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ATD 2012 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
02-22-2012, 08:58 PM
  #301
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I wouldn't say that. Gardiner is a top-end #3, and Plager a lower-tier #4. it's probably about an average pairing.
Thanks, but it really doesn't matter who I put on my team, they'll be "underwhelming"

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02-22-2012, 09:09 PM
  #302
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Better than Gardiner-Plager:

Stuart-Crawford
Mortson-Blake
Wentworth-Dutton(could argue even, but I think Wentworth-Dutton is better)
Lowe-Reardon
Boucher-Watson
Vasko-Patrick
Gerard-Heller
Ramsey-Desjardins
Goodfellow-Reise
Conacher-Housley
Stapleton-Harris
Patrick-Schoenfeld

Even compared to Gardiner-Plager:

Day-Stanowski
Hartsburg-Johnson
Ross-Goldham
Griffis-Hajt

Worse than Gardiner-Plager:

Beck-Boyle
Mohns-Carlyle
Talbot-Burrows
Davydov-Hollett
Pulford-Numminen
Gonchar-Harper
Hatcher-Duncan
Hall-Pratt
Neilson-Simpson
Ivanov-Ragulin

4 teams have not completed their 2nd pairings. I revise my statement, I think it's just slightly below average.

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02-22-2012, 09:24 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Better than Gardiner-Plager:

Stuart-Crawford
Mortson-Blake
Wentworth-Dutton(could argue even, but I think Wentworth-Dutton is better)
Lowe-Reardon
Boucher-Watson
Vasko-Patrick
Gerard-Heller
Ramsey-Desjardins
Goodfellow-Reise
Conacher-Housley
Stapleton-Harris
Patrick-Schoenfeld

Even compared to Gardiner-Plager:

Day-Stanowski
Hartsburg-Johnson
Ross-Goldham
Griffis-Hajt

Worse than Gardiner-Plager:

Beck-Boyle
Mohns-Carlyle
Talbot-Burrows
Davydov-Hollett
Pulford-Numminen
Gonchar-Harper
Hatcher-Duncan
Hall-Pratt
Neilson-Simpson
Ivanov-Ragulin

4 teams have not completed their 2nd pairings. I revise my statement, I think it's just slightly below average.
You think Harb Gardiner is that much better than Harvey Puford?

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02-22-2012, 09:38 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Better than Gardiner-Plager:

Stuart-Crawford
Mortson-Blake
Wentworth-Dutton(could argue even, but I think Wentworth-Dutton is better)
Lowe-Reardon
Boucher-Watson
Vasko-Patrick
Gerard-Heller
Ramsey-Desjardins
Goodfellow-Reise
Conacher-Housley
Stapleton-Harris
Patrick-Schoenfeld

Even compared to Gardiner-Plager:

Day-Stanowski
Hartsburg-Johnson
Ross-Goldham
Griffis-Hajt

Worse than Gardiner-Plager:

Beck-Boyle
Mohns-Carlyle
Talbot-Burrows
Davydov-Hollett
Pulford-Numminen
Gonchar-Harper
Hatcher-Duncan
Hall-Pratt
Neilson-Simpson
Ivanov-Ragulin

4 teams have not completed their 2nd pairings. I revise my statement, I think it's just slightly below average.
I think Mohns-Carlyle are more even to Gardiner-Plager.

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02-22-2012, 09:49 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You think Harb Gardiner is that much better than Harvey Puford?
I really just don't know what to make of Harvey Pulford. Looking back, putting them in even sounds more fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I think Mohns-Carlyle are more even to Gardiner-Plager.
The way I saw it was, the gap between Gardiner and Mohns is a bit larger than the gap between Carlyle and Plager. I'm really not a fan of Carlyle. I see two big offensive seasons, then a couple decent ones, and not much else. An argument for even is certainly a valid one though.

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02-22-2012, 09:59 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I really just don't know what to make of Harvey Pulford. Looking back, putting them in even sounds more fair.



The way I saw it was, the gap between Gardiner and Mohns is a bit larger than the gap between Carlyle and Plager. I'm really not a fan of Carlyle. I see two big offensive seasons, then a couple decent ones, and not much else. An argument for even is certainly a valid one though.
That's fair, although Carlyle does seem like a one-hit wonder due to his peak, he was actually a pretty complete defenseman. There isn't too much on him, but my bio has some evidence on his game. And just wondering your opinion, what do you think separates Mohns and Gardiner by so much?

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02-22-2012, 09:59 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I really just don't know what to make of Harvey Pulford. Looking back, putting them in even sounds more fair.
Do you really think it's fair to place Herb Gardiner ahead of Harvey Pulford? In the recent defensemen poject, Pulford was ranked #60 all time, and Gardiner was never even in the discussion.

Numminen's Norris record is stronger than Plager's, and it's in a stronf era too. He's clearly better.

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02-22-2012, 10:01 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
That's fair, although Carlyle does seem like a one-hit wonder due to his peak, he was actually a pretty complete defenseman. There isn't too much on him, but my bio has some evidence on his game. And just wondering your opinion, what do you think separates Mohns and Gardiner by so much?
Actually, Carlyle and Gardiner are pretty equal. One great season really carries them both. I'd probably have Carlyle ahead. Mohns is way better than Plager.

