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Old
02-28-2012, 06:37 PM
  #551
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Amen to that
See? I said mark would be the first to tell you.

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02-28-2012, 09:48 PM
  #552
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If anyone is looking to give advice, I need some. I just typed out a big paragraph for anyone who's interested

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02-28-2012, 11:52 PM
  #553
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SO any ideas on what to do with my PP?

So far the things I know that will be happening will be:

-Krutov and Tkachuk splitting time in front of the net as equally as possible.

-Harvey and Ruotsaleinan being out for 2/3 of each PP, with Gerard and Harmon coming on more than likely for the last 1/3

-Middleton and Gilmour will be playing the half walls on the first unit. Roenick will be playing one of the half walls on the second unit. Still undecided on the 4th person: options include Keon or whoever I draft with a few upcoming picks, hopefully the person I draft with the upcoming picks.

Does anyone have any issues with this?

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02-28-2012, 11:58 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
If anyone is looking to give advice, I need some. I just typed out a big paragraph for anyone who's interested
I don't mind offering some input.

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02-29-2012, 09:33 AM
  #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
SO any ideas on what to do with my PP?

So far the things I know that will be happening will be:

-Krutov and Tkachuk splitting time in front of the net as equally as possible.

-Harvey and Ruotsaleinan being out for 2/3 of each PP, with Gerard and Harmon coming on more than likely for the last 1/3

-Middleton and Gilmour will be playing the half walls on the first unit. Roenick will be playing one of the half walls on the second unit. Still undecided on the 4th person: options include Keon or whoever I draft with a few upcoming picks, hopefully the person I draft with the upcoming picks.

Does anyone have any issues with this?
The only problem I have with it is that it just seems to lack firepower. But, with the way your team was designed, that's to be expected. You just don't have the pure offensive talent and scoring ability that most PPs are going to have.

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02-29-2012, 09:39 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
The only problem I have with it is that it just seems to lack firepower. But, with the way your team was designed, that's to be expected. You just don't have the pure offensive talent and scoring ability that most PPs are going to have.
Yeah....I really, really like my point men. Harvey and Ruotsaleinan I feel will be one of the best combos in the draft, and I like my net-front presence with Krutov and Tkachuk. But yeah the other two spots are going to be pretty weak I think.

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02-29-2012, 09:44 AM
  #557
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The chemistry of the lines works quite well, you have two solid net presences, and a good playmaker/sniper combo on the first line with Middleton and Gilmour. And you should be able to get a player at this point that fits chemistry-wise with Roenick, but might not be that good skill-wise compared to other PPs.

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02-29-2012, 09:48 AM
  #558
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I originally had someone targeted to finish off my third line that is no longer available. I initially intended to have Toppazzini on the fourth line to try and increase the offensive potential of my third line, but now, I'm not sure anymore.

What do folks think of this third line:

Don Marshall - Don Mckenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Worth it to have Toppazzini on there for checking purposes rather than a better offensive player?

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02-29-2012, 11:39 AM
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
I originally had someone targeted to finish off my third line that is no longer available. I initially intended to have Toppazzini on the fourth line to try and increase the offensive potential of my third line, but now, I'm not sure anymore.

What do folks think of this third line:

Don Marshall - Don Mckenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Worth it to have Toppazzini on there for checking purposes rather than a better offensive player?
I think the easy (and somewhat un-helpful) answer is that it depends on how you plan to use the line. Will you be looking to just roll it out there at even strength, or use it as a matchup against the opposition's scoring lines?

It's not like you need to make a decision now anyways. I would try to find another guy who brings some grit and offense at RW, and then either use him or Toppazzini there based on matchups. I haven't bothered checking who's in your division and all that, but there are a number of teams that don't have an elite scorer at LW anyhow (mine being one of them), and very few teams will have 2 bigtime scoring LWers.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-29-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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02-29-2012, 11:58 AM
  #560
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Looking for some thoughts on my PP units. This is what I have tentatively at the moment (very tentative regarding the second unit):

PP1: Leetch - Nicholls - Gretzky - Kurri - Northcott/Lafontaine/Watson/etc

PP2: Boucher - Cook - Lafontaine - Mogilny - ????


