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Old
01-31-2012, 12:22 PM
  #76
arsmaster
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Franson is a 3rd pairing defensman on the Leafs...he is on the cusp of press box duty on a good team.

Hasn't played 20 minutes ONCE this year.

Im afraid that he has become SUPER overrated.

He's a below average defender with great size that he doesn't use. He can play 2nd unit PP.

He's a 6'4" MAB thus far in his career.

I really cant wrap my head around why some Canucks fans would move valuable assets and 1st round pick for a bottom pairing defensman and a marginal NHLer.

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01-31-2012, 12:24 PM
  #77
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Joey Crabb wouldnt even make the canucks line up

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01-31-2012, 12:44 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Leafs fans were prepared to move Franson for a 2nd + prospect over 3 months ago when he was playing like garbage, in and out of the lineup, and his value was only falling because he wasn't playing. Now, he's been a consistent force on the backend with his strong puckmoving ability, and an increasingly reliable defensive / physical game. With Gunnarsson, Liles, Schenn, Franson, Gardiner and Komisarek, the Leafs are fairly happy with what they have back there. The only concerns are the #2 position (which Vancouver is not offering a solution for), and the cost, where Cody Franson at $800k isn't going to do anything.

The simple fact is -- we don't want a 2nd, we don't want some mediocre prospect, we don't want a 3rd, and we don't want Raymond.

What the Leafs want, and need, is a player who would instantly (and clearly) become the team's 2nd or 3rd best forward, 2nd best defenceman, or best goaltender. If Vancouver isn't willing to provide that, then the only defenceman that they can expect to get from Toronto is our cast-off (Komisarek).
That pretty much says it, I suppose. I personally don't see much 1st line talent being available to Toronto for the pieces they have to offer. Toronto seems to have 8 NHL defensemen on the roster including an injured Liles. Whether Raymond is exactly what you need or not, he does seem like a guy you should be persuing if he were available for a guy that should be your 5th defenseman. Just a thought... Personally, I don't think I'd move Raymond for Franson..

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01-31-2012, 12:52 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
That pretty much says it, I suppose. I personally don't see much 1st line talent being available to Toronto for the pieces they have to offer. Toronto seems to have 8 NHL defensemen on the roster including an injured Liles. Whether Raymond is exactly what you need or not, he does seem like a guy you should be persuing if he were available for a guy that should be your 5th defenseman. Just a thought... Personally, I don't think I'd move Raymond for Franson..
Raymond serves no need to us. He is underperforming, is soft, and we already have plenty of team speed.

Franson can be a top 4 defenceman on our team but we have plenty of depth. No reason to trade someone who is playing great for a redundant part.

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01-31-2012, 12:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
That pretty much says it, I suppose. I personally don't see much 1st line talent being available to Toronto for the pieces they have to offer. Toronto seems to have 8 NHL defensemen on the roster including an injured Liles. Whether Raymond is exactly what you need or not, he does seem like a guy you should be persuing if he were available for a guy that should be your 5th defenseman. Just a thought... Personally, I don't think I'd move Raymond for Franson..
Well, there's not much first line talent available to anyone, but if there is, and his name isn't Jeff Carter, you better bet the Leafs will be frontrunners. In addition to having a ton of pieces / options for that team to choose from, Toronto has the cap flexibility and urgency to make the big splash that most top teams wouldn't make.

It's not a case of Raymond being "not exactly" what we need, it's a case of him not being anywhere close to what we need. He's a 2nd/3rd line winger who has 5 goals and 12 points in 24 games. Yes, he once scored 25 goals playing alongside Ryan Kesler, but Toronto has Kessel, Lupul, MacArthur & Grabovski who are on pace for 20+ this year. Kulemin had 30 last year, and Armstrong once had 22 as well. Throw in a versatile guy like Lombardi, a kid like Kadri who we're trying to develop, and there really is no room for Raymond. He's not the kind of player that you "make room for" either.

When it comes to the trade market right now for Toronto -- it really is a case of "go big or go home". Either big on talent, big on size, or ideally, big on both. Raymond isn't any of those... so a trade for him would really be nothing more than a shuffling of the deck that Toronto doesn't really need or want.

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01-31-2012, 01:01 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Franson is a 3rd pairing defensman on the Leafs...he is on the cusp of press box duty on a good team.

1.Hasn't played 20 minutes ONCE this year.

2.Im afraid that he has become SUPER overrated.

3.He's a below average defender with great size that he doesn't use. He can play 2nd unit PP.

He's a 6'4" MAB thus far in his career.

4.I really cant wrap my head around why some Canucks fans would move valuable assets and 1st round pick for a bottom pairing defensman and a marginal NHLer.
1.You're right he hasn't but deserves more...

2.Who overrates him?

3.He does use his size and is far from below average, most of the Canucks D is below average.

