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Metro Seattle: NHL, NBA and Arena - Part II

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02-02-2012, 10:52 AM
  #151
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Lets get this thread back on track -- Recent News:

NHL Executive Vice President, Bill Daly, plays down Quebec and talks up Seattle...

La Presse, January 29, 2012 (translated):
"Yes we can. Yes you can write that the Coyotes could move to Quebec City next year. But you must also add that other cities, as well as Quebec, could inherit the Coyotes...Seattle, like Quebec, [are both cities where an] arena has yet to be built. Existing infrastructure - the Colosseum and the Key Arena, which served as home to the SuperSonics basketball club before being relocated to Oklahoma City - could serve as a temporary solution.

Our relationship with the people of Quebec are still very good and their application is not worse than it was. But I think the passion with which you follow the case and the interest for the return of the League in Quebec gave the impression that things were more advanced than they actually are."

To make this private arena project profitable, it will require both the NBA and the NHL...

Le Soliel, January 30, 2012 (translated):
"Our efforts are serious. There are several private groups are competing to build an arena, and what motivates them at the base is an NHL franchise," said an influential person working with the group to give Seattle franchises for both the NBA and the NHL. In order not to undermine the efforts of investors, this insider of the Seattle sports scene prefers to remain anonymous.

But on the West Coast, the NHL is not a consolation prize for the NBA. "This is a very attractive market, there is a beautiful story of hockey here. We have many links to and rivalry with Vancouver. And we have an incredible number of billionaires in the region who are willing to support professional teams," says the businessman, who now devotes much of his energy to drive this. "The desire of the business community is to have two sports: basketball and hockey. The two go together."

"I am aware of the involvement of several investors. This is very serious," says Craig Kinzer, a well known property developer in the region and former president of the Seattle Chamber of Commerce. "For our investors, it is natural to aim for the NBA and the NHL... To be profitable here, it takes all three (NBA, NHL and arena)." Investors feel in recent months that all of these conditions could be met shortly, the businessman concludes.

We have a motivated Seattle Mayor and a motivated Arena Developer...

The Seattle Times, January 13, 2012:
Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn signed a $19,500-per-month contract in July with sports-facilities consultant Carl Hirsh to advise the city on the development of a new sports facility that could draw an NBA team back to town.

Hirsh said many pieces remain to be put together to make a new arena work in Seattle. And he reiterated what the mayor and council members have said, that there is no firm proposal. But he said the developer is very motivated (Chris Hansen).

"Do I think it will be easy? No. Do I think we can put together a deal? Yes."

A deal also might help resurrect the political fortunes of McGinn, who in August lost the fight over the waterfront tunnel, which he stridently opposed, and suffered defeat of a proposed $60 vehicle-license fee, which he favored.

Christian Sinderman, a political consultant, said that while the number of people who want professional basketball returned to Seattle is high, the number who think it's essential is low.

Building a new arena and bringing a team back "is not a political game-changer," Sinderman said.

But he did acknowledge that if an arena got built under terms favorable to the city, "It could show that this mayor is capable of cutting a deal and delivering."

Levin is not the one working with Hansen...

NBC King 5 News, January 4, 2012
Don Levin has watched the Puget Sound’s arena talk closely, and acknowledges now from his office in Chicago, it’s time for the people to step forward. “Time is of the essence,” says the owner of the American Hockey League’s Chicago Wolves. “A city needs to step up.”

“We know Don Levin. A good man and a good hockey owner,” wrote NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly in an email Wednesday. But, he added, “We have had no recent discussions or communications with him.”

Daly also denied that the league had any further discussions with a Seattle ownership group. Multiple sources say there is one other investor or group, besides Levin, interested in bringing the NHL to the Seattle-area.

Levin said he can’t build the arena, but would like to partner with an NBA ownership group to fill a new facility. He denied recent suggestions that he’d been lobbying or working with an NBA group to make that happen.

He also said he hasn’t been contacted by a San Francisco-based hedge fund, Valiant Partners (Chris Hansen), about the fund's recent purchase of three acres south of Safeco Field. Valiant bought the land from a Seattle businessman for $21.6 million, almost $3 million more than the land's assessed value. The deal for the parcel closed on December 6th. The land is located just south of the Safeco Field parking garage. The seller has declined comment on the deal.