I'm really keen on having Nicholls and Gretzky together on the PP. Nicholls was an elite special-teams guy throughout his career, and obviously had tons of success playing on the PP with Gretzky in LA (they weren't regular linemates at even strength when Nicholls hit 150 pts). Scouting reports confirm that he worked very well on the PP with Leetch in NY as well. For those who aren't super familiar with Nicholls, he played point on the PP with at least four teams (LA, NY, NJ, SJ). Obviously Kurri is a no-brainer as well there. It's the 5th spot I'm unsure about. Should I go with a big physical net presence in Watson/Northcott/Brind'Amour, or another dynamic finesse player in Lafontaine?

I like the idea of keeping Lafontaine and Mogilny together on the second pairing, as they obviously have great chemistry and were deadly on the PP in their years together. But if I had Lafontaine on the top unit, it leaves me with a bit of a conundrum. I'm happy with Boucher and Cook on the back end there. The 5th spot may depend on who's left after the first unit is finished.

Thoughts?

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02-29-2012, 12:13 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I'm really keen on having Nicholls and Gretzky together on the PP. Nicholls was an elite special-teams guy throughout his career, and obviously had tons of success playing on the PP with Gretzky in LA
Did he play the point with Gretzky? I don't remember that but I could be wrong... and glancing at the spike in his PP goals with Gretzky I would assume not.

In that case he would not be nearly as effective as his 3 top 10s in powerplay goals would indicate when he is being used like this.. do you have any information on his PP points and when he played point?

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02-29-2012, 12:13 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Looking for some thoughts on my PP units. This is what I have tentatively at the moment (very tentative regarding the second unit):

PP1: Leetch - Nicholls - Gretzky - Kurri - Northcott/Lafontaine/Watson/etc

PP2: Boucher - Cook - Lafontaine - Mogilny - ????


I'm really keen on having Nicholls and Gretzky together on the PP. Nicholls was an elite special-teams guy throughout his career, and obviously had tons of success playing on the PP with Gretzky in LA (they weren't regular linemates at even strength when Nicholls hit 150 pts). Scouting reports confirm that he worked very well on the PP with Leetch in NY as well. For those who aren't super familiar with Nicholls, he played point on the PP with at least four teams (LA, NY, NJ, SJ). Obviously Kurri is a no-brainer as well there. It's the 5th spot I'm unsure about. Should I go with a big physical net presence in Watson/Northcott/Brind'Amour, or another dynamic finesse player in Lafontaine?

I like the idea of keeping Lafontaine and Mogilny together on the second pairing, as they obviously have great chemistry and were deadly on the PP in their years together. But if I had Lafontaine on the top unit, it leaves me with a bit of a conundrum. I'm happy with Boucher and Cook on the back end there. The 5th spot may depend on who's left after the first unit is finished.

Thoughts?
I like the idea of a net presence on the 1st unit and keeping Lafontaine and Mogilny together on the 2nd. If Brindamour is going to get a lot of PK time I don't think he should be on the 1st PP unit

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02-29-2012, 12:22 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Did he play the point with Gretzky? I don't remember that but I could be wrong... and glancing at the spike in his PP goals with Gretzky I would assume not.

In that case he would not be nearly as effect as his 3 top 10s in powerplay goals would indicate when he is being used like this..
I believe he and Gretzky actually played the point together at times in LA. I'm sure he'd get more goals down low in Kurri's spot, but I think he still makes a great PP threat from the point, as he was used there fairly often throughout his career because of his ability to distribute the puck. Nicholls had excellent hockey sense, and I think his PP chemistry with both Gretzky and Leetch will still be evident. While he did score 21 PP goals in 1989, that really wasn't as out of line with his career averages in terms of PP vs. ES scoring as you would imagine (it was just a lot more of both). And in the 1990 season he was actually scoring PP goals at a higher rate with NY than with LA. Nicholls was a lot more than just a triggerman on the PP, even when he was with Gretzky.

On a somewhat unrelated note: Did the NHL ever keep track of PP assists? It would be such a useful stat, but I can only ever seem to find goal stats.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-29-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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02-29-2012, 12:24 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I like the idea of a net presence on the 1st unit and keeping Lafontaine and Mogilny together on the 2nd. If Brindamour is going to get a lot of PK time I don't think he should be on the 1st PP unit
Yeah, that's my thinking as well.

