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ATD 2012 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
02-14-2012, 12:41 AM
  #151
monster_bertuzzi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Any thoughts on my latest roster?

Firsov - Trottier - Broadbent
Tikkanen - Malkin - Bure

Pronger - Zubov
Davydov - Hollett


Gonna pick a goalie soon, honest.

Aside from the slight disadvantage I'll have in net, I think I've made up for it by putting together a fairly well-rounded team so far.
A much improved group of skaters for you so far. Loving the Russian content, this team will leave opponents marvelling at it's skill level on many nights. But don't kid yourself, if you run into a team with a top 10 goalie, it's not only a marginal disadvantage.

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02-14-2012, 05:22 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
A much improved group of skaters for you so far. Loving the Russian content, this team will leave opponents marvelling at it's skill level on many nights. But don't kid yourself, if you run into a team with a top 10 goalie, it's not only a marginal disadvantage.
Yeah, certainly better than last year's effort.

And I'm hopeful that I can still select a goalie that will at least make for a competitive battle up against any other pre-goalied team.

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02-14-2012, 09:55 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
A much improved group of skaters for you so far. Loving the Russian content, this team will leave opponents marvelling at it's skill level on many nights. But don't kid yourself, if you run into a team with a top 10 goalie, it's not only a marginal disadvantage.
This guy who has no goalie disagrees.

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I wish I was in your division too...My top 2 lines plus top pairing would skate circles around your team. You could have Roy and Plante in nets and it wouldn't matter.

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02-14-2012, 10:06 AM
  #154
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
A much improved group of skaters for you so far. Loving the Russian content, this team will leave opponents marvelling at it's skill level on many nights. But don't kid yourself, if you run into a team with a top 10 goalie, it's not only a marginal disadvantage.
Agreed, but that should be top-7. After that 7th guy goes, the next dozen goalies are similar.

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This guy who has no goalie disagrees.
He should watch the Maple Leafs this season....

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Old
02-14-2012, 10:14 AM
  #155
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He should watch the Maple Leafs this season....
Or the Blackhawks.

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02-14-2012, 10:23 AM
  #156
Dreakmur
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Or the Blackhawks.
Oh yeah....no ****

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Old
02-14-2012, 11:25 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Agreed, but that should be top-7. After that 7th guy goes, the next dozen goalies are similar.
The next dozen?! At this point, goalies 8 and 9 are pretty clearly Brimsek and Benedict, though I agree it flattens out a bit after that.

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02-14-2012, 11:29 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
This guy who has no goalie disagrees.
Ya have you ever been a part of an ATD before? The team with CuJo made it to the Finals last year. (As they should have)

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02-14-2012, 12:02 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The next dozen?! At this point, goalies 8 and 9 are pretty clearly Brimsek and Benedict, though I agree it flattens out a bit after that.
Tretiak?

Not that I wouldn't listen to an argument with him lower.

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02-14-2012, 12:05 PM
  #160
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The next dozen?! At this point, goalies 8 and 9 are pretty clearly Brimsek and Benedict, though I agree it flattens out a bit after that.
Perhaps dozen was a bit too many, but there is definately a glut of mid-range goalis. Benedict, Brimsek, Tretiak, Bower, Broda, Durnan, Belfour, Gadiner, and Durnan.

Then you have Vezina, Worters, Lehman, Esposito, and Holocek, who are close, but not quite in that group.


Considering it's not even clear that Benedict was better than Vezina, I find it tough to say he's easily a top-9 goalie.

Brimsek is definately one of the better guys in that group, but that gap is relatively small.

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Old
02-14-2012, 12:21 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Tretiak?

Not that I wouldn't listen to an argument with him lower.
I am not a fan of where he normally gets taken. Too many unknowns, and too many glaring mistakes in the games we have seen. People talk about Tretiak with a kind of awe which does not jive with what we actually saw on the ice on many occasions. All of the goalies looked bad in '72, so I won't fault him too much for that, but he was hideous in '80, and got embarrassed in 1976 - getting shelled by Poland and doing little to redeem himself through the rest of the tourney.

I don't think Tretiak was a bad goalie by any means, but he definitely has his critics, and I think his status in the ATD is based on hot air moreso than any other top 100 player. There is just a sort of wierd consensus that he belongs in a certain spot, and so he goes there draft after draft. I would personally draft him in the Gardiner - Belfour range. He is not a sure thing in my mind.

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02-14-2012, 12:28 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Brimsek is definately one of the better guys in that group, but that gap is relatively small.
I think the fap between Brimsek and Brodeur, insofar as it exists, is smaller than the gap between Brimsek and "the pack". Based on what I've recently read about Brimsek, I believe he may have peaked higher than Brodeur, and the longevity comparison has to take into account Brimsek's lost prime seasons and the fact that even eight seasons was outstanding longevity for his era. His record for all-star team appearances by a goalie stood until Glenn Hall came along.

I think people have undervalued Brimsek around here because of all the 2nd team appearances, which are deceptively good given the circumstances of his era. During Frank Brimsek's career, the winner of the Vezina trophy was the first team all-star every single season. That fact, alone, is extremely dubious, but when we combine it with multiple pieces of clear evidence that Brimsek was at times better than the Vezina winners...well, I think he starts to look more like a superstar and less like "that guy with a bunch of 2nd team all-star nods".

