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Old
01-31-2012, 07:07 AM
  #26
19canuck90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
just so toronto fans can stop their silly comments about whether franson for raymond is decent value or not... PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THE DRAFT PICKS IN THE OP PROPOSAL

call it crabb for raymond which in anyone's opinion is a HUGE WIN for Toronto and then Franson for all the picks...

and Franson may end up being a decent top 4 dman... I will grant you that... but the OP is offering a ton of picks for him.

Toronto has Phaneuf and Komarsek signed to a ton of money... and Schenn coming along to take Komasek's place... and then just signed Liles and picked up Gardiner so you got a pretty damn good mix of 'grit and offense' already in place for the top 4 and then there are all the other guys kicking around to fill the other 2-3 spots so Franson is a decent player but the picks are way more value and way more then any other team would ever give up for Franson at this point in his career.

dont embarrass yourselves toronto fans... jump all over this proposal. if you actually dont like Raymond then just send him to someone else for like a second rounder and its still a HUGE WIN proposal for Toronto
I think you might have missed me modifying the picks after getting flamed so hard for overpaying but if not thank you lol

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Old
01-31-2012, 07:15 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19canuck90 View Post
I say this in the OP, originally the deal had more in way of picks yet i got flamed for overpaying...

The Leafs being fast is not a negative for Raymond as it means he will fit in.
Yeah the first deal that included Van's 1st rounder was overpayment by them.

The deal is pretty even I'd say, maybe even slight overpayment by Vancouver still since it's essentially Franson for Raymond + 2nd and Crabb for a 3rd.

It's just not something we'd do since it's a lateral move at best for us.

Franson just has something that our other defenders don't: he's a big mobile defenseman with a bomb from the point that gets through more often than not.

Raymond is a 40-50 point 2nd/3rd line two way forward that has speed, something we have more of than we have of players like Franson.

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Old
01-31-2012, 07:22 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamosko99 View Post
Yeah the first deal that included Van's 1st rounder was overpayment by them.

The deal is pretty even I'd say, maybe even slight overpayment by Vancouver still since it's essentially Franson for Raymond + 2nd and Crabb for a 3rd.

It's just not something we'd do since it's a lateral move at best for us.

Franson just has something that our other defenders don't: he's a big mobile defenseman with a bomb from the point that gets through more often than not.

Raymond is a 40-50 point 2nd/3rd line two way forward that has speed, something we have more of than we have of players like Franson.
Yeah i know Raymond isn't exactly what the Leafs are looking for (although he would have a place and would probably be pretty good).

I was trying to work the deal and Raymond was the only forward who was movable and we dont have the D depth to give you nor do you need it. So thats why in the first proposal i gave so much in way of picks, to add some serious value to entice the leafs to do it.

So it seems the difference between not getting the deal and over paying is a first round pick and the NYI 3rd changing to the Van 3rd, so is there a deal to be had in the middle?

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Old
01-31-2012, 07:27 AM
  #29
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if u want franson + Crabb

it will be for one of: (in a package)

Sedins
Kesler
Edler
Hodgson
Burrows
Schneider

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Old
01-31-2012, 07:36 AM
  #30
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Leafs need size and don't want picks. We are trying to make playoffs.

Value is alright but bad move for leafs given the current state of team.

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Old
01-31-2012, 07:37 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIDGENO8771 View Post
if u want franson + Crabb

it will be for one of: (in a package)

Sedins
Kesler
Edler
Hodgson
Burrows
Schneider
Keep them then, for a fringe top 4 dman(at least on the Canucks) and a 4th liner, definitely not worth it

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Old
01-31-2012, 07:57 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by LuiLui View Post
Keep them then, for a fringe top 4 dman(at least on the Canucks) and a 4th liner, definitely not worth it
shouldnt respond to trolls.. you only encourage them to waste more resources here in the future

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Old
01-31-2012, 08:16 AM
  #33
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I can't believe some of the Leafs fan are saying no to this, this is a highway robbery by us if it indeed happened.

I love Franson's game but if u get a top 6 player with blazing speed like raymond, along with 1st round pick in a deep draft and couple extra picks, I wouldn't think twice. Not to mention we have abundance of top 4 d-man on the blue-line.

I wouldn't do this if I were a Canuck, Raymond is more than fair for Franson.

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Old
01-31-2012, 08:26 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Lupes View Post
I can't believe some of the Leafs fan are saying no to this, this is a highway robbery by us if it indeed happened.

I love Franson's game but if u get a top 6 player with blazing speed like raymond, along with 1st round pick in a deep draft and couple extra picks, I wouldn't think twice. Not to mention we have abundance of top 4 d-man on the blue-line.

I wouldn't do this if I were a Canuck, Raymond is more than fair for Franson.
Raymond is a good player, but not what the Leafs need. The second round pick gives the Leafs a 25% chance of getting an NHLer, let alone a player of Fransons ilk. Does not address the needs of the Leafs. Draft picks do not denote guaranteed NHL players.