Hansen's NBA group, which includes Wally Walker, is working with one of two Seattle NHL groups...

The Seattle Times, December 23, 2011
A wealthy San Francisco hedge-fund manager is the lead investor seeking to build a sports arena south of Safeco Field to lure an NBA basketball team back to Seattle, according to two sources briefed on the effort.

Christopher Hansen, 43, who has roots in Seattle and now heads Valiant Capital Management LLC, in San Francisco, is working with an investor group whose proposal has yet to be publicly unveiled.

Hansen, described by one source as a multimillionaire, could not be reached for comment Friday. He previously lived in Seattle's Leschi neighborhood, public records show.

Hansen is working with a Bellevue man who would like to bring an NHL professional hockey team to Seattle to play in the arena, according to the source, who did not know the name of the Eastside participant. Both men understand they need each other to make the proposal work, the source said.


Among those involved in the Sodo plan is Wally Walker, the former Seattle Sonics player and team executive, sources said. Walker was a minority owner of the Sonics, serving as the team's president and general manager from 1994 until the team was sold to Clay Bennett in 2006. Bennett moved the team to Oklahoma City after failing to secure a new arena in Seattle and reaching a financial settlement with the city of Seattle. Bennett said KeyArena, where the Sonics played, lacked the amenities required to support an NBA franchise.

If built, the arena would add a third professional sports facility in the Sodo area, joining Safeco, home of the Seattle Mariners, and CenturyLink Field, home of the Seattle Seahawks and Seattle Sounders FC.

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02-02-2012, 11:19 AM
  #152
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I'm not a TO supporter or live in TO, but you're on thin ice there. I lived long enough in Sault Ste Marie (yeah, I saw Gretzky play for the Greyhounds), Guleph and London to understand a bit about Toronto and the OHL. The Marlies get as much support as you coudl expect, and it`s actually pretty good. But it would be like expecting a second tier professional football team in Texas to succeed. The amateurs (i.e., college in Texas and OHL in Ontario) and high school (or youth league) will always kill the second tier in that kind of market.

Do you know how many OHL teams there are in the GTA? True 'GTA' is 3 I think. Brampton, Mississauga, and Oshawa. There are others that would be considered Leafs cities. Guelph, Kitchener, Barrie, maybe Peterborough and Belleville.

As for Brampton and Mississauga, they only joined the OHL, simultaneously btw, in 1999 as expansion teams. Not a lot of tradition there.

Hamilton has it's own AHL team, so nobody from there is going to see the Junior Leafs. But even with all that, and the fact that they play downtown on the waterfront (not the prime place for the hockey minded in Toronto, btw), they still get almost 5000 fans a game... when those fans aren't too busy playing hockey or watching their kids at their hockey games.

and oh yeah.... which AHL team plays out of the Twin cities that you must be referring to when you claim such great support?


It's not the AHL, but Gopher hockey out draws all AHL teams and those kids could skate with most AHL clubs....sorry to throw the thread off track.

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02-02-2012, 11:33 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
Lets get this thread back on track -- Recent News:

NHL Executive Vice President, Bill Daly, plays down Quebec and talks up Seattle...

La Presse, January 29, 2012 (translated):
"Yes we can. Yes you can write that the Coyotes could move to Quebec City next year. But you must also add that other cities, as well as Quebec, could inherit the Coyotes...Seattle, like Quebec, [are both cities where an] arena has yet to be built. Existing infrastructure - the Colosseum and the Key Arena, which served as home to the SuperSonics basketball club before being relocated to Oklahoma City - could serve as a temporary solution.

Our relationship with the people of Quebec are still very good and their application is not worse than it was. But I think the passion with which you follow the case and the interest for the return of the League in Quebec gave the impression that things were more advanced than they actually are."
To make this private arena project profitable, it will require both the NBA and the NHL...

Le Soliel, January 30, 2012 (translated):
"Our efforts are serious. There are several private groups are competing to build an arena, and what motivates them at the base is an NHL franchise," said an influential person working with the group to give Seattle franchises for both the NBA and the NHL. In order not to undermine the efforts of investors, this insider of the Seattle sports scene prefers to remain anonymous.

