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ATD 2012 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
02-23-2012, 09:13 AM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So you're telling me for the last week, i've heard all of this talk about Worters Hart voting etc... and now Gardiners Hart get's brought up and this is the discussion?
Did I miss all the Worters Hart talk? Nobody is out to get you, Mark, nor are we out to get Herb Gardiner. I was just saying that I don't value a pre-war Hart for a defenseman higher than a modern Norris. I don't see why you should object to that.

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02-23-2012, 09:15 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Did I miss all the Worters Hart talk? Nobody is out to get you, Mark, nor are we out to get Herb Gardiner. I was just saying that I don't value a pre-war Hart for a defenseman higher than a modern Norris. I don't see why you should object to that.
Apparently, all I heard was how Hainsworth didn't receive any Hart recognize etc.. etc...


I mentioned that a big reason because of this was because the Hart voting was looked upon differently then and he had guys like Morenz and Joliat on his team.

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02-23-2012, 09:17 AM
  #353
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The PHWA voted players for the all-star game in 1980-81.

Defence results, using a 5-3-1 ballot.

Campbell results: Potvin 151, Ramage 76, XXX and XXX

Wales results: Howe 99, Robinson 84, Carlyle 77, Salming 72

What happened between the all-star break and the end of the season? Howe got impaled on a goal post and missed 20 games. Robinson missed 15 games. Potvin missed 6 games.

Carlyle probably doesn't win the Norris without injuries clearing the way.

(Don't have a source handy. Search Google News Archive for Campbell conference all star voting around January 1981 if you want to find it.)

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02-23-2012, 09:19 AM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Apparently, all I heard was how Hainsworth didn't receive any Hart recognize etc.. etc...

I mentioned that a big reason because of this was because the Hart voting was looked upon differently then and he had guys like Morenz and Joliat on his team.
Well then, I would have to agree with you. Worters' teams were typically really bad, and I doubt he would have gotten much Hart love playing in Montreal, either. The pre-all-star Hart voting is likely a major distortion with respect to player performance, but unfortunately it is the best metric we have.

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02-23-2012, 09:25 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
This kind of "anti-historical" argument needs some kind of hard information to back it up. Otherwise, it's just talk from a person who was drinking from sippy cups when Carlyle won his Norris.
I agree, it has been happening an awful lot lately on the history board as well.

The stats that people are revising history with were (in most of these cases) available at the time as well. The voters have the advantage of having just seen the games in question.

So then it boils down to hubris. What makes us think we know better now with less information than they had available to them then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I agree with you that modern players are traditionally nitpicked to death here and on the history board while the flaws of older players tend to get glossed over.

But I think we should take a critical view of all players, when it's possible. (For some time now, I've gone out of my way to "nitpick" older players to even the scales. I definitely pissed off some of the more conservative members of the defenseman project with some of my posts on Bill Gadsby and Lionel Conacher in particular).

Though you do have a point here. It's easy to criticize Carlyle, while taking the default position on Gardiner (he deserved the award unless proven otherwise).
That is one of the big problems with our evaluation of players. For the older players we have much less information available to us and so they escape a lot of criticism simply because there is nothing to criticize. Not only that, no one saw them play to even put their statistics into context.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I did a very quick search, with Google news archives being fubar and most articles being not free to view. Found a 1999 (too late IMO) article from Boston Globe writer:
This one is long after the fact and obviously he has a man love for Bourque.

Quote:
1982, a Pens' writer claims Carlyle's defensive play hardly factored into his Norris win:
This one is also the season afterwards and only says his defense wasn't "outstanding" when he won the Norris and that he is struggling, I would assume moreso than the previous year, in the current season.

I think Carlyle's Norris win was as weak as the next guy, and we can see from the voting that it was very close. Almost a three way tie, in a way.

However, he just caught lightning in a bottle that year and had a great season on a very poor team.

I prefer to give him the credit that voters believed he was due than to tear him down as being undeserved long after the fact.

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Old
02-23-2012, 09:33 AM
  #356
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One more thing abou Carlyle...he led all d-men that year with 46 power play points. It helped that Pittsburgh was 2nd in PP opportunities that year with about 100 more than NYI (Potvin), Montreal (Robinson), or Hartford (Howe).

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02-23-2012, 09:40 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I like him, but probably not in a top-4 role either. He did get some scattered all-star votes, but very little. He wasn't even always their #1 defenseman based on TOI. Even in the MLD there are plenty of defensemen who have a string of years as a #1.

