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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Worst Market For the NHL?

View Poll Results: What team is in the worst market in the NHL?
Anaheim Mighty Ducks 25 14.71%
Atlanta Thrashers 6 3.53%
Carolina Hurricanes 87 51.18%
Columbus Blue Jackets 2 1.18%
Florida Panthers 12 7.06%
Los Angeles Kings 0 0%
Nashville Predators 11 6.47%
Phoenix Coyotes 9 5.29%
Pittsburgh Penguins 8 4.71%
Other 10 5.88%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-20-2004, 08:31 AM
  #76
The Kitner Boy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SedinFan
I chose Carolina because there is NO way that there should be a team in Raleigh, not even Canes fans can support that.
You are right, Canes fans can't support that.

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Old
10-20-2004, 08:32 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
I know fans in other markets and Canada will never accept this or may point to the 80's for the Islanders and 94 for the Rangers. But today the New York City hockey market is one of the worst in the country. During a six month regular season nothing that happens on the ice will change that perception. Hockey here hits the homestretch and the bulk of the media heads to Florida for spring training. The local radio hosts do not take calls about hockey and their hosts cannot even name five players on each team.

Pittsburgh, Florida have more dedicated coverage on hockey than they do in New York City.

In terms of fans, media coverage and standing with the general public casual sports fans would hardly notice if all three teams went out of business tomorrow. Thousands of empty seats in all three local arenas, even with the Rangers having an 80-90 million dollar team that are totally invisible in the Yankees year-round market.

The journalists have no time to cover hockey players when they have the Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Knicks and Nets. Also the game plays to one demographic here, between that and the high prices and boring product all that's left is are the
die-hards who remember the old days.

Rangers on Abc produced ratings equal to Islander owners Charles Wang's Arena Football team in New York...Even as far back as 1999 Rangers-Wings produced
a 0.9 rating and hockey journalists claimed the game was in trouble here back then.

Personally I think the game would be better off in a surburb and not the city market where there is no room in the press to cover it any longer. Why is a sports editor going to send his people to speak with an Islander, Ranger or Devil when there are Yankees and Mets to talk with. All winter long rotissary baseball will dominate the back pages, football and both basketball teams take the rest.

I agree to some extent, but IMO the fact the the Rangers have been a complete non-factor for 7 years now, has really exaggerated the situation.

Although the Devils play 10 miles from Manhattan, they will never be considered a NY team, and won't get the attention they deserve.

The Rangers and Isles have won just 5 playoff games over the last 7 years.

If the Rangers had the success of the Devils over the last decade, you would see much more attention paid to the hockey team (still not close to what the Giants, Jets, Yankees or Mets get)

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Old
10-20-2004, 09:45 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I agree to some extent, but IMO the fact the the Rangers have been a complete non-factor for 7 years now, has really exaggerated the situation. Although the Devils play 10 miles from Manhattan, they will never be considered a NY team, and won't get the attention they deserve.
I understand your point but over that seven years baseball grew to 5x what it used to be here and losing is as big a story as winning. The Rangers were nine games over five hundred, in first place in December of 2001. They got the exact same coverage and attention they get now.

The Devils, Giants and Jets share the same parking lot. It all depends on where newspaper editors send their writers and who calls themselves New York. The Nets get more coverage than the Rangers in New York City. That's only going to improve when they move to Brooklyn.

I think at this point no local hockey team here can get any more coverage than they currently get during the regular season. As for the playoffs when the Ranger return to the playoffs they will get the huge bump Islanders-Leafs gave hockey here in 2002. For the Isles (and the media now) the thrill of qualifying is over and they have to win to get a bump in coverage. The Devils have to make the semi-finals to even get noticed locally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The Rangers and Isles have won just 5 playoff games over the last 7 years.
And just as bad they have not played a single playoff series and the rivalry is reduced to the die-hards and a generation of sports fans have stopped noticing.

Even a April 2002 matchup for the eighth seed got no attention locally. Why? Yankees and Mets opening day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If the Rangers had the success of the Devils over the last decade, you would see much more attention paid to the hockey team (still not close to what the Giants, Jets, Yankees or Mets get)
This is not Philadelphia, in that market the Flyers can get some attention on a daily basis over baseball even thought nationally I felt a seven game series with the Flyers had no impact on hockey which is another very bad sign for hockey in this country. Philadelphia-Rangers, Colorado-Detroit played in a semi-final and the game got no bump from those playoffs.