But on the West Coast, the NHL is not a consolation prize for the NBA. "This is a very attractive market, there is a beautiful story of hockey here. We have many links to and rivalry with Vancouver. And we have an incredible number of billionaires in the region who are willing to support professional teams," says the businessman, who now devotes much of his energy to drive this. "The desire of the business community is to have two sports: basketball and hockey. The two go together."

"I am aware of the involvement of several investors. This is very serious," says Craig Kinzer, a well known property developer in the region and former president of the Seattle Chamber of Commerce. "For our investors, it is natural to aim for the NBA and the NHL... To be profitable here, it takes all three (NBA, NHL and arena)." Investors feel in recent months that all of these conditions could be met shortly, the businessman concludes.
We have a motivated Seattle Mayor and a motivated Arena Developer...

The Seattle Times, January 13, 2012:
Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn signed a $19,500-per-month contract in July with sports-facilities consultant Carl Hirsh to advise the city on the development of a new sports facility that could draw an NBA team back to town.

Hirsh said many pieces remain to be put together to make a new arena work in Seattle. And he reiterated what the mayor and council members have said, that there is no firm proposal. But he said the developer is very motivated (Chris Hansen).

"Do I think it will be easy? No. Do I think we can put together a deal? Yes."

A deal also might help resurrect the political fortunes of McGinn, who in August lost the fight over the waterfront tunnel, which he stridently opposed, and suffered defeat of a proposed $60 vehicle-license fee, which he favored.

Christian Sinderman, a political consultant, said that while the number of people who want professional basketball returned to Seattle is high, the number who think it's essential is low.

Building a new arena and bringing a team back "is not a political game-changer," Sinderman said.

But he did acknowledge that if an arena got built under terms favorable to the city, "It could show that this mayor is capable of cutting a deal and delivering."
Levin is not the one working with Hansen...

NBC King 5 News, January 4, 2012
Don Levin has watched the Puget Sound’s arena talk closely, and acknowledges now from his office in Chicago, it’s time for the people to step forward. “Time is of the essence,” says the owner of the American Hockey League’s Chicago Wolves. “A city needs to step up.”

“We know Don Levin. A good man and a good hockey owner,” wrote NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly in an email Wednesday. But, he added, “We have had no recent discussions or communications with him.”

Daly also denied that the league had any further discussions with a Seattle ownership group. Multiple sources say there is one other investor or group, besides Levin, interested in bringing the NHL to the Seattle-area.

Levin said he can’t build the arena, but would like to partner with an NBA ownership group to fill a new facility. He denied recent suggestions that he’d been lobbying or working with an NBA group to make that happen.

He also said he hasn’t been contacted by a San Francisco-based hedge fund, Valiant Partners (Chris Hansen), about the fund's recent purchase of three acres south of Safeco Field. Valiant bought the land from a Seattle businessman for $21.6 million, almost $3 million more than the land's assessed value. The deal for the parcel closed on December 6th. The land is located just south of the Safeco Field parking garage. The seller has declined comment on the deal.
Hansen's NBA group, which includes Wally Walker, is working with one of two Seattle NHL groups...

The Seattle Times, December 23, 2011
A wealthy San Francisco hedge-fund manager is the lead investor seeking to build a sports arena south of Safeco Field to lure an NBA basketball team back to Seattle, according to two sources briefed on the effort.

Christopher Hansen, 43, who has roots in Seattle and now heads Valiant Capital Management LLC, in San Francisco, is working with an investor group whose proposal has yet to be publicly unveiled.

Hansen, described by one source as a multimillionaire, could not be reached for comment Friday. He previously lived in Seattle's Leschi neighborhood, public records show.

Hansen is working with a Bellevue man who would like to bring an NHL professional hockey team to Seattle to play in the arena, according to the source, who did not know the name of the Eastside participant. Both men understand they need each other to make the proposal work, the source said.

Among those involved in the Sodo plan is Wally Walker, the former Seattle Sonics player and team executive, sources said. Walker was a minority owner of the Sonics, serving as the team's president and general manager from 1994 until the team was sold to Clay Bennett in 2006. Bennett moved the team to Oklahoma City after failing to secure a new arena in Seattle and reaching a financial settlement with the city of Seattle. Bennett said KeyArena, where the Sonics played, lacked the amenities required to support an NBA franchise.