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Old
01-31-2012, 08:33 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
shouldnt respond to trolls.. you only encourage them to waste more resources here in the future
But we need an upgrade as Leafs, not a downgrade or picks. We want the CUP, and Playoffs, not rebuild.

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Old
01-31-2012, 08:40 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by IrishPaulie View Post
Makes Toronto's bottom-6 softer and their defense weaker. Don't know why the Leafs would make this deal.
We have a winner!

Not a chance this deal happens

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Old
01-31-2012, 08:44 AM
  #37
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Raymond is a fringe top 6 on this team, who does he even kick out?. Doesn't make us a better team, we have enough depth at our forward spot with Colby coming back soon. As if we didn't already have to send back someone to the minors...we don't need this.

What we really need is a front-line center, no more depth peices. I actually don't think we're committing "robbery" either. I'd take Franson over a late 2nd and 3rd. Raymond isn't an upgrade to what we have already.

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Old
01-31-2012, 09:12 AM
  #38
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May be a shock... but Cody Franson ain't leaving unless it's an overpayment. He's been phenomenal.

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Old
01-31-2012, 09:17 AM
  #39
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LMAO your not a canucks fan

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Old
01-31-2012, 09:20 AM
  #40
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Debating "fair value" only leads to childish arguments, and fair value is not why trades are made. Trades are made to help the respective teams accomplish their goals. In this case, both teams need to get better immediately.

The problem with this trade is that it really does very little to address the Leafs needs. Franson is a young guy who's been very good for us, Raymond is more of what we already have -- 2nd/3rd line wingers with speed. He's due a $2.6m qualifying offer, when the Leafs have other guys they'd rather give those positions to. Toronto doesn't need more guys that "fit in" with speed, they need guys who can elevate the size / physicality level while being able to keep up to the current pace of the team.

Toronto's defensive depth is the area that obviously draws all the attention because there's 5 young guys and 3 vets (2 of which are going nowhere), but the forward depth isn't that far behind either. With guys like Connolly/Bozak, Lombardi, Grabovski, MacArthur, Kulemin, Armstrong, Kadri, Frattin and Colborne, it's not like anyone can really suggest that what Toronto really needs is another 40-50 point winger. All this deal really accomplishes is moving "too much" defensive depth to "too much" forward depth. Considering Toronto is 6th in goals per game and 25th in goals against, you've gotta wonder which is the area that needs the help.

Something that all Vancouver fans should be aware of.... if you want a Toronto defenceman not named Komisarek, the forwards that the Leafs would be interested from Vancouver are Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, and maybe Booth/Hodgson if the price is too good to pass up. If there isn't a deal where you're prepared to trade one of those guys, that's fine, please shop for your defensive needs elsewhere.


Last edited by seanlinden: 01-31-2012 at 09:27 AM.
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Old
01-31-2012, 09:28 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Debating "fair value" only leads to childish arguments, and fair value is not why trades are made. Trades are made to help the respective teams accomplish their goals. In this case, both teams need to get better immediately.

The problem with this trade is that it really does very little to address the Leafs needs. Franson is a young guy who's been very good for us, Raymond is more of what we already have -- 2nd/3rd line wingers with speed. He's due a $2.6m qualifying offer, when the Leafs have other guys they'd rather give those positions to. Toronto doesn't need more guys that "fit in" with speed, they need guys who can elevate the size / physicality level while being able to keep up to the current pace of the team.

Toronto's defensive depth is the area that obviously draws all the attention because there's 5 young guys and 3 vets (2 of which are going nowhere), but the forward depth isn't that far behind either. With guys like Connolly/Bozak, Lombardi, Grabovski, MacArthur, Kulemin, Armstrong, Kadri, Frattin and Colborne, it's not like anyone can really suggest that what Toronto really needs is another 40-50 point winger. All this deal really accomplishes is moving "too much" defensive depth to "too much" forward depth. Considering Toronto is 6th in goals per game and 25th in goals against, you've gotta wonder which is the area that needs the help.

Something that all Vancouver fans should be aware of.... if you want a Toronto defenceman not named Komisarek, the forwards that the Leafs would be interested from Vancouver are Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, and maybe Booth/Hodgson if the price is too good to pass up. If there isn't a deal where you're prepared to trade one of those guys, that's fine, please shop for your defensive needs elsewhere.
Spot on my friend. If the deal doesn't adress the Leafs immediate need of size and physical agressiveness on the wing, there's no need to discuss.

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Old
01-31-2012, 10:10 AM
  #42
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Great offer OP.

But Franson's game has really picked up, and for that alone I say no.

