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Contradictions regarding popular HF Board arguments

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Old
01-30-2012, 11:27 PM
  #1
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Contradictions regarding popular HF Board arguments

Has anyone else noticed how many of our debates both have great opposing beliefs, which fans usually use both ways

For example, the argument of sheltered minutes for a player and point production. You can argue that they play against easier opponents, so they should score more against weaker defence. But TOI is always a big stat for point production as well, so both arguments make very fair points. I'm sure there have been fans that have argued for both sides (contradicting themselves) to favour their teams

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01-30-2012, 11:30 PM
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MassiveHomer
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Why would you bother arguing, when you can simply assert that you are correct and inform your opposite number that they are ignorant?

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Old
01-30-2012, 11:34 PM
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DuckJet
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Perry was only good cause of Getzlaf, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Getzlaf was only 8th in PPG cause of Perry, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Ryan only hit 30+ goals cause of Getzlaf, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Selanne only got 80 points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Visnovsky and Fowler
Visnovsky only led all dmen in points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne, and Fowler
Fowler only had 40 points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne, and Visnovsky.

According to HF, none of those 6 players were good as their points implied because they had 5 other guys who weren't really good. But by some magic they all had great numbers. Anything to discount them. So annoying.

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Old
01-30-2012, 11:38 PM
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This screams Brodeur and system back and forth drivel.

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Old
01-30-2012, 11:40 PM
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Going along with the players thing...

Thomas is only good because of Chara
Chara is only good because of Thomas

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Old
01-30-2012, 11:40 PM
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This one relates to Kessel, its not relevent anymore, but during his first season in Toronto it was

"Kessel sucks. He can only score with an elite centre feeding him sweet assists (Savard)"

Kessel goes and scores a bunch of goals

"Well, he only scored them because SOMEBODY has to score goals on a bad team. Its inevitable".

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Old
01-30-2012, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
This one relates to Kessel, its not relevent anymore, but during his first season in Toronto it was

"Kessel sucks. He can only score with an elite centre feeding him sweet assists (Savard)"

Kessel goes and scores a bunch of goals

"Well, he only scored them because SOMEBODY has to score goals on a bad team. Its inevitable".
In all fairness, before this season, Kessel's production was mediocre by the standards applied to him by many at the time of the trade. And technically, both can be true.

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Old
01-31-2012, 12:03 AM
  #8
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Fan of Team X drops into thread on Team Y's board: "LOL you guys are so obsessed with us, you're still talking about us six months after the series".

Team Y fan: "LOL if you're so "over us" what are you doing over here?".

(Not sure I'm doing this right)

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01-31-2012, 12:04 AM
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Pittsburgh intentionally tanked to get Crosby

meanwhile.....

Pittsburgh had the draft rigged in their favor to get Crosby


Truth : Pittsburgh sucked because there were no funds after overpaying players like Mario and Jagr.

Truth : Penguins were a bottom 3 teams for 3 years before Sid and were 1 of 4 teams that had a high chance at getting him.

Furthermore, if it was rigged for Pittsburgh, explain how a team with a bad chance at Sid, the Montreal Canadiens, got a top 5 pick?

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01-31-2012, 12:19 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylonus View Post
Pittsburgh intentionally tanked to get Crosby

meanwhile.....

Pittsburgh had the draft rigged in their favor to get Crosby


Truth : Pittsburgh sucked because there were no funds after overpaying players like Mario and Jagr.

Truth : Penguins were a bottom 3 teams for 3 years before Sid and were 1 of 4 teams that had a high chance at getting him.

Furthermore, if it was rigged for Pittsburgh, explain how a team with a bad chance at Sid, the Montreal Canadiens, got a top 5 pick?
Didn't he use that money to buy the team?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone for your jar View Post
Fan of Team X drops into thread on Team Y's board: "LOL you guys are so obsessed with us, you're still talking about us six months after the series".

Team Y fan: "LOL if you're so "over us" what are you doing over here?".

(Not sure I'm doing this right)
I see what you did there.

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Old
01-31-2012, 12:26 AM
  #11
Big McLargehuge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylonus View Post
Pittsburgh intentionally tanked to get Crosby

meanwhile.....

Pittsburgh had the draft rigged in their favor to get Crosby


Truth : Pittsburgh sucked because there were no funds after overpaying players like Mario and Jagr.

Truth : Penguins were a bottom 3 teams for 3 years before Sid and were 1 of 4 teams that had a high chance at getting him.