If the Philadelphia market cannot elevate the NHL when their building has real sellouts why would the Rangers?

Let's not even consider a successful Knicks team and a completely different fan demographic.

Bottom line why would a sports editor in New York send a journalist (not the teams beatwriter) to cover a Fedor Tyutin, Paul Martin or Rick DiPietro in New York when the Yankees are trying to sign Carlos Beltre or Pedro Martinez and the Mets are hiring a manager or persuing their own free agents? The Giants and Jets have playoff aspirations or mini camps or the NFL draft (usually at Msg) and there are the Knicks and Nets. The competition among journalists has even made people like Al Morganti and Jay Greenberg (who were hockey die-hards in Philadelphia) start writing more about baseball.

Imagine the Rangers in a final with the Yankees and Mets play interleague games and another Clemmens-Piazza like brawl were to happen. Take a guess who get's the back page?

As Joe Torres says everyday is July 31st in New York.


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Old
10-20-2004, 10:48 AM
  #79
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I don't understand how Carolina has 62 votes, and places like Nashville and Florida only get 8.

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Old
10-20-2004, 01:32 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
I don't understand how Carolina has 62 votes, and places like Nashville and Florida only get 8.
Read my post.

Nashville will return to the middle of the pack this next season in attendace. We don't generate a bunch of money but we don't lose a bunch either.

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Old
10-20-2004, 01:51 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SedinFan
Surprised to see Columbus on that list. Probably, next to Minnesota, the best recent expansion city.

LA's a good market too.

I chose Carolina because there is NO way that there should be a team in Raleigh, not even Canes fans can support that.
I've already explained in other messages in this thread what my reasoning was for including Columbus... It's not a thought I agree with... I think Columbus has become an excellent hockey market... My inclusion of Columbus on the list is due mainly to the fact that they are always brought up as a franchise that should be considered if contraction is an option... I don't think they should... But many (in my opinion, not so bright) people on here tend to bring them up a lot...

And as I said in another message... The proof is in the pudding... so far, only 1 person has voted for them...

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Old
10-20-2004, 01:58 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Disney definitely has the money, but are looking to sell, and thats not the money I was referring to. I was referring to the money in the market. There is little doubt that Orange County has a great deal of money in it.
My mistake... I didn't understand what you meant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
The Ducks' name and jerseys dug the team so deep a hole with traditionalist hockey fans that its likely never to crawl out, respect-wise. The Ducks will always be mentioned at the top of these lists because a) a non-traditional hockey market, b) warm weather (closely related to A), c) the ridiculous name. As long as these factors exist, regardless of whether a relevant argument against them exists, people will continually try to get them out of the league.
I truly think that part of Anaheim's inability to be taken seriously as a legitimate hockey team/market is the stupid name and ugly jersey... It's too gimicky...

As soon as I heard that Disney was looking to sell, the first thing that popped into my mind was that I just pray that whoever buys them has the intelligence to go through whatever red tape is necessary to change the name of the team... If I was a Ducks fan, I couldn't get the phrase out of my mouth (that i was a mighty ducks fan) without feeling self conscious... If they want committed fans, they need to name the team in a way that allows the fans to be proud to pronounce their loyalty to their team...

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Old
10-20-2004, 06:57 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgallant
I've already explained in other messages in this thread what my reasoning was for including Columbus... It's not a thought I agree with... I think Columbus has become an excellent hockey market... My inclusion of Columbus on the list is due mainly to the fact that they are always brought up as a franchise that should be considered if contraction is an option... I don't think they should... But many (in my opinion, not so bright) people on here tend to bring them up a lot...

And as I said in another message... The proof is in the pudding... so far, only 1 person has voted for them...
Good to see.

Unfortunately, the occasional blow-hard still pops up to argue that Hamilton (or Pig's Knuckle, Manitoba, for that matter) deserves an NHL team more than Columbus --- even given what the market here has shown, to date.

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Old
10-20-2004, 11:45 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotnos
Yup, based on everything I've read, the "big TV deal" that hasn't materialized was at the center of everything for the past decade and a half, not to mention the expansion fees. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, in Gil Stein's book he goes on at some length about how badly he wanted the Disney name attached to the NHL, as he thought it would raise the profile of the league or something like that. He REALLY wanted Anaheim in the league, more than any of the other teams he brought in.