4. Mayson Raymond, a 2nd and a 3rd are not valuable assets, Mayson Raymond=Matthieu Lombardi, the 2nd and 3rd rounder are almost useless coming from Vancouver.

How ignorant are you?

Edit: He's actually second pairing.


Last edited by FishManSam: 01-31-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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01-31-2012, 01:03 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
1.You're right he hasn't but deserves more...

2.Who overrates him?

3.He does use his size and is far from below average, most of the Canucks D is below average.

4. Mayson Raymond, a 2nd and a 3rd are not valuable assets, Mayson Raymond=Matthieu Lombardi, the 2nd and 3rd rounder are almost useless coming from Vancouver.

How ignorant are you?
I love your last line.

Especially when you put it next to point #3.

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01-31-2012, 01:05 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Well, there's not much first line talent available to anyone, but if there is, and his name isn't Jeff Carter, you better bet the Leafs will be frontrunners. In addition to having a ton of pieces / options for that team to choose from, Toronto has the cap flexibility and urgency to make the big splash that most top teams wouldn't make. .

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01-31-2012, 01:06 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I love your last line.

Especially when you put it next to point #3.
Bieksa and Edler are the only two above average defensemen on your team, everyone else is under Franson, so if Franson is below average, my point still stands, the other defensemen are below average according to your standards.

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01-31-2012, 01:10 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
1.You're right he hasn't but deserves more...

2.Who overrates him?

3.He does use his size and is far from below average, most of the Canucks D is below average.

4. Mayson Raymond, a 2nd and a 3rd are not valuable assets, Mayson Raymond=Matthieu Lombardi, the 2nd and 3rd rounder are almost useless coming from Vancouver.

How ignorant are you?

Edit: He's actually second pairing.
Wow. #1-Salo, #2-Edler, #3-Hamhuis, #4- Bieksa, #5-Ballard, #6-Tanev.

Yeah your right, below average. Ha. coming from a leafs fan. Let's be reality here, Canucks have top 5-6 d core in the league. Give your head a shake

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01-31-2012, 01:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
Bieksa and Edler are the only two above average defensemen on your team, everyone else is under Franson, so if Franson is below average, my point still stands, the other defensemen are below average according to your standards.
LOL.

Any East Coaster commenting on the 'Nucks carries very little weight to me. I would imagine you dont stay up til' midnight EST to watch a team you dont like.

Hamhuis is below average...love that one, the same Dan Hamhuis who had his rights moved twice to ELITE franchises (Philly and Pitt).

Salo is underrated outside of Vancouver (Canuck fans know his true value).

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01-31-2012, 01:11 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
Bieksa and Edler are the only two above average defensemen on your team, everyone else is under Franson, so if Franson is below average, my point still stands, the other defensemen are below average according to your standards.
Hamhuis and Salo are worst than Franson, classic case of I only watch the leafs.

Salo is our best defencman.

That's like me saying Toronto have no defenceman better than Bieksa. Which is more of a realistic statement than the one you just gave.

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01-31-2012, 01:11 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by 19canuck90 View Post
They add a fast as **** 40-50 point solid two way forward who can play the PK while their depth on D is still fine. While also adding picks.
Sounds like what I think Matthew Lombardi is like. I'd rather wait to see if Lombo regains his form than trade Franson for a small speedy forward.

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01-31-2012, 01:16 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by medhatcanuck View Post
Hamhuis and Bieksa are worst than Franson, classic case of I only watch the leafs.

That's like me saying Toronto have no defenceman better than Bieksa. Which is more of a realistic statement than the one you just gave.
I watch any game that's on my listing, rarely is it a Vancouver game and when it is, I could see Franson easily replace any of your defensemen except Bieksa and Edler. To even hypothesize that Bieksa is better then all Leafs defensemen is ridiculous.

Your assumptions are dumb and all you do is assume. And I didn't say Bieksa was worse then Franson, learn to read.

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01-31-2012, 01:16 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
Bieksa and Edler are the only two above average defensemen on your team, everyone else is under Franson, so if Franson is below average, my point still stands, the other defensemen are below average according to your standards.
I just want to reiterate how classic this is.


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01-31-2012, 01:17 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
Bieksa and Edler are the only two above average defensemen on your team, everyone else is under Franson, so if Franson is below average, my point still stands, the other defensemen are below average according to your standards.

How many Canucks games have you watched in the past 2 years? I'm going to guess zero if you seriously think that Edler and Bieksa are "above average" and Hamhuis and Salo are worse than a guy in his 3rd season playing 16 minutes per night.

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01-31-2012, 01:19 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
I watch any game that's on my listing, rarely is it a Vancouver game and when it is, I could see Franson easily replace any of your defensemen except Bieksa and Edler. To even hypothesize that Bieksa is better then all Leafs defensemen is ridiculous.

Your assumptions are dumb and all you do is assume. And I didn't say Bieksa was worse then Franson, Learn to read.