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02-14-2012, 12:29 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I am not a fan of where he normally gets taken. Too many unknowns, and too many glaring mistakes in the games we have seen. People talk about Tretiak with a kind of awe which does not jive with what we actually saw on the ice on many occasions. All of the goalies looked bad in '72, so I won't fault him too much for that, but he was hideous in '80, and got embarrassed in 1976 - getting shelled by Poland and doing little to redeem himself through the rest of the tourney.

I don't think Tretiak was a bad goalie by any means, but he definitely has his critics, and I think his status in the ATD is based on hot air moreso than any other top 100 player. There is just a sort of wierd consensus that he belongs in a certain spot, and so he goes there draft after draft. I would personally draft him in the Gardiner - Belfour range. He is not a sure thing in my mind.
maybe.

the flipside is the ridiculous number of times he was ranked highly in soviet all-star voting, including winning it. The league wasn't great beyond the top echelon but that top echelon is who he was competing against so it's tough to say he wasn't at least a better/more significant/more valuable player than that crowd.

If he drops then it would follow that they should drop, too. And maybe they should, I don't know.

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02-14-2012, 12:30 PM
  #164
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I read that Pulford was capable of both C/Lw positioning. Will it be ok if I insert him in the 3rd line C spot?

the only reason why I say this is because seventies mentioned he was a LW in the other thread.


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Old
02-14-2012, 12:31 PM
  #165
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I read that Pulford was capable of both C/Lw positioning. Will it be ok if I insert him in the 3rd line C spot?
I'm not sure how accurate hockey-reference is for positions.. but he is listed at C in a few seasons on there.. so I don't see why not.

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02-14-2012, 12:37 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I'm not sure how accurate hockey-reference is for positions.. but he is listed at C in a few seasons on there.. so I don't see why not.
Pulford played LW quite a bit. He actually played LW the season he was awarded his Retro Conn Smythe.

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Old
02-14-2012, 12:39 PM
  #167
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maybe.

the flipside is the ridiculous number of times he was ranked highly in soviet all-star voting, including winning it.
You mean the MVP voting, right?

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02-14-2012, 12:40 PM
  #168
markrander87
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Pulford played LW quite a bit. He actually played LW the season he was awarded his Retro Conn Smythe.
I've read that he was responsible for checking both Howe and Hull as well as Richard. So by the sounds of things he can play any position but is most comfortable at C or LW?

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02-14-2012, 12:42 PM
  #169
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I've read that he was responsible for checking both Howe and Hull as well as Richard. So by the sounds of things he can play any position but is most comfortable at C or LW?
I'd say only LW or C.

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02-14-2012, 12:45 PM
  #170
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how often did the goalie on the team with the second lowest GA total make the second all-star team? If there is as strong a correlation between 2nd and 2nd, as there is with 1st and 1st, then using all-star teams to judge goalies from back then starts to look like it's only marginally better than using Vezinas (and Vezinas are jennings trophies so that's crap)

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02-14-2012, 12:45 PM
  #171
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You mean the MVP voting, right?
yes, sorry.


and as for Pulford, I think he's equally comfortable at either LW or C.

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Old
02-14-2012, 12:59 PM
  #172
markrander87
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

and as for Pulford, I think he's equally comfortable at either LW or C.
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I'd say only LW or C.

Great thanks.

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Old
02-14-2012, 01:15 PM
  #173
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
how often did the goalie on the team with the second lowest GA total make the second all-star team? If there is as strong a correlation between 2nd and 2nd, as there is with 1st and 1st, then using all-star teams to judge goalies from back then starts to look like it's only marginally better than using Vezinas (and Vezinas are jennings trophies so that's crap)
Just quickly looking around 50-68 it seemed fairly mixed. Hall bucks the trend a few times picking up 1st or 2nd ASTs when ranked lesser in GAA. Particularly in '66 Hall gets 1st AST being ranked 4th in GAA behind GAA leader Bower and Gump Worsley who got 2nd AST with the 2nd best GAA. Bower has two Vezinas but just one 1st AST and nothing else which seems strange.

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02-14-2012, 01:19 PM
  #174
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Just quickly looking around 50-68 it seemed fairly mixed. Hall bucks the trend a few times picking up 1st or 2nd ASTs when ranked lesser in GAA. Particularly in '66 Hall gets 1st AST being ranked 4th in GAA behind GAA leader Bower and Gump Worsley who got 2nd AST with the 2nd best GAA. Bower has two Vezinas but just one 1st AST and nothing else which seems strange.
Brimsek has 6 2nd team all-stars. 3 of those, Boston was 2nd in GAA. The others, Boston was 3rd in GAA. It appears that GAA had a significant impact on All-Star voting.

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02-14-2012, 01:28 PM
  #175
Rob Scuderi
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Brimsek has 6 2nd team all-stars. 3 of those, Boston was 2nd in GAA. The others, Boston was 3rd in GAA. It appears that GAA had a significant impact on All-Star voting.
I'm not suggesting it doesn't have an impact. I'm suggesting it's not nearly as direct as the Vezina to 1st AST which seemed to be absolute, and isn't.

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