If built, the arena would add a third professional sports facility in the Sodo area, joining Safeco, home of the Seattle Mariners, and CenturyLink Field, home of the Seattle Seahawks and Seattle Sounders FC.
Jawanda Puck, this thread you are doing a great job with. I wish you all the best.

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02-02-2012, 11:37 AM
  #154
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So a smaller league that would shut down in ten years, again. Like I said the NHL is not a charity. The NHL is not in Winnipeg becaus of obligation. It's there because it makes sense right now. In the late 1990's we almost lost all the prairie teams. There was not a significant drop in viewership. A new league is a fantasy and would collaspe, remember the 2004 WHA? Its not about nationalism its about money. If it does not, then they wont be there. I am not about to claim a league with its main office in NYC as Canadian. And if it is, it is a very poor job Maybe move the head office back to Toronto and then we'll talk. Maybe the NHLPA should also speak up as, well, but they don't care at all.
You've lost track of the original argument, that is to say, even with 8 or 9 Canadian NHL teams, over 2/3 of the league will still remain in the United States. Picking Quebec City over Seattle, presuming the latter is not ready for next season, would not compromise the league's US presence in any significant way.

Yes, the NHL won't have same US presence as the other 3 major leagues (NBA/NFL/MLB), but that is something that American hockey fans need to accept. The NHL will always have to carry more teams in Canada than its counterparts because of various factors, including the possibility of a rival league forming.

The "WHA" of the early 2000s should not be seen as a indicator of what would occur if the NHL only maintains 3 or 4 teams in Canada. A new league would have 5 or 6 Canadian markets that can host professional hockey and has the infrastructure/ownership to do it. The better comparison would be the original WHA. A shaky league financially but with several successful teams that could compete with the best of the NHL.

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02-02-2012, 11:48 AM
  #155
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Interesting, but again, yes the NHL would make more $ in Quebec,...but doesn't mean that it should be the only factor to look at in this decision and I hop they realize that....
I don't want to see the Coyotes move to Quebec, until ALL options of moving them to another US city, even besides Seattle, were exhausted.
Again, Quebec, should get an expansion team, instead of a relocated one.
You don't understand. In Quebec the NHL will be there yes for money, but mostly for the love of the game, for having those arenas filled and not have to use weird TV angles to make it look full on TV.

If the NHL wants money, they won't go to Seattle, they will pursue their dream of having a hockey team in the middle of the desert (LAS VEGAS NEVADA GAMBLERS HERE WE COME !)

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02-02-2012, 12:03 PM
  #156
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You've lost track of the original argument, that is to say, even with 8 or 9 Canadian NHL teams, over 2/3 of the league will still remain in the United States. Picking Quebec City over Seattle, presuming the latter is not ready for next season, would not compromise the league's US presence in any significant way.

Yes, the NHL won't have same US presence as the other 3 major leagues (NBA/NFL/MLB), but that is something that American hockey fans need to accept. The NHL will always have to carry more teams in Canada than its counterparts because of various factors, including the possibility of a rival league forming.

The "WHA" of the early 2000s should not be seen as a indicator of what would occur if the NHL only maintains 3 or 4 teams in Canada. A new league would have 5 or 6 Canadian markets that can host professional hockey and has the infrastructure/ownership to do it. The better comparison would be the original WHA. A shaky league financially but with several successful teams that could compete with the best of the NHL.
I don't disagree. I have said despite this thread QC needs to happen because the NHL needs money. However JP might have convinced me to move to Seattle . That is besides the point. There is no obligation for the NHL to keep teams in Canada. If Calagry, Edmonton,ect have problems attracting free agents now, why would they got to a knew league comprised of the unless they overpay? I don't see. A rival league would form, and then fall, again. The NHL is a business and it goes where the most money is. It is not obligated to keep teams in Winnipeg, QC if the Dollar is 65c and the same for Phoenix if the dollar is 1.05 like right now. If the ROC loses teams, it will not affect me personally, same if the move herer, except for some good PR which would last for a few months.

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02-02-2012, 12:05 PM
  #157
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You don't understand. In Quebec the NHL will be there yes for money, but mostly for the love of the game, for having those arenas filled and not have to use weird TV angles to make it look full on TV.