Thank you, finally someone gets it. I have never understood why what some fool on the beach down here said to some Canadian media outlet during the playoffs gets used to paint us all with the same broad brush.
Of course nobody can deny that Canadian teams get their share of abuse. You wont believe how many times us Canadians were reminded during the SCF that the Stanley Cup doesn't belong up here. Oh well, atleast we got the World Vase. I wanna smash that thing to the ground.

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Old
10-21-2004, 01:53 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgallant
As soon as I heard that Disney was looking to sell, the first thing that popped into my mind was that I just pray that whoever buys them has the intelligence to go through whatever red tape is necessary to change the name of the team... If I was a Ducks fan, I couldn't get the phrase out of my mouth (that i was a mighty ducks fan) without feeling self conscious... If they want committed fans, they need to name the team in a way that allows the fans to be proud to pronounce their loyalty to their team...

You're 100% right. I felt the same way when I heard they were looking to sell. I'll tell you, its tough being a Ducks supporter anywhere outside of the OC.

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Old
10-21-2004, 01:54 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketracket
Good to see.

Unfortunately, the occasional blow-hard still pops up to argue that Hamilton (or Pig's Knuckle, Manitoba, for that matter) deserves an NHL team more than Columbus --- even given what the market here has shown, to date.
Even dropping the "mighty" would be a step in the right direction. The defunct Long Island Ducks have something of a cult following.

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Old
10-21-2004, 02:08 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. X
You are right, Canes fans can't support that.
Exactly. They don't show up to games, so why have a team. Even after a Cup run, their attendance increased to 15,500 or so. Terrible. Just a horrible market.

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10-21-2004, 03:08 PM
  #88
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Should move the Ducks to the Northwest - Seattle or Oregon and change the stupid name and jerseys.

Nashville fans are starting to really get into the games, they have been making the trip to St. Louis. They think we are thier rivals, just as we think the Red Wings are ours.

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Old
10-22-2004, 10:41 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SedinFan
Exactly. They don't show up to games, so why have a team. Even after a Cup run, their attendance increased to 15,500 or so. Terrible. Just a horrible market.

Would you have paid to see the 'canes the last two years? I had season tickets and I probably only went to half the games after the all start break. The same thing is happening in Chicago, but that is a great hockey market. When it happens in Raleigh the team should be moved.

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10-22-2004, 01:59 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Read my post.

Nashville will return to the middle of the pack this next season in attendace. We don't generate a bunch of money but we don't lose a bunch either.
Middle of the pack will probably mean 9,000-10,000 per game. It took years to introduce the Sun-Belt cities to the game of ice hockey. Don't be suprised when you see sparse crowds throught the US once the lockout is settled. It will take years for the NHL to recover from this.

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10-22-2004, 02:20 PM
  #91
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Actually it will be above 13k. If you bought a season ticket for this season you signed a contract saying you would continue to hold you tickets whenever play resumed.

Season ticket sales the first year were just over 13k so if this season has been better than the first it's safe to assume it will be over 13k

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10-22-2004, 03:35 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Actually it will be above 13k. If you bought a season ticket for this season you signed a contract saying you would continue to hold you tickets whenever play resumed.

Season ticket sales the first year were just over 13k so if this season has been better than the first it's safe to assume it will be over 13k
Good to hear.

Were you able to make any of the playoff games, Trigg? Place was rocking on tv --- I can't imagine what it was like in person!

Catfish on the ice, in a playoff game against the Wings --- priceless!

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10-22-2004, 06:53 PM
  #93
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I'm glad to see Pittsburgh isn't getting too many votes. I think it's a good example of why it's hard to say what is and isn't a good hockey market.

There's a lot of media coverage of the team, strong youth hockey programs, a long history of professional hockey in the area, and they drew very well not too long ago.

The don't make a lot of money right now, because the team is terrible, the city's economy is bad, and the arena doesn't have all the latest money-generating bells and whistles (though it's a fine place to watch hockey, if that's what you're there for).

The NHL is never going to compete with the Steelers here, but it draws per-game about as well as the Pirates. It may not be the best hockey market in North America, but it's not a bad market, either.

That said, I have no idea if it will recover from the lockout at all, and if the team ties staying in Pgh to a new, public-funded arena, it's not likely to get it. That doesn't really say whether it's a good hockey market or not, either. It doesn't matter who you're holding hostage if no one can afford the ransom.

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Old
10-23-2004, 03:07 PM
  #94
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Nashville.

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