Furthermore, if it was rigged for Pittsburgh, explain how a team with a bad chance at Sid, the Montreal Canadiens, got a top 5 pick?
Montreal, a team with only one ball in the lottery, picked 5th overall...meanwhile the largest market in the league and a team/city in fairly desperate need of revival had just as many balls in the lottery as Pittsburgh...if the draft was to be fixed it would be the 1985 NBA Draft all over again...not one that gave the top 2 picks to the potentially moving Penguins and the unknown Mighty Ducks...while giving the Rangers three lottery balls and yet still not picking until 16th.

Someone had to win the lottery that year, and whoever won it would have the conspiracy going around...the fact remains the Penguins had a 6.2% chance of winning that lottery, which tied them with three other teams and above everyone else to land that pick...and they did...thanks to the city's place in the alphabet (the numbered balls were ranked first by how many lottery balls a team had and then by the city's alphabetical orientation...Buffalo, Columbus, and the NY Rangers also had 3 lottery balls, but as Pittsburgh was the last of those alphabetically the Penguins got lottery balls 10, 11, and 12. The winning lottery ball was #12. Had the Penguins won the lottery before (it remains completely idiotic to me to think that any league conspiracy in favor of the Penguins would have them finishing last in 2003-04 and not picking first in that draft with generational talent Alexander Ovechkin available...Malkin grew to be a hell of a consolation prize, but he was an unknown until 7-8 months before the draft actually happened...even then, Ovechkin was seen as a generational prospect and Malkin was the super-raw prospect that could rival Ovechkin down the line). Had the Penguins had won the 2004 lottery, or at least retianed the pick via someone outside the top 5 winning the draft, then Crosby would be an Atlanta Thrasher right now and Winnipeg would still be looking for a team (as I said, the picks went first by amount of lottery balls and then by alphabetics...had the Penguins won that lottery they'd have 2, and the extra lottery ball would have gone towards Washington...meaning the there'd only be three teams with 3 lottery balls (Buffalo, Columbus, NY Rangers) and everyone else would move up alphabetically...Anaheim would take over the Penguins 10th and 11th balls, and Atlanta the 12th...the 12th won the lottery, meaning Sid would be a Thrasher.

Bah.

The hilarious thing was being around these boards before that lottery draft happened and how certain Rangers fans were that they'd get the pick and how completely fair it would be...and when they wound up with the 16th pick they almost all abandoned the boards.


erm...to fit with the thread...the Penguins are only good because the league fixed results for them; yet the best player in the league today became a Penguin because we lost a draft lottery despite being dead last in the year all season (yet only finishing last by one point, thanks to a having the 2nd most points in the league over the final month and a half of the season and Chicago and Washington somehow failing to remember how hockey was played the last two weeks...yet we're the ones that get blamed for tanking...).

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Last edited by Big McLargehuge: 01-31-2012 at 12:40 AM.
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Old
01-31-2012, 12:35 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Perry was only good cause of Getzlaf, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Getzlaf was only 8th in PPG cause of Perry, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Ryan only hit 30+ goals cause of Getzlaf, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Selanne only got 80 points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Visnovsky and Fowler
Visnovsky only led all dmen in points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne, and Fowler
Fowler only had 40 points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne, and Visnovsky.

According to HF, none of those 6 players were good as their points implied because they had 5 other guys who weren't really good. But by some magic they all had great numbers. Anything to discount them. So annoying.
People are very fond of using the same progression with the Canucks. Individually, every player is terrible yet somehow the team itself manages to make their numbers great.

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Old
01-31-2012, 12:37 AM
  #13
obey86
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Lidstrom isn't very good anymore.
The Wings will crumble when Lidstrom retires.

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01-31-2012, 12:39 AM
  #14
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1) Luongo sucks because of his "lack" of playoff success.
2) Same poster then lists numerous goalies with similar/worse playoff numbers who haven't even reached the Finals.


Last edited by chopkins: 01-31-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Old
01-31-2012, 12:41 AM
  #15
DuckJet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
People are very fond of using the same progression with the Canucks. Individually, every player is terrible yet somehow the team itself manages to make their numbers great.
Not trying to flame anyone. But the prime example of this was the Sedin vs Perry pre-Award thread.

I think maybe 30 different Canuck fans said that Perry's production wouldn't be nearly as high if he didn't have Getzlaf, Ryan, Visnovsky, Selanne, and Fowler.

As though Daniel Sedin got no help from his teammates. Especially his brother. And when I pointed how hypocritical they were being by using this point, they basically said I know nothing about hockey.