If the NHL wants money, they won't go to Seattle, they will pursue their dream of having a hockey team in the middle of the desert (LAS VEGAS NEVADA GAMBLERS HERE WE COME !)
Depends on whether the NHL will be looking short-term or long-term. A team in Seattle, assuming that it's a success to some degree, will mean more long-term profit for the NHL than a team in Quebec City. And to talk as if Quebec City won't get a team if Seattle does, is also not true. Almost assuredly Quebec City will get a team, and then the NHL get also get the financial benefit of that.

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02-02-2012, 12:24 PM
  #158
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It's not all about $ though, Quebec City people.
NBC would be kicking and screaming, just after signing a 2 billion contract. They didn't sign that, with the intent on seeing teams shipped off from the US to Canada.
If expansion teams come into Canada, that's something else right there.
Seems that Canadians are so blinded by getting teams from Whitehorse to St Johns, that they don't want to look at the whole equation.
Ok, just kidding about putting teams in Whitehorse and St Johns, but you get my point.
The NHL, doesn't want to be looked at as an oversized CFL in the states....and the more teams you have in Canada, without adding/keeping teams in the US, that just gives red meat to the haters in America.

Canadians would still tune into the SCF even if say Nashville and Florida played in it...
if Vancouver and Ottawa played in the SCF, an NBA regular season game between the Kings and the Bobcats, would probably get higher ratings on ESPN, in the US, than a SCF game between 2 Canadian teams.
In summary, don't forget the influence NBC has over this, if they were underneath their last deal, where they basically paid nothing for it, then it wouldn't be such a factor, not having more Canadian teams at the expense of US teams.


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02-02-2012, 01:35 PM
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Stolen from someone else but seems to sum up a lot of the pro QC crowd..

Their attitude against any American city, like Seattle getting a team before a Canadian one, (this is addressing if the Sharks are a "failure".)

By December of '91 everyone should have dropped their decades old allegiances to the Giants, A's. 49ers, Raiders and Warriors and started following hockey exclusively. Anything less is a complete and utter failure as an NHL market. [/sarcasm]

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02-02-2012, 01:47 PM
  #160
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It's not all about $ though, Quebec City people.
NBC would be kicking and screaming, just after signing a 2 billion contract. They didn't sign that, with the intent on seeing teams shipped off from the US to Canada.
If expansion teams come into Canada, that's something else right there.
Seems that Canadians are so blinded by getting teams from Whitehorse to St Johns, that they don't want to look at the whole equation.
Ok, just kidding about putting teams in Whitehorse and St Johns, but you get my point.
The NHL, doesn't want to be looked at as an oversized CFL in the states....and the more teams you have in Canada, without adding/keeping teams in the US, that just gives red meat to the haters in America.

Canadians would still tune into the SCF even if say Nashville and New Jersey played in it...
if Vancouver and Ottawa played in the SCF, an NBA regular season game between the Kings and the Bobcats, would probably get higher ratings on ESPN, in the US, than a SCF game between 2 Canadian teams.
In summary, don't forget the influence NBC has over this, if they were underneath their last deal, where they basically paid nothing for it, then it wouldn't be such a factor, not having more Canadian teams at the expense of US teams.
Not sure I totally understand your argument, hereandthere. NBC has a contract. I get that. I understand that you are saying that they would pay less for their contract if they knew the whole league were moving north of the border. But, I am not sure how much Phoenix plays into that. What is the market share of TV for the Coyotes in Phoenix? Will all of that disappear if they move to QC? Those would all be valid questions. I don't think that NBC thinks that Phoenix is worth 1/30 of the total value. Likely far far less. Or, am I missing something?

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02-02-2012, 01:52 PM
  #161
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It's not all about $ though, Quebec City people.
NBC would be kicking and screaming, just after signing a 2 billion contract. They didn't sign that, with the intent on seeing teams shipped off from the US to Canada.
If expansion teams come into Canada, that's something else right there.
Seems that Canadians are so blinded by getting teams from Whitehorse to St Johns, that they don't want to look at the whole equation.
Ok, just kidding about putting teams in Whitehorse and St Johns, but you get my point.
The NHL, doesn't want to be looked at as an oversized CFL in the states....and the more teams you have in Canada, without adding/keeping teams in the US, that just gives red meat to the haters in America.