He is a legend to St. Louis - absolutely beloved there. And I think that overpowers his resume as a player. Not saying he's an MLD scrub... but probably best on a 3rd pairing.

You probably want more of a puckmover on the 2nd pairing with Gardiner anyway - ideally, at least.
I'm a little confused by this 70's. Gardiner was known to play with Dutton befire his NHL days and then Mantha who were both known as physical players.

Why a puck mover?

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02-23-2012, 09:45 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Apparently, all I heard was how Hainsworth didn't receive any Hart recognize etc.. etc...


I mentioned that a big reason because of this was because the Hart voting was looked upon differently then and he had guys like Morenz and Joliat on his team.
It wasn't just Hart voting though, it was also All-Star voting. Hainsworth beat Worters in All-Star voting once in six years and that was by one vote.

Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1931, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1932, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1933, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1934, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1935, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 5th in all-star voting in 1936, one vote behind Hainsworth.

Worters also did much better in the GM polling for the unofficial All-Star teams from 27-30.

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02-23-2012, 09:57 AM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
It wasn't just Hart voting though, it was also All-Star voting. Hainsworth beat Worters in All-Star voting once in six years and that was by one vote.

Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1931, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1932, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1933, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1934, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1935, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 5th in all-star voting in 1936, one vote behind Hainsworth.

Worters also did much better in the GM polling for the unofficial All-Star teams from 27-30.
I have never seen anything regarding these years (Which are important considering they were Hainsworths best years) and also wasn't in his 40's.

So we have Worters finishing 1 spot ahead of Hainsworth. In an ATD sense is that enough to make up for his lack of playoff experience, and Hainsworths retro Conn Smythe? (Which I have already gone through and clearly showed he was well deserving of this.

Sure i'll give Worters the NHL regular season edge, but in terms of overall career. It's very very close.

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02-23-2012, 10:31 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I have never seen anything regarding these years (Which are important considering they were Hainsworths best years) and also wasn't in his 40's.

So we have Worters finishing 1 spot ahead of Hainsworth. In an ATD sense is that enough to make up for his lack of playoff experience, and Hainsworths retro Conn Smythe? (Which I have already gone through and clearly showed he was well deserving of this.

Sure i'll give Worters the NHL regular season edge, but in terms of overall career. It's very very close.
You quoted and responded to the post where I quoted and linked to the article for the 1928 team. If you didn't read it I guess you don't know that Hainsworth finished 2nd in voting that year.

Quote:
For the second consecutive year, Roy Worters, wee goalie of the Pittsburgh Pirates, is placed in the all-star nets. Worters polled seven votes for first team and one for second.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HnMuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ntkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=43 83%2C1118873

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02-23-2012, 10:57 AM
  #361
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Thanks, but it really doesn't matter who I put on my team, they'll be "underwhelming"
I canít tell if this is persecution complex, or the acceptance that there arenít any really good 2nd pairing defensemen left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm a little confused by this 70's. Gardiner was known to play with Dutton befire his NHL days and then Mantha who were both known as physical players.

Why a puck mover?
Gardiner was an OK puck mover in real life from the sounds of things. He would have been the puck mover on his pair with Dutton. Based on anecdotes, I would assume Mantha carried the puck more often when he played with Gardiner.

In an all-time context I wouldnít say he is a great 2nd pairing puck mover. I wouldnít want him to be the primary guy. And heís got more than enough defensive skill to cover for an offensive guy with questionable defense (no need to point the available ones out to you, they are everywhere)

Thatís just my suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
You quoted and responded to the post where I quoted and linked to the article for the 1928 team. If you didn't read it I guess you don't know that Hainsworth finished 2nd in voting that year.



http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HnMuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ntkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=43 83%2C1118873
I never realized that article said Worters won the vote for the 2nd straight year. This corroborates his story even more.

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02-23-2012, 11:51 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Haven't you been a vehement critic of Rod Langway's Norrises? Most of the same people who criticize Langway's Norrises also criticize Carlyle's.
Based on a few things:
- watching him play probably 20-30 games
- the opinion of my old man
- the opinion of some players who played with and against Langway.

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02-23-2012, 12:01 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Based on a few things:
- watching him play probably 20-30 games
- the opinion of my old man
- the opinion of some players who played with and against Langway.
Personally, I think Paul Coffey should have won it in Langway's second Norris season, but I don't think my opinion carries more water than the composite opinions of the sportswriters in this case.

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02-23-2012, 12:46 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Personally, I think Paul Coffey should have won it in Langway's second Norris season, but I don't think my opinion carries more water than the composite opinions of the sportswriters in this case.
Well, it means more to you, but less to everyone else. Same with my opinion - it means a lot more to me than you

What about the opinion of a player who played with Langway?