Lafontaine would give that top unit even more puck skills, but it might be diminishing returns compared to the value he brings to the second unit with Mogilny.

And while Brind'Amour had as much stamina as anyone who ever played the game, I'd prefer to keep him on the 2nd unit or off the PP entirely, as he'll see a good amount of ES ice, and a ton of PK minutes.

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02-29-2012, 12:36 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
On a somewhat unrelated note: Did the NHL ever keep track of PP assists? It would be such a useful stat, but I can only ever seem to find goal stats.
NHL.com has them. Here's a link for LA in the 1988-89 season. For some reason they don't give the option of selecting certain years even though the data is there, so you have to change the year manually in the URL.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...scoringLeaders

1988-89 PP
Bernie Nicholls: 21g -28a - 49p
Wayne Gretzky: 11g - 42a - 53p

EDIT: It appears as if some forward was playing the point on the PP. One Dman has 24 PP pts and the next closest has only 8. I don't know if there's a way to tell if Nicholls was the one back there or not..could have been Dave Taylor.

EDIT 2: Make that 8 pts for the next closest Dman, not 4.


Last edited by Hawkey Town 18: 02-29-2012 at 12:50 PM.
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02-29-2012, 12:37 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I believe he and Gretzky actually played the point together at times in LA. I'm sure he'd get more goals down low in Kurri's spot, but I think he still makes a great PP threat from the point, as he was used there fairly often throughout his career because of his ability to distribute the puck.
Geez my memory must be failing me.

I don't remember Gretzky on the point anywhere.

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02-29-2012, 12:40 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I think the easy (and somewhat un-helpful) answer is that it depends on how you plan to use the line. Will you be looking to just roll it out there at even strength, or use it as a matchup against the opposition's scoring lines?

It's not like you need to make a decision now anyways. I would try to find another guy who brings some grit and offense at RW, and then either use him or Toppazzini there based on matchups. I haven't bothered checking who's in your division and all that, but there are a number of teams that don't have an elite scorer at LW anyhow (mine being one of them), and very few teams will have 2 bigtime scoring LWers.
I'm leaning towards my third line taking the tough match-ups, but I like the idea of being able to switch between Toppazzini and whichever other guy I grab depending on the situation.

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02-29-2012, 12:41 PM
  #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Geez my memory must be failing me.

I don't remember Gretzky on the point anywhere.
Yeah, I don't think it happened that often, but it did happen successfully at least once .

Quote:
Gretzky Gets Off to a King-Sized Start
Toronto Star - Oct 7, 1988

Playing on the point with Bernie Nicholls, the two exchanged several passes. When Nicholls changed the pattern by slipping a pass into the corner to Taylor...

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02-29-2012, 12:42 PM
  #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
I'm leaning towards my third line taking the tough match-ups, but I like the idea of being able to switch between Toppazzini and whichever other guy I grab depending on the situation.
Yeah, I think versatility is an important thing. As long as you can get another guy who you'd be comfortable with on the 3rd line, you should be fine.

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02-29-2012, 12:46 PM
  #570
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NHL.com has them. Here's a link for LA in the 1988-89 season. For some reason they don't give the option of selecting certain years even though the data is there, so you have to change the year manually in the URL.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...scoringLeaders

1988-89 PP
Bernie Nicholls: 21g -28a - 49p
Wayne Gretzky: 11g - 42a - 53p

EDIT: It appears as if some forward was playing the point on the PP. One Dman has 24 PP pts and the next closest has only 4. I don't know if there's a way to tell if Nicholls was the one back there or not..could have been Dave Taylor.
If we check a few years around this point on there, you can see his ratio changes in the years before and after Gretzky to what looks reasonable for playing point.. but I don't think he was playing point very much in LA when he scores 21 PP goals.

But if he wasn't then who was haha you're right there doesn't seem to be anyone else and I dunno about Taylor..

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02-29-2012, 12:55 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I think the easy (and somewhat un-helpful) answer is that it depends on how you plan to use the line. Will you be looking to just roll it out there at even strength, or use it as a matchup against the opposition's scoring lines?

