of skilled playmakers, but Hudler is the best under-30 goal-scorer on the team. Columbus would want to recoup some of that payout that they gave up, and they would want a legit center. Were Columbus a playoff team, the Wings would probably be looking at something like Filppula and a 1st at minimum. Probably takes a little more to get him from an in-division team that is playoff-bound. But realistically, Carter could probably be had for Nyquist, a 2nd, and maybe a defenseman (Ericsson or Kindl if they want NHL experience, probably Nicastro otherwise.) or perhaps an additional mid-range pick.

Nyquist would of course be immediately stuck with Nash, and the combination would either work or not work. If it worked and Nyquist started scoring like a king, Wings fans around here all start Quincey threads about Nyquist. Regardless of the fact that Carter would likely be killing it playing in a top-six with Dats, Z, Flip, Franzen, and Huds. Four guys with high-end playmaking skills. Add Carter and there's Dats, Franzen, Hudler, and so far this season Flip who have been killing it in goals; although I would be looking for a big bump from Z down the stretch. Carter and Franzen become the "go-to" snipers on their line, Dats and Z center and serve the primary playmaker role, and Flip and Huds play the secondary playmaker role while punching them in as well.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 01:28 PM
  #44
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
To put it very simply a bunch of people want Parise (17th overall, 2003 same draft year). Is he a better player? Maybe, and it is only a slight advantage. But he is a smaller left handed shooting wing, that is a better passer than Carter. That and his cap figure is very likely in the 8 million range. He is not that much better than Carter.
Carter is decent defensively. Parise is EXCELLENT defensively. Parise can also serve as a playmaker, while Carter is a sniper who has managed to get some decent assist numbers because he played with highly skilled offensive linemates like Daniel Briere.

Quote:
Getting Carter allows faith that both Filppula and the big free agent D-man we long for very soon are realistic options in the cap world. It would be a brilliant move in Ken Holland somehow hoodwinked the Jackets into sending him our direction.
The Wings currently have enough cap space to take on Jeff Carter without making any other cap-based moves. It would affect the summer, because having his $5+m reduces the flexibility, but it also means the team already has that top-six goal-scoring forward. I'd rather Parise, but if the options are Carter+Suter or just Parise... I'm in for the first. Depending of course on the deal. Like I said before, the Wings can probably get away with not giving up any significant roster players. Nyquist is nice and has a hype machine, but is he a better prospect than Tatar, Pulu, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Sheahan? Nyquist makes the most sense because he's NHL-ready and they'd be like "derp, young SWEDISH center from the Wings' system who has been eating up the AHL? I'm SOLD!" Kind of like how people acted about him in preseason and since then, when half of those posters had NO CLUE who he was until then.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 01:38 PM
  #45
Polydorus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 137
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
One of the great things about HF Boards is that it has required an invite in the past
When was an invitation required to post here?

Polydorus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 01:51 PM
  #46
67coach
Registered User
 
67coach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Detroit MI
Country: England
Posts: 900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I would gladly accept Carter, big right handed shot and a pure goal scorer. His cap hit is actually pretty good considering what he is when he is on top of his game. His value might never be lower than this again until the very last years of his deal. Still don't think Columbus would ever offer him up in division.
I don't know why everyone is getting in a tizzy about Carters contract. I agree with Redwings19405. Carter's deal isn't the albetross that people are saying and he is obviously extremely unhappy in Columbus.
I don't think the price for Carter will be as astronomical as people think either, remember he has an NTC that kicks in next season and if Columbus don't trade him, they are stuck with an unhappy player in a city he doesn't like. This deosn't equal a good environment for anyone.

If the opportunity is there I would go and get him.

67coach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:15 PM
  #47
FabricDetails
Registered User
 
FabricDetails's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,073
vCash: 500
What if Chicago got him? Odds on favorite?

FabricDetails is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:40 PM
  #48
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 22,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Carter is decent defensively. Parise is EXCELLENT defensively. Parise can also serve as a playmaker, while Carter is a sniper who has managed to get some decent assist numbers because he played with highly skilled offensive linemates like Daniel Briere.



The Wings currently have enough cap space to take on Jeff Carter without making any other cap-based moves. It would affect the summer, because having his $5+m reduces the flexibility, but it also means the team already has that top-six goal-scoring forward. I'd rather Parise, but if the options are Carter+Suter or just Parise... I'm in for the first. Depending of course on the deal. Like I said before, the Wings can probably get away with not giving up any significant roster players. Nyquist is nice and has a hype machine, but is he a better prospect than Tatar, Pulu, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Sheahan? Nyquist makes the most sense because he's NHL-ready and they'd be like "derp, young SWEDISH center from the Wings' system who has been eating up the AHL? I'm SOLD!" Kind of like how people acted about him in preseason and since then, when half of those posters had NO CLUE who he was until then.

Nyquist isn't a center first of all. His future seems destined on either one of the wings at the pro level. He is every bit the most talented forward player in our system and I have been saying that since his sophomore year at Maine. If you have the ability to watch him play at some point do it. He stands out on a nightly basis with the Griffins. I have said before on these forums but will say it again he is already the third best passing forward in the entire system on his backhand, prospects, current Wings the whole lot. He makes plays with the puck that are downright Datsyukian. His puck control and vision are elite, it isn't a mistake that he has made a quick transition first to North America scoring at a huge rate a Maine then seamlessly from college to pro. He thinks and process the game at a higher level than most guys, you can see it. The fact he is 22 does mean he should be farther along, but it is noticeable how far along he is in the process. Tatar is NHL ready also, I would rather package both him and Andersson than touch Nyquist.


Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 01-31-2012 at 02:46 PM.
The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 02:56 PM
  #49
WesNichols14
Registered User
 
WesNichols14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Port Huron Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 1,508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Nyquist isn't a center first of all. His future seems destined on either one of the wings at the pro level. He is every bit the most talented forward player in our system and I have been saying that since his sophomore year at Maine. If you have the ability to watch him play at some point do it. He stands out on a nightly basis with the Griffins. I have said before on these forums but will say it again he is already the third best passing forward in the entire system on his backhand, prospects, current Wings the whole lot. He makes plays with the puck that are downright Datsyukian. His puck control and vision are elite, it isn't a mistake that he has made a quick transition first to North America scoring at a huge rate a Maine then seamlessly from college to pro. He thinks and process the game at a higher level than most guys, you can see it. The fact he is 22 does mean he should be farther along, but it is noticeable how far along he is in the process. Tatar is NHL ready also, I would rather package both him and Andersson than touch Nyquist.
completely 100% agree

WesNichols14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2012, 03:14 PM
  #50
DarkReign
Registered User
 
DarkReign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,602
vCash: 500
Carter would be a great addition, imo.

I said it another thread, but lines would look like this:

Bert - Pavel - Mule
Flip - Carter - Z

Z has slowed, it isnt a secret anymore. He doesnt have the wheels to separate himself anymore. So let him be the playmaker on the wing, with Carter the finisher and Flip the 5-tool player that he already is.

The first line works, this much is proven. Second line, the more I look at it, looks like it could work wonderfully. It could get weird that Z would have to defensively play center (dont know enough about Carter defensively), but you have 2 guys on one line who can take a faceoff when Z inevitably gets kicked out.

DarkReign is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:04 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.