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02-23-2012, 01:01 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
What about the opinion of a player who played with Langway?
Clearly less valuable than mine. I am a two-time ATD champion, you know.

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02-23-2012, 01:19 PM
  #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gardiner was an OK puck mover in real life from the sounds of things. He would have been the puck mover on his pair with Dutton.
The first time I drafted Dutton I kind of assumed he was a stay-at-home type. But after drafting him a couple times and putting in some research, he seems to me like a guy who rushed the puck fairly often.

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02-23-2012, 05:14 PM
  #367
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Jeez, look at the ****storm I started.

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02-23-2012, 05:22 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Jeez, look at the ****storm I started.
I think it's good when someone voices their opinion and it sparks a debate, you weren't trying to intentionally tell people that they have a weaker pairing than the one that is being discussed.

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02-23-2012, 07:41 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Better than Gardiner-Plager:

Stuart-Crawford
Mortson-Blake
Wentworth-Dutton(could argue even, but I think Wentworth-Dutton is better)
Lowe-Reardon
Boucher-Watson
Vasko-Patrick
Gerard-Heller
Ramsey-Desjardins
Goodfellow-Reise
Conacher-Housley
Stapleton-Harris
Patrick-Schoenfeld

Even compared to Gardiner-Plager:

Day-Stanowski
Hartsburg-Johnson
Ross-Goldham
Griffis-Hajt

Worse than Gardiner-Plager:

Beck-Boyle
Mohns-Carlyle
Talbot-Burrows
Davydov-Hollett
Pulford-Numminen
Gonchar-Harper
Hatcher-Duncan
Hall-Pratt
Neilson-Simpson
Ivanov-Ragulin

4 teams have not completed their 2nd pairings. I revise my statement, I think it's just slightly below average.
The defensive leader of one of the definitive defensive teams of a defensive era paired with a big two way defenceman who is one of only three defencemen in history to lead a major pro league in scoring is a below average second pairing?

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02-23-2012, 07:49 PM
  #370
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Thoughts on my first PP unit - lacking anything? Better options on my team for certain roles? Cyclone better served on the back end?

Kharlamov - Henry - Taylor
Howe - Reardon

Other options: MacKay, Bun Cook, Dillon, Siebert

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02-23-2012, 08:17 PM
  #371
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Thoughts on my first PP unit - lacking anything? Better options on my team for certain roles? Cyclone better served on the back end?

Kharlamov - Henry - Taylor
Howe - Reardon

Other options: MacKay, Bun Cook, Dillon, Siebert
I would say it's definately shy on muscle. Babe Siebert was a pretty dominant puckwinner, so maybe use him.

Slide Cyclone back to the point, so he can really jump-start your attack.

Just a few ideas...

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02-23-2012, 08:23 PM
  #372
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I think the point men are pretty weak. Howe was a great even strength puck mover, but not that impressive on the PP. I remember thinking Reardon's offense was pretty good, not great when I looked at it. I would definitely use one of your rovers back there.

Henry is extemely dangerous in front of the net, but Dreakmur does have a point - you aren't going to be winning many battles for pucks behind the net and in the deep corners with all your forwards so small. On the other hand, the puck control and movement between Taylor and Kharlamov would be incredible.

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02-23-2012, 08:28 PM
  #373
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Kharlamov-Henry-Siebert
Howe-Taylor (not sure of Taylor's handedness, these two can switch)

Is what I'd go. That has a little bit of everything.

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02-23-2012, 08:34 PM
  #374
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I'm just hesitant because Siebert will be getting first unit PK duties. I guess Ken Hodge is an option for muscle but I know he didn't really play the PP much in Boston.

I'll definitely move Taylor back in Reardon's place. Will probably have to sacrifice muscle and rely on skill and puck possession with Taylor bringing the puck up ice.

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02-23-2012, 08:53 PM
  #375
seventieslord
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I'm just hesitant because Siebert will be getting first unit PK duties. I guess Ken Hodge is an option for muscle but I know he didn't really play the PP much in Boston.

I'll definitely move Taylor back in Reardon's place. Will probably have to sacrifice muscle and rely on skill and puck possession with Taylor bringing the puck up ice.
Hodge got plenty of PP time (198 points, 1968-1977). it was Cashman (69) who didn't get much.

In the 1973-1977 seasons, his PP% (% of PPGF on ice for) was 88, 95, 75, 68, 62.

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