Not a chance. Salo is our #1 and Hamhuis is our #3. IF franson were to get traded to the Canucks, he would be the #6 dman, behind ballard.

I didn't assume anything. U said frason is better than any canucks dman other than Bieksa and Edler.
#1. Bieksa is our 4th best dman, which means Hamhuis and salo are also better than Franson.
#2. Also if you watch hockey, you would realize that Bieksa, Edler, Hamhuis, and BIeksa are far better than Franson.
#3. If Franson can't crack Leafs top 4. He definately cannot crack vancouvers top 4.

Use common sense, it'll help you in the future.

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01-31-2012, 01:24 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post

How many Canucks games have you watched in the past 2 years? I'm going to guess zero if you seriously think that Edler and Bieksa are "above average" and Hamhuis and Salo are worse than a guy in his 3rd season playing 16 minutes per night.
16 hand picked minutes against 3rd and 4th lines, with 2nd unit PP time.

Its hilarious.

The guy ranked 8th in avg. ice time on his own team is better than 2 proven veteran defensman who draw actual top 6 NHL talent.

The last few days have been great for laughs on this forum.

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01-31-2012, 01:31 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by medhatcanuck View Post
Noone ever said Franson was useless, we're just saying theres not a chance he is better than any of top 4, not even close.

I actually think Franson would be a great #5-6 dman for the canucks.

that's it. that's all we're saying. You just said something completely ridiculous and we called you out on it. That's it.
First post top of page four. "He would be in the press box on a good team" i.e. useless.

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01-31-2012, 01:31 PM
  #95
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Don't see the point. The Leafs have plenty of Mason Raymond type forwards, he'd just be another one.

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01-31-2012, 01:32 PM
  #96
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2nd pairing on the PP, does not equate to playing the 2nd pairing 5 on 5, nor does he kill penalties.

Cody is a talented offensive player, but he's a bottom pairing defensman on the leafs...

You rating him above Hamhuis and Salo speaks to your wealth of knowledge...

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01-31-2012, 01:34 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
First post top of page four. "He would be in the press box on a good team" i.e. useless.
He was in the press box on your team this YEAR.

He is a 5/6/7th defensman on teams with Cup hopes. TRUTH! He's a 5/6/7th defensman on a marginal playoff team currently.

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01-31-2012, 01:36 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
First post top of page four. "He would be in the press box on a good team" i.e. useless.
OK nm, if he sat on Leafs pressbox, than he definately is a pressbox player. That doesn't mean he's useless though.

and no leafs do not have a top 7 d core in the nhl

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01-31-2012, 01:40 PM
  #99
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K I'm done with these leafs shennangins.

Last night with the Kadri, Komisarek and 2nd for Kesler
and today with the Franson > Salo and Hamhuis.

The portion of Leafs nation that only watch leafs, do some homework, and get smart.

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01-31-2012, 01:43 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
He was in the press box on your team this YEAR.

He is a 5/6/7th defensman on teams with Cup hopes. TRUTH! He's a 5/6/7th defensman on a marginal playoff team currently.
We barely even use traditional pairings. Everyone is all over the place. For example, Liles has spent most of the season on our "third pairing", yet he's never been a third pairing d-man throughout his career and he's on pace for similar numbers as the rest of his career.

Because of our depth on D, a lot of D-men end up playing less minutes than they might otherwise. The only d-men we have who actually play like third pairing D-men are Komisarek and Aulie - yet everyone except Phaneuf has seen time on the "third pairing".

Anyway, on franson in particular - he was scratched at the beginning of the season because RW insisted on playing Komi (which I understand, he's the veteran, and he was playing better than he had been before). Once Komi got injured, Franson got to play and really impressed - hence him keeping his spot in the line-up despite Komi now being healthy.

The buzz out of Nashville when we got him was that he had a great shot, and decent offensive instincts, but that he was fairly soft for his size and not all that great defensively. I wasn't expecting much, but he's really been a pleasant surprise for the leafs. He's no Luke Schenn from a physical standpoint, but he certainly uses his size and is definitely not soft. He's also been quite reliable defensively (admittedly not being used in a top pairing role, though he has played significant minutes in many games).

Offensively, he is as advertised. A decent passer, and a very deceptive shot (very quick release, and quite accurate). Definitely a great guy to have on your second PP unit.

On the canucks, he'd occupy a similar role as he does on the leafs. I don't see him making your top four (he's definitely not as good as edler, bieksa, salo, and hamhuis), but he can play twenty minutes a night and be defensively reliable. I think the fit with vancouver would actually be quite good given that they play a very similar style to toronto, with a fast, offense based game involving aggressive d-men.

However, I agree with those saying that it doesn't make sense to give up more than Raymond and some decent picks. Problem is, neither Raymond nor the picks are particularly helpful to Toronto at the moment. So I think the player fits quite well, but the trade value doesn't.

TL;DR - decent proposal, ultimately probably not all that realistic though.

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