And that's another thing I hate about HF arguments. God forbid I make a legitimate argument that is a slight against someonelse's team because as a fan of a Californian team, I must not know anything about hockey.

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01-31-2012, 12:41 AM
  #16
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But worst of all are threads where fans pile on with overblown persecution complexes instead of discussing what the OP intended

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01-31-2012, 12:43 AM
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This is very true.

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01-31-2012, 12:45 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Perry was only good cause of Getzlaf, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Getzlaf was only 8th in PPG cause of Perry, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Ryan only hit 30+ goals cause of Getzlaf, Ryan, Selanne, Visnovsky, and Fowler
Selanne only got 80 points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Visnovsky and Fowler
Visnovsky only led all dmen in points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne, and Fowler
Fowler only had 40 points cause of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne, and Visnovsky.

According to HF, none of those 6 players were good as their points implied because they had 5 other guys who weren't really good. But by some magic they all had great numbers. Anything to discount them. So annoying.

DuckJet only writes post because of Getzlaf,Perry,Ryan,Selanne,Visnovsky and Flower.

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01-31-2012, 12:50 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Awesome View Post
DuckJet only writes post because of Getzlaf,Perry,Ryan,Selanne,Visnovsky and Flower.


You sir have won the internets...well maybe not...you sir have won HFboards...well maybe not...you sir have won this thread...well maybe not...you sir have won my laughter.

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Old
01-31-2012, 01:22 AM
  #20
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My favourite (and a favourite of a portion of virtually every fanbase on here) is "we won't move him unless it's for a significant upgrade at X position". Then the opposing team says exactly the same thing and no trade would ever happen because every team wants to trade four quarters for a dollar.

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01-31-2012, 01:25 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Not trying to flame anyone. But the prime example of this was the Sedin vs Perry pre-Award thread.

I think maybe 30 different Canuck fans said that Perry's production wouldn't be nearly as high if he didn't have Getzlaf, Ryan, Visnovsky, Selanne, and Fowler.

As though Daniel Sedin got no help from his teammates. Especially his brother. And when I pointed how hypocritical they were being by using this point, they basically said I know nothing about hockey.

And that's another thing I hate about HF arguments. God forbid I make a legitimate argument that is a slight against someonelse's team because as a fan of a Californian team, I must not know anything about hockey.
Didn't think you were trying to flame anyone. I just wanted to say that the Canucks get the same thing, and it's a very familiar process for us.

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01-31-2012, 01:30 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeakOil View Post
My favourite (and a favourite of a portion of virtually every fanbase on here) is "we won't move him unless it's for a significant upgrade at X position". Then the opposing team says exactly the same thing and no trade would ever happen because every team wants to trade four quarters for a dollar.
But just think of the overall BALANCE!!! But on serious note sometimes its good to read because the emotional attachment some have. But I do enjoy when said player is traded and its not the value people claim to get and then they explode. (No mike milbery trade talk intended)

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Old
01-31-2012, 01:30 AM
  #23
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Just to vent a little, my dad is completely biased against our own team when he watches hockey.

Hypothetically:

1. If the opposition dominates Vancouver in terms of possession and play, and the game ends up tied 3-3 (forget about shootouts), he'll complain that we were lucky to be in it, and that the other team was clearly alot better than us and plays with way more skill.

2. If Vancouver dominates the opposition in terms of possession and play, and the game ends up tied 3-3 (forget about shootouts), he'll complain that the other team is way better offensively than us and we were lucky they didn't turn it up, because all they needed was a few chances to bury it.

Both scenarios happen constantly. We could have won or lost the game, it doesn't make a difference.

Also, if we're blowing out a team 5-0, he'll focus on how bad the other team must be, if we're getting blown out 5-0, he'll focus on how bad Vancouver is.

He's also one of those guys who believe that every time we cross the blueline, we're expected to be able to enter the zone by manufacturing tic-tac-toe passing plays and he'll groan whenever we dump and chase or make a safe play instead. I can't for the life of me explain how risky and impractical a cross-ice pass entering the blue-line is and how likely off-sides are if they attempt what he's preaching.

Really really frustrating.

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Old
01-31-2012, 01:36 AM
  #24
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+/- is a worthless stat.

Player X's +/- is better than average and plays against top lines.

Well of course he has a +/- of -8, he's always out there against top lines.

+/- is still worthless.

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01-31-2012, 01:40 AM
  #25
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Player x is more valuable to team y(aka current team) than any other team.

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