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02-22-2012, 10:08 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Actually, Carlyle and Gardiner are pretty equal. One great season really carries them both. I'd probably have Carlyle ahead. Mohns is way better than Plager.
Herb Gardiner was selected a 2nd Team All Star by the NHL managers in 1927-28, the season after his Hart win. So his second best season is definitely better than Carlyle's second best. I'd take him over either Mohns or Carlyle. Plager's definitely the worst of the bunch, though.

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02-22-2012, 10:08 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Actually, Carlyle and Gardiner are pretty equal. One great season really carries them both. I'd probably have Carlyle ahead. Mohns is way better than Plager.





Haha let's completely ignore all of the pre-NHL seasons Gardiner has had prior to joing Montreal.


Tomorrow I'll post a couple of the numerous quotes praising Gardiner for his Pre NL years.

Also Gardiners "1 year" blows Carlyles out of the water.

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02-22-2012, 10:21 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Herb Gardiner was selected a 2nd Team All Star by the NHL managers in 1927-28, the season after his Hart win. So his second best season is definitely better than Carlyle's second best. I'd take him over either Mohns or Carlyle. Plager's definitely the worst of the bunch, though.
Carlyle has some Norris consideration beyond his win too.

I might take Gardiner too, but I think you have to at least see that they're relatively close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Haha let's completely ignore all of the pre-NHL seasons Gardiner has had prior to joing Montreal.
Not ignoring them, but they are no more significant than Carlyle's non-Norris seasons. They're probably less significant.


Quote:
Also Gardiners "1 year" blows Carlyles out of the water.
I'm not even sure it's better, let alone way better.

An old Hart, which may or may not mean he was the best defenseman, vs. a modern Norris.

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02-22-2012, 11:34 PM
  #312
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seventies, jarek, Sturm, anyone not in the draft, are you willing to answer a PM question I have about advice. I hate asking but I'm really struggling to figure out what I want to do with something....
Fire away.

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02-22-2012, 11:36 PM
  #313
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fire away.
boom!

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02-22-2012, 11:36 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He is a legend to St. Louis - absolutely beloved there. And I think that overpowers his resume as a player.
If he was really beloved, they would have built a statue of him. That's how they roll.

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02-22-2012, 11:39 PM
  #315
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Having a statue built after you is pretty much the equivalent of adding 3 Hart Trophies to your resume.

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Old
02-23-2012, 02:11 AM
  #316
MadArcand
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Gardiner's really getting underrated here. To me, he's a good #2, but then Plager's just a good #6, so the pairing's quite average.

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02-23-2012, 02:24 AM
  #317
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Gardiner's really getting underrated here. To me, he's a good #2, but then Plager's just a good #6, so the pairing's quite average.
A good #2 in a 32 team draft? Not a chance. There are only 64 top-2 defensemen here, so he'd have to be a borderline top-50 defenseman to be considered a good #2.

Gardiner probably belongs more in the 70-80 range, which makes him a good #3.

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02-23-2012, 02:34 AM
  #318
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Look at the top pairings in the roster thread. You can probably find at least 10 D-men there worse than him. This may be caused by chemistry/fit issues in many cases though (I can't otherwise fathom why Suter and Reinhart would be on top pairings...).

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02-23-2012, 02:37 AM
  #319
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My pair of Hartsburg-Johnson is better than Gardiner-Plager clearly, not equal.

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02-23-2012, 02:38 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
A good #2 in a 32 team draft? Not a chance. There are only 64 top-2 defensemen here, so he'd have to be a borderline top-50 defenseman to be considered a good #2.

Gardiner probably belongs more in the 70-80 range, which makes him a good #3.
I agree. I also agree that Gardiner's Hart is not more impressive than Carlyle's Norris.

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02-23-2012, 02:40 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Look at the top pairings in the roster thread. You can probably find at least 10 D-men there worse than him. This may be caused by chemistry/fit issues in many cases though (I can't otherwise fathom why Suter and Reinhart would be on top pairings...).
I don't really care what any rosters look like. It doesn't have any bearing on Gardiner's ranking. For him to be called a good #2, he'd have to be among the top-50 defensemen of all time, and he certainly isn't.

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02-23-2012, 02:42 AM
  #322
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I agree. I also agree that Gardiner's Hart is not more impressive than Carlyle's Norris.
I greatly disagree. Carlyle's undeserved Norris beats Hart now? Really?

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02-23-2012, 02:44 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Look at the top pairings in the roster thread. You can probably find at least 10 D-men there worse than him. This may be caused by chemistry/fit issues in many cases though (I can't otherwise fathom why Suter and Reinhart would be on top pairings...).
Because teams go for balance instead of stacking up the top two lines and top pair?

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02-23-2012, 02:46 AM
  #324
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My pair of Hartsburg-Johnson is better than Gardiner-Plager clearly, not equal.
I'm probably lower on Tom Johnson than anybody, but he's still better than Gardiner. Hartsberg is also a little better than Plager.

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02-23-2012, 02:50 AM
  #325
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I greatly disagree. Carlyle's undeserved Norris beats Hart now? Really?
We're not even sure what that Hart means? Does it mean he was the best defenseman?

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