Canadians would still tune into the SCF even if say Nashville and New Jersey played in it...
if Vancouver and Ottawa played in the SCF, an NBA regular season game between the Kings and the Bobcats, would probably get higher ratings on ESPN, in the US, than a SCF game between 2 Canadian teams.
In summary, don't forget the influence NBC has over this, if they were underneath their last deal, where they basically paid nothing for it, then it wouldn't be such a factor, not having more Canadian teams at the expense of US teams.
While I agree with this to an extent, I think the "NBC Factor" might be a little overplayed by some. I agree that if there are more American teams then there is more of a chance for there to be American teams in the SCF, however, I can't see NBC making a huge argument when Pacific coast teams, on average, have rarely been shown on NBC and to a lesser extent NBCSports/Versus.

The location that gets the Coyotes, in my mind, is going to be the location that can be provide stable ownership as soon as possible. This includes a state-of-the-art revenue producing arena ASAP. And until rumors/plans of arenas become truths and construction happens, I can't put one city ahead of the other.

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02-02-2012, 02:01 PM
  #162
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Not sure I totally understand your argument, hereandthere. NBC has a contract. I get that. I understand that you are saying that they would pay less for their contract if they knew the whole league were moving north of the border. But, I am not sure how much Phoenix plays into that. What is the market share of TV for the Coyotes in Phoenix? Will all of that disappear if they move to QC? Those would all be valid questions. I don't think that NBC thinks that Phoenix is worth 1/30 of the total value. Likely far far less. Or, am I missing something?
Not sure about the value of the Coyotes themselves in it (but you can't scoff at losing a Metro area of 4 million people for a Canadian one of 700k).
But, if NBC, could have a do over (even though they legally can't ask for it) if Phoenix moves to Quebec, 1 year after Atlanta moved to Winnipeg, I'm sure they would take it.
Seattle is roughly the same metro market population wise that Phoenix is and is in the Pacific Time zone (for at least 1/2 the year) as well, so that's a wash as far as population #'s and playing on the West Coast is concerned.

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02-02-2012, 02:06 PM
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While I agree with this to an extent, I think the "NBC Factor" might be a little overplayed by some. I agree that if there are more American teams then there is more of a chance for there to be American teams in the SCF, however, I can't see NBC making a huge argument when Pacific coast teams, on average, have rarely been shown on NBC and to a lesser extent NBCSports/Versus.

The location that gets the Coyotes, in my mind, is going to be the location that can be provide stable ownership as soon as possible. This includes a state-of-the-art revenue producing arena ASAP. And until rumors/plans of arenas become truths and construction happens, I can't put one city ahead of the other.
NBC kept the Canadians teams out of the winter classic until next year.

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02-02-2012, 02:06 PM
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Not sure about the value of the Coyotes themselves in it (but you can't scoff at losing a Metro area of 4 million people for a Canadian one of 700k).
But, if NBC, could have a do over (even though they legally can't ask for it) if Phoenix moves to Quebec, 1 year after Atlanta moved to Winnipeg, I'm sure they would take it.
Seattle is roughly the same metro market population wise that Phoenix is and is in the Pacific Time zone (for at least 1/2 the year) as well, so that's a wash as far as population #'s and playing on the West Coast is concerned.
Quebec City -Levis has 1 million people but your point is vaild.

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02-02-2012, 02:07 PM
  #165
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Not sure about the value of the Coyotes themselves in it (but you can't scoff at losing a Metro area of 4 million people for a Canadian one of 700k).
But, if NBC, could have a do over (even though they legally can't ask for it) if Phoenix moves to Quebec, 1 year after Atlanta moved to Winnipeg, I'm sure they would take it.
Seattle is roughly the same metro market population wise that Phoenix is and is in the Pacific Time zone (for at least 1/2 the year) as well, so that's a wash as far as population #'s and playing on the West Coast is concerned.
NBC was well aware of the Phoenix Coyotes struggles and the possibility of relocation to a Canadian market.

They decided to sign the contract in spite of it.

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02-02-2012, 02:08 PM
  #166
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that just gives red meat to the haters in America.
Could you produce one of these serious, passionate hockey fans that would watch the NHL if it just didn't have any teams from that silly little frozen dump Canada? I'm serious.