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Old
01-31-2012, 10:13 AM
  #43
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Look, in principle you have a good idea here.. But here's the thing. A lot of Leaf fans have said they'd move Franson for a 2nd and an okay prospect. Crabb is the kind of 4th liner that could bring back a 3rd. So for Franson and Crabb the asking price should be something like Sauve, 2nd, 3rd.

I'd gladly do that as a Canucks fan, but since you want Raymond coming back as the centerpiece then let's swap. Raymond is easily worth that 2nd and 3rd, so really it's Raymond and a 3rd or another defensive prospect like Sauve.

I think you have a good basis here, but the value is far off. Ofcourse, this is speaking on the principle that the Leafs are okay with moving Franson for Raymond. As I said, I'd supplement picks to get the guy.

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Old
01-31-2012, 10:25 AM
  #44
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Look, in principle you have a good idea here.. But here's the thing. A lot of Leaf fans have said they'd move Franson for a 2nd and an okay prospect. Crabb is the kind of 4th liner that could bring back a 3rd. So for Franson and Crabb the asking price should be something like Sauve, 2nd, 3rd.

I'd gladly do that as a Canucks fan, but since you want Raymond coming back as the centerpiece then let's swap. Raymond is easily worth that 2nd and 3rd, so really it's Raymond and a 3rd or another defensive prospect like Sauve.

I think you have a good basis here, but the value is far off. Ofcourse, this is speaking on the principle that the Leafs are okay with moving Franson for Raymond. As I said, I'd supplement picks to get the guy.
Leafs fans were prepared to move Franson for a 2nd + prospect over 3 months ago when he was playing like garbage, in and out of the lineup, and his value was only falling because he wasn't playing. Now, he's been a consistent force on the backend with his strong puckmoving ability, and an increasingly reliable defensive / physical game. With Gunnarsson, Liles, Schenn, Franson, Gardiner and Komisarek, the Leafs are fairly happy with what they have back there. The only concerns are the #2 position (which Vancouver is not offering a solution for), and the cost, where Cody Franson at $800k isn't going to do anything.

The simple fact is -- we don't want a 2nd, we don't want some mediocre prospect, we don't want a 3rd, and we don't want Raymond.

What the Leafs want, and need, is a player who would instantly (and clearly) become the team's 2nd or 3rd best forward, 2nd best defenceman, or best goaltender. If Vancouver isn't willing to provide that, then the only defenceman that they can expect to get from Toronto is our cast-off (Komisarek).

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Old
01-31-2012, 11:35 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIDGENO8771 View Post
if u want franson + Crabb

it will be for one of: (in a package)

Sedins
Kesler
Edler
Hodgson
Burrows
Schneider


Last edited by LeX4cavalier: 01-31-2012 at 11:39 AM. Reason: out of those you mentioned franson + crabb would only get you schneider and that's a maybe
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Old
01-31-2012, 11:37 AM
  #46
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horrible deal for the nucks

The picks are just overkill

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Old
01-31-2012, 11:48 AM
  #47
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I don't get how this is such terrible value for the canucks.

Every single trade proposal on here for the Canucks is looking for a RHS #4/5 defenseman, yet i have yet to see any make any remote sense. This is exactly what we would get in Franson plus the guy is 6'5" costs $800,000 and is an RFA so we can retain him.

We also add Crabb who although im sure all of you have your leaf hate on and have probably never heard of the guy he is a definate fit in the bottom line on this team and could easily chip in goals.

We also save about $700,000 in cap space this year so it would add to our 2 mill in space at the cap and allow us to make even more deals, we could even replace raymond as we would actually have the room to add someone like a Ruutu or something just as an example.

If we don't want to give this up to get what we need then what are we doing here? I really don't give a **** about these picks since even if we kept them if we hadn't won a cup by the time they made this team anyways 4 years down the road everything would be a waste. Raymond is our only movable piece that has value its not like schneider is in this deal or something like that, and guys like Suave who someone mentioned above me have 0 value to the leafs since he would be like their 12th defenseman.

You gotta give to get and this is coming from one of the biggest Raymond homers there is. The fact the leafs barely even need Raymond we would need to overpay and im fine with that.

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Old
01-31-2012, 11:53 AM
  #48
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The value isn't awful, but I think Franson should get more. I wouldn't do it.

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Old
01-31-2012, 11:54 AM
  #49
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Love how Raymond is a "potential" 20g 40-50pt winger when he had 25g - 28a in his only full season.

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Old
01-31-2012, 11:56 AM
  #50
19canuck90
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Originally Posted by TheWiseguy View Post
Love how Raymond is a "potential" 20g 40-50pt winger when he had 25g - 28a in his only full season.
Because he has done it once is because hes a potential one, that was on the second line with Kesler who knows what he would get potentially playing the third line on a team like the leafs.

If a Leafs fan called Kulemin straight up a 30 goal 50 point player other fans would jump all over them, im trying to be objective here.

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