It's not like you need to make a decision now anyways. I would try to find another guy who brings some grit and offense at RW, and then either use him or Toppazzini there based on matchups. I haven't bothered checking who's in your division and all that, but there are a number of teams that don't have an elite scorer at LW anyhow (mine being one of them), and very few teams will have 2 bigtime scoring LWers.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure none of the Soviet coaches were line matchers. Not sure about Tarasov specifically though.

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02-29-2012, 12:57 PM
  #572
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The Spreadsheet(TM) lists PP assists and adjusted PP assists

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02-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #573
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The Spreadsheet(TM) lists PP assists and adjusted PP assists
The Spreadsheet(TM)?

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02-29-2012, 01:01 PM
  #574
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If we check a few years around this point on there, you can see his ratio changes in the years before and after Gretzky to what looks reasonable for playing point.. but I don't think he was playing point very much in LA when he scores 21 PP goals.

But if he wasn't then who was haha you're right there doesn't seem to be anyone else and I dunno about Taylor..
I have no idea how much point he played in 1989, if any. He actually had more PP points in the 1990 season that he split between LA and NY, than in his 150 point season in 1989. I found an article from the time of his trade to NY in 1990 that gives the impression that he did play the point fairly often in LA though (possibly in the 1990 season where his PP goals were much lower than in 1989). Robitaille and Tonelli saw huge spikes in their PP goals in 1990 compared to 1989, which would lead me to believe they were both playing big PP minutes at forward with Gretzky.

Quote:
Rangers Mull Nicholls's Role
New York Times, Jan 22 1990

He will, of course, be the Rangers' top center. He is also capable of playing a number of other positions and large segments of individual games. He can, if double-shifted late in a game, play right wing. And whether on the point or elsewhere, he can lend imagination to the Rangers' power play, which has been moribund for much of the season.
I believe he was a very good point-man when he did play there in his career, and I think this success came as more of a puck-distributor than a forward who blasts shots from the blueline ala Ovechkin or Kovalchuk. Scouting reports in his prime rave about his anticipation and puck-sense on the powerplay, and his ability to see the big picture in the offensive zone, so to speak.

If my only other right-handed option down low was an aging Dave Taylor, I'd be using Nicholls down there too . But having Kurri there gives me the option to use Nicholls in a position where he was successful anyhow, while still putting to use the anticipation and vision that made him successful on the PP with Gretzky and Leetch.

I think that's an important point to remember in general in this draft: just because a guy was used in a certain capacity, it doesn't mean that's the only role he could excel at. In the real-life NHL depth plays a major role regarding where guys play, particularly on special teams.

Also...Bernie Nicholls scored 101 non-PP points in 1989 . Granted, with good wingers and Gretzky occupying the top checkers. But still, good on him. The "Gretzky's sidekick" label he's often given is really unfair when looking at the numbers from that year.


And many thanks to HawkeyTown for that link, I had no idea the NHL had those stats going back that far. It would be great if hockey-reference.com would start displaying PP assist and point totals.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-29-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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02-29-2012, 01:12 PM
  #575
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I believe he was a very good point-man when he did play there in his career, and I think this success came as more of a puck-distributor than a forward who blasts shots from the blueline ala Ovechkin or Kovalchuk. Scouting reports in his prime rave about his anticipation and puck-sense on the powerplay, and his ability to see the big picture in the offensive zone, so to speak.

If my only other right-handed option down low was an aging Dave Taylor, I'd be using Nicholls down there too . But having Kurri there gives me the option to use Nicholls in a position where he was successful anyhow, while still putting to use the anticipation and vision that made him successful on the PP with Gretzky and Leetch.
Bernie definitely had great anticipation and from the numbers it sure looks like he played a fair bit of point pre and post Gretzky on the PP.

The only thing I wonder is how he compares to an average 1st liner PP point man in this.. I would imagine he does ok but isn't a standout.

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Also...Bernie Nicholls scored 101 ES/SH points in 1989
Yeah, it was quite a season by him that is for sure. Lemieux/Yzerman/Gretzky were 102/101/100 in ES points but Lemieux just pulls away with 79 PP points.

Pittsburgh made up for a lot of lacking ES play with PP goals those seasons.

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