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Canadians would still tune into the SCF even if say Nashville and New Jersey played in it
You have been repeating a version of this line since basically your first post. "Canadians will still buy it no matter what, so who gives a ****?". That you still don't seem to see how hilariously insulting it is is pretty amazing.

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if Vancouver and Ottawa played in the SCF, an NBA regular season game between the Kings and the Bobcats, would probably get higher ratings on ESPN, in the US, than a SCF game between 2 Canadian teams.
In that case, perhaps the league should rig it so that only American teams make the cup finals, to build the fanbase? The one that doesn't need any help and is equal to Canada, of course.

I'm not even going to touch expansion. This league's a complete financial mess, and it has no business even thinking about expansion for the next decade or maybe even more.

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02-02-2012, 02:32 PM
  #167
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Could you produce one of these serious, passionate hockey fans that would watch the NHL if it just didn't have any teams from that silly little frozen dump Canada? I'm serious.



You have been repeating a version of this line since basically your first post. "Canadians will still buy it no matter what, so who gives a ****?". That you still don't seem to see how hilariously insulting it is is pretty amazing.


1. I'm sure that it wouldn't make it worse, in the US. If anything, not saying I'm in favor of ****** Canada of its teams, it would probably HELP hockey in the US.

2. Don't Canadians say that about themselves, at least indirectly? Why is it insulting?

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02-02-2012, 02:34 PM
  #168
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It's not all about $ though, Quebec City people.
NBC would be kicking and screaming, just after signing a 2 billion contract. They didn't sign that, with the intent on seeing teams shipped off from the US to Canada.
If expansion teams come into Canada, that's something else right there.
Seems that Canadians are so blinded by getting teams from Whitehorse to St Johns, that they don't want to look at the whole equation.
Ok, just kidding about putting teams in Whitehorse and St Johns, but you get my point.
The NHL, doesn't want to be looked at as an oversized CFL in the states....and the more teams you have in Canada, without adding/keeping teams in the US, that just gives red meat to the haters in America.

Canadians would still tune into the SCF even if say Nashville and Florida played in it...
if Vancouver and Ottawa played in the SCF, an NBA regular season game between the Kings and the Bobcats, would probably get higher ratings on ESPN, in the US, than a SCF game between 2 Canadian teams.
In summary, don't forget the influence NBC has over this, if they were underneath their last deal, where they basically paid nothing for it, then it wouldn't be such a factor, not having more Canadian teams at the expense of US teams.
The NHL can't afford, and never will be able to afford to make the canadian fan base angry. You boast the 200M$/year NBC contracy, but you forget that the combined canadian contracts rake in 190M$/year.

Any business that takes it's anchor market for granted will have problems down the road. Business 101.

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02-02-2012, 02:36 PM
  #169
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NBC was well aware of the Phoenix Coyotes struggles and the possibility of relocation to a Canadian market.

They decided to sign the contract in spite of it.
With nervous prayers behind that part of it. That, or Bettman told them, in secret, that QC is only an absolute last resort, instead of the 1st choice most Canadians are trying to sell it as.

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02-02-2012, 02:43 PM
  #170
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I'm not a TO supporter or live in TO, but you're on thin ice there. I lived long enough in Sault Ste Marie (yeah, I saw Gretzky play for the Greyhounds), Guleph and London to understand a bit about Toronto and the OHL. The Marlies get as much support as you coudl expect, and it`s actually pretty good. But it would be like expecting a second tier professional football team in Texas to succeed. The amateurs (i.e., college in Texas and OHL in Ontario) and high school (or youth league) will always kill the second tier in that kind of market.

Do you know how many OHL teams there are in the GTA? True 'GTA' is 3 I think. Brampton, Mississauga, and Oshawa. There are others that would be considered Leafs cities. Guelph, Kitchener, Barrie, maybe Peterborough and Belleville.

As for Brampton and Mississauga, they only joined the OHL, simultaneously btw, in 1999 as expansion teams. Not a lot of tradition there.

Hamilton has it's own AHL team, so nobody from there is going to see the Junior Leafs. But even with all that, and the fact that they play downtown on the waterfront (not the prime place for the hockey minded in Toronto, btw), they still get almost 5000 fans a game... when those fans aren't too busy playing hockey or watching their kids at their hockey games.

and oh yeah.... which AHL team plays out of the Twin cities that you must be referring to when you claim such great support?


