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Old
10-20-2004, 11:42 AM
  #1
pld459666
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Gut feeling on this

but I think that the driving force behind getting a deal done this time around are going to be the lower end players.

Think about it.

The group represents the vast majority on members of the NHLPA and if their interests are not being represented in this battle, then they might as well make their presence felt.


For me personally, since I have ABSOLUTELY no alliegence to any player I would look forward to games being played with the marginal guys and could do without the fat cat players that populate alot of teams in the league.

Let the marginal players play and continue to go about your normal year to year activities and the natural course of growth will dictate that stars will emerge, just as they have in the past and will always do so in the future. Before you know it, the league will once again be rich with talent evenly spread out across the league and the Franchises that draft well and manage player developement and finances well will be the ones that succeed. The one that are wanting in those areas will nott and that's how it should be.

Just get a deal done already.

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10-20-2004, 11:46 AM
  #2
True Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
Let the marginal players play and continue to go about your normal year to year activities and the natural course of growth will dictate that stars will emerge, just as they have in the past and will always do so in the future.
I disagree. How long do you think that the NHL can survive playing the likes of Jeff Toms on the top 2 lines? If Detroit's first line suddenly consists of Mcarty & Maltby, how far do you think that they will go? And remember, those that cross the picket lines are forever branded as such and their professional lives are hell. Rick Reed crossed the line in baseball. Since then, he said that he would never do so again.
If they cancel the season and then come back next year with players that used to be 3rd/4th liners as top liners, the arenas will be empty and the ratings will be even more non-existent. Think of it. Dave Karpa and Igor Ulanov being touted as the top defensive pair of some poor team.

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10-20-2004, 11:52 AM
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most people aren't like that though...and personally I don't want to watch a league of fringe players just because it ends a lockout. The NHL needs star player with lots of talent...it's actually the fringe players who have made this league as crappy as it is lately.

star players are paid too much but in the end it's the low end guys who still make $1 mill that really have screwed the league over. guys who should be making 100k playing on the 4th line get nearly a million dollars these days.

but at any rate...i'm sure the low end guys will put some pressure on but I'm not ready to accept a league of crap. Most fans probably aren't either, and that's crucial for the NHL. It's a fine line between not letting the lockout go too long so no one cares about the NHL anymore, and rushing to some kind of compromise that makes things worse...and your casual fans aren't gonna tune in to the see the dan lacouture's of the league be stars

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10-20-2004, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
How long do you think that the NHL can survive playing the likes of Jeff Toms on the top 2 lines?
Wouldn't that basically be the AHL?

I keep wondering, if the 'Pack were to play a game at MSG, what type of crowd would they draw? That would give you some indication of the interest in 2nd tier professional hockey.

I'm not really sure what you're proposing PLD. Are you saying guys making less than $X should be allowed to cross the picket line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Think of it. Dave Karpa and Igor Ulanov being touted as the top defensive pair of some poor team.
Think of it? We've lived it.

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10-20-2004, 12:01 PM
  #5
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yeah i was thinking if we're gonna have the NHL play with a bunch of scrubs, we might as well just can the NHL and promote the crap out of the AHL. it'd be more entertaining

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10-20-2004, 12:10 PM
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Not sure...

the lower tier guys have much of a voice. Who really cares if Dale Purinton is whining and wants to play. It's the 'stars' that run the league and are who people come to see. Further, if the league gets their way, marginal players would be making a good deal less than they are now, and young stars who haven't hit pay dirt as of yet and may be dreaming of that $7-10 million per year contract can kiss that goodbye, for sure (both are likely gone, but the NHLPA is trying to make it so it hits the players a bit softer).

As for watching marginal players...you're not going to get much sponsorship, nor will you get much attendance, for b-level and below players. I wouldn't want to watch guys who often have difficulty skating, and actually pay admission, on a nightly basis. I watch the 'Pack because it's a chance to see some of the younger Rangers. I wouldn't make it a habit watching AHL hockey if it were available.

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10-20-2004, 12:26 PM
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The problem with this is that only the most ardent of the die-hard fans are going to pay NHL prices to see an AHL product. And you can say that the owners would have to lower ticket prices to AHL levels to compensate, but the AHL works on lower ticket prices because the players get paid an AHL salary. But if you lower salaries to AHL levels (basically making the minimum salary 10-20% of what is now) would even the McCarty's and the Maltby's come back?

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Old
10-20-2004, 01:27 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
As for watching marginal players...you're not going to get much sponsorship, nor will you get much attendance, for b-level and below players. I wouldn't want to watch guys who often have difficulty skating, and actually pay admission, on a nightly basis. I watch the 'Pack because it's a chance to see some of the younger Rangers. I wouldn't make it a habit watching AHL hockey if it were available.
Right now, the AHL product contains a lot of talented young players who could probably be making a contribution at the NHL level. There's also a handful of bonafide NHL'ers populating the league. What impact do guys like Joni Pitkanen or Dean McAmmond have on the overall quality of play? I's say it's a lot higher. Not only that, but without NHL teams promoting the AHL's best performers, that quality remains high throughout the season.

This ain't your father's AHL Fletch and I think if we were in the same position as Flyers' fans are, we'd happily cross the street and part with $10-$15 to see our affiliate play. Star-studded events attended by 18,000 people? No, but it's not the Wednesday night men's league at your local rink either. And as far as I can tell, the AHL product only stands to get better as the lockout rambles on.

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10-20-2004, 02:04 PM
  #9
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Mj..

no doubt that today's AHL (in this lockout era) is better than yesterday's, but still, the level of competition doesn't compare to the NHL, obviously. By you naming a guy like McAmmond illustrates that point - a third/fourth liner who's going to bring up the level of play in a league.

And yeah, I would walk across the street to pay $15-20 to see an AHL game if at the Garden a few times a year, but that's me and you and not Joe Mainstream, and that itself doesn't support a league, an arena, and cable channels (which is evidenced by the fact that we won't be seeing 70 Wolfpack games on MSG).

Perhaps this is what's needed - no season this year. An impasse declared and scabs playing next season. Franchises realizing that they're worse-off with $5 million payrolls than $50 million payrolls as a result of little to no TV revenues and paltry attendences to games paying minimum dollar. Certain franchises folding because they cannot continue to sustain the losses, as much as the NHL chooses to help. And there we have contraction and NHL players in 2006-2007 with Bettman starting of the XHL league in Mosambique, the new hotbed town for hockey.

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10-20-2004, 02:31 PM
  #10
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Hey Fletch

Dale Purinton is the Ranger representative to the PA, I really doubt he'd cross a picket line. Although I can imagine him dishing out hits on 8th Ave to anyone who dares to try! :lol

I did see that Paul Healey is willing to be a scab though. Some team somewhere has 2/3 of top line going with him and Jeff.

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10-20-2004, 04:52 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
I did see that Paul Healey is willing to be a scab though. .
thats what this world is coming to,not only in the NHL but the world of blue collar labor, its so sad.

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Old
10-21-2004, 06:08 AM
  #12
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The NHL started with meek beginnings

and if the league has to start all over again with half on the current NHLPA popluation then I don't think that the future will be bad at all.

The immediate future may be what any new league experiences in terms of growing pains, but it is the NHL and if it has to continue without today's current stars then I'm all for it.

The future stars will make this league great again, just because we start out with 2nd and 3rd line players populating the top lines throughout the league doesn't mean it will be that way forever.

Additionally, it's not the marginal players have made the game boring, it's the fact that there were to many of them is such a short period of time.

The league expanded 9 team in 6 years, that's a total of 180+ marginal players spread out over 30 teams. The influx was to great.

As for declaring an impasse, at this point I don't think that the league has a leg to stand on in making that claim for a few reasons. The first being that they have yet to respond to the NHLPA's last offer, regardless of what many of you think, it is the league that wants a new deal and they are the ones that have called for the lockout, it is the LEAGUE that has a responsibility to respond to any an all offers, not the other way around. Second, the comment made by the Atlanta Owner about doing exactly this could be the beginning of the NHLPA's case being made for them in terms of defending against a possible Impasse by saying that this is what they had planned all along. Negotiations have to be done in good faith and when you start planning for replacement players now while this season is still salvagable there's some serious concerns about the League's true intentions. Do they really want a fair deal? Or do they want to break a Union and forcing them to work under conditions that were not agreeable to by that union?

The League and the owners have to be very careful about what they say, because the ramifications are heavier if they speak out of the side of their mouths and all ti takes is something like what the Atlanta owner said for the monkey wrench to ruin the leagues plan.

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10-21-2004, 08:29 AM
  #13
Melrose_Jr.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
no doubt that today's AHL (in this lockout era) is better than yesterday's, but still, the level of competition doesn't compare to the NHL, obviously. By you naming a guy like McAmmond illustrates that point.
Well, any level of competition is better than a league that isn't active. How will their quality levels compare next year when fans in Philly are faced with Flyers replacement players on side of the parking lot and the Phantoms featuring Sharp, Pitkanen, Umberger et al on the other? That seems like a pretty easy choice to me.

Dean McAmmond isn't a star obviously, but he brings name recongnition for the less fanatical fan. If the AHL is going to attract people who don't follow NHL prospects the way we do, they're going to have to sell names that the average fan would recognize, at least for a while. The longer this thing drags on, the more players are going to follow McAmmond's lead and say, "Eff this, I'm going to play hockey".

It also seems feasible that the AHL could be the rebirth of hockey if they really capitalize on the sitatuation. Am I crazy to think that they represent a serious threat to the future of Bettman's NHL?

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10-21-2004, 08:49 AM
  #14
Fletch
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Melrose...

no doubt that the lockout can help a 'grassroots'-type program for the AHL if they market this thing correctly, but of course marketing is the key. I do agree getting guys like McAmmond, et al, is good for the AHL's 'face' and could help bring other players and fans to the arena. But I think the original point was that of replacement players (I think at least) and I believe my point is that is something that would be hugely unsuccessful - you may get more people going to arena football than that, and you ain't getting NHL ticket prices, obviously, and the sponsorship just wouldn't be there (as it isn't really there for the AHL currently). Can't put an NHL tag with an AHL product and expect success.

Again, I totally forget the point of our posts as we've either gone off on a tangent, my mind is lost, or a combination of the two, but I think that's my point, and I'm stickin' to it.

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10-21-2004, 09:05 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
and if the league has to start all over again with half on the current NHLPA popluation then I don't think that the future will be bad at all.

The immediate future may be what any new league experiences in terms of growing pains, but it is the NHL and if it has to continue without today's current stars then I'm all for it.

The future stars will make this league great again, just because we start out with 2nd and 3rd line players populating the top lines throughout the league doesn't mean it will be that way forever.
The problem with that is that it is not 40-50 years ago, when new leagues could survive. By the time the NHL established new stars, 5 or 6 years would go by. Within that time, the product would be pretty fringe-like. By the time that the NHL had some marketable talent again, hockey would be long dead and buried in the USA.

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