Toronto may be the self proclaimed centre of the universe, and for that we can all hate the city and its influence on TSN's SportsCentre. I certainly do. But I would never question whether or not the GTA is a hockey centre.
Shouldn't really matter if those junior teams have no tradition in the GTA. If it was a hockey town they would consistently draw sellouts. They don't.

AS for the Marlies, considering it's a city of approx. 6 million, combined with the fact they offer cheap source of entertainment relative to the Leafs, they should be drawing better. They have consistently draw in the bottom half of the AHL since their relocation from St. John's.

http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...e&season_id=37

AS for the Twin CIties, not only have the Wild sold out for 10+ seasons, followed by near sellouts the last couple season, their college team, the Gophers, sell out their 10,000 seat arena on a regular basis. In addition, high school hockey is the most popular of high school sports in Minnesota - even more popular than football - and this culminates in a culminates in the Minnesota State Boys' High School Hockey Tournament held at the Xcel Energy Center which breaks attendance records of 120,000 each year.

http://www.vintageminnesotahockey.com/MNHSlHockey.html

The Twin Cities are a hockey town. Toronto is Leafs town. I stand by this.

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02-02-2012, 02:48 PM
  #171
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Shouldn't really matter if those junior teams have no tradition in the GTA. If it was a hockey town they would consistently draw sellouts. They don't.

AS for the Marlies, considering it's a city of approx. 6 million, combined with the fact they offer cheap source of entertainment relative to the Leafs, they should be drawing better. They have consistently draw in the bottom half of the AHL since their relocation from St. John's.

http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...e&season_id=37

AS for the Twin CIties, not only have the Wild sold out for 10+ seasons, followed by near sellouts the last couple season, their college team, the Gophers, sell out their 10,000 seat arena on a regular basis. In addition, high school hockey is the most popular of high school sports in Minnesota - even more popular than football - and this culminates in a culminates in the Minnesota State Boys' High School Hockey Tournament held at the Xcel Energy Center which breaks attendance records of 120,000 each year.

http://www.vintageminnesotahockey.com/MNHSlHockey.html

The Twin Cities are a hockey town. Toronto is Leafs town. I stand by this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTHL

Largest minor hockey org in the WORLD.

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02-02-2012, 03:06 PM
  #172
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTHL

Largest minor hockey org in the WORLD.
Biggest high school tournament in the U.S. , maybe the world with recording-breaking crowds at Xcel Energy Center.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_sc...y_in_Minnesota

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02-02-2012, 03:10 PM
  #173
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Biggest high school tournament in the U.S. , maybe the world with recording-breaking crowds at Xcel Energy Center.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_sc...y_in_Minnesota
Most prestigious pee-wee tournament? The Quebec International Pee-Wee Tournament.

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02-02-2012, 03:15 PM
  #174
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTHL

Largest minor hockey org in the WORLD.
so your argument is no one watches minor hockey in toronto because they're all playing it. Interesting.

Agreed with blueandgold guy to an extent. I would say the fanbase is snobbish, unless its perceived "the best" it won't get attendance. Hence CFL, Minor league hockey, dini petty studio audience, etc.

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02-02-2012, 04:01 PM
  #175
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The Twin Cities are a hockey town. Toronto is Leafs town. I stand by this.
I stand by thinking your statement is ridiculous. let's be fair, though... I never said that TO was a better hockey town than the twin cities (which I still believe, thouth, btw, regardless of the gophers 20 home sellouts).

but to say that is it NOT a hockey town is... yeah, it's patently ridiculous. by those standards, there are NO hockey towns in North America... except the Tiwn Cities apparently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Shouldn't really matter if those junior teams have no tradition in the GTA. If it was a hockey town they would consistently draw sellouts. They don't.

AS for the Marlies, considering it's a city of approx. 6 million, combined with the fact they offer cheap source of entertainment relative to the Leafs, they should be drawing better.

I find it humourous that you would think that the OHL team with Oshawa on its jersey should sell out constantly because the GTA is 6 million people. or that the marlies should be drawing people from Uxbridge down to the waterfront to go to an AHL game. I'm getting the impression you don't know much about the area.

but claiming that the gophers could compete with an AHL team pretty much sums up the way